As I'm new to this site, apologies if this is a dumb question!

What is the definition of a puppy farm and how does it differ from a breeder who might have lots of breeding bitches, with many litters each year. Having just acquired a puppy, I was surprised to see just how many dogs were in the house with 3 recent litters. Is this normal?

thanks

Nope........don'tthink this sounds like a responsible breeder

It is less about numbers and more about reasons and care for the breed, the dogs and rearing of the litters.  Rearing puppies correctly takes a lot of time and commitment and stretching this to more than one litter needs a lot of time and not something a repuytable breeder would normaly undertake, unless the breeds have tiny litters.

These links especially the first will help you make up yoru mind what sort of breeder this was.
http://www.dogplay.com/GettingDog/breedercomparison.htm
http://www.dogplay.com/Breeding/index.html

We just bought a GSD puppy from mid Wales.The breeder there had two breeding bitches with litters at approx 8 weeks apart.A more caring breeder would be hard to find.
As many of you know mid/west Wales has its fair share of the puppy farms . If you have a doubt over a breeder ask the local vet.They would possibly know and be able to advise.
I agree with Brainless its less about numbers and more about care.
H.B.

one thing to remeber is that bitches often bring other bitches in season,so litters can be justifiably close together (in some cases)

I had two litters last year back to back I would not define myself as a puppy farmer.  This year I will possibly have 3 as I am looking for a 'special' bitch to show.  My bitches are all kept in the best of condition and all the puppies go to the most loving homes.  I think sometimes the term puppy farmer is too freely used as a lot of the top breeders have quite a few breeds and have numerous litters per year to get the best dogs.  Although mine are kept as pets first and showing and breeding stock 2nd.  I agree with Michelle as well that bitches do have this habit of setting each other off.  We currently have two dallies and Beagie in season all at once.:rolleyes:

Karen

Hi Karen,

Out of interest, how many Dal litters have you had already and over how many years? 

regards, Teri

I see you only started breeding in 2001 and have bred 56 puppies before the end of 2005 - doesn't it freak you out that you could get 10 or 20 (or even more ) of these back at any given time?  And you're planning three litters this year - possibly a further 24/36+ puppies - for a "special bitch to show"   

My experience of Dalmatians is somewhat limited  :rolleyes:  Is it really that hit and miss in your breed to produce a prospective show quality puppy    If that were the case in my breed I'd buy one in!

regards Teri

There should be one or two from every litter (perhaps more from such big litters) that would show promise. Personally I'd wait to see how a litter turned out before planning the next generation - running on the most promising and seeing how it'd done after several months of showing. Unless of course the litter was entirely the wrong sex - or worse, no-hopers, in which case I'd rethink everything, because obviously something was very wrong with my ideas.

>Unless of course the litter was entirely the wrong sex - or worse, no-hopers, in which case I'd rethink everything, because obviously something was very wrong with my ideas

Yes, that's what I would have thought :)  The breeders I've had dogs from who have had more than one litter have had dogs winning their titles or CCs and RCCs from every litter they've produced.   Litter size is on average about 8 for my breed so similar to yours I think?   

Average litter size is 8, but to be fair the random nature of the decoration of dals can make or break an otherwise good puppy. I'd certainly expect Crufts qualifiers, for example, from every litter - ticket winners can be more difficult!

I have had both!

Karen

I personally would not have mopre than one litter at anyone time nor would I buy from someone who did - just my own opinion.  How can all of these puppies get the socialisation they need.  My previous litter of 10 puppies and after care of my bitch took up ALL of my time, I wouldnt have had time for an other litter.  How would you cope with taking back puppies from each litter if things did not work out?  If you are that desperate for a show bitch and cant get this from one litter why dont you buy one in from a good kennel. 

Hi Liisa

>How would you cope with taking back puppies from each litter if things did not work out?

That would be my biggest worry too!   Teri :)

I ensure they go to good homes in the first place!    And actually Lissa consider myself a good kennel although I am not a kennel people who have been showing a good deal more years than I have have not had the success I have 

Karen

Ensuring they go to good homes is the first stage, but no one can see what is ahead, divorce, death, unemployment the list is endless as to why pups/dogs get returned to breeders and not all breeders are interested, no one is questioning your ability to vet and find good homes.  Its easy to point the finger and say no one should breed more than one litter and its easy to say why people do breed but what cannot be denied is that some people are breeding for money not to improve the breed or breed with a view to adding to their dogs.

Exactly not all breeders are interested but I am and IF the situation arises I will do what I did with Bud go and collect him and bring him home and find him a new home.

Karen

To be honest we would all find it difficult if several pups bounced at whatever age at the same time, this could as easily be some from the same only litter as from different litters over time.

A responsible breeder would help and make provision somehow.

The most common age to ahve pups bounce is 8 months to 2 years, which is why I would prefer to only breed once a year to minismise the chances of these early bounces.

After that it is sad but true that you can have them need rehoming at any age right up to geriatrics, especially due to owners death or divorce.

Karen

I didnt mean to offend you and apologise if I did.  By kennel I mean breeder.  Also the way you worded your post mislead me.  I still cant understand why you would need to breed 3 litters to find one show - maybe its me but I just cant get my head around it. Sorry.

Teri in that time I have only had two puppies go wrong and been returned and that was last year.  If I thought for one possible moment that they were all going to be returned a majority of them of course I wouldnt breed them.  I havent actually bred 56 puppies I have actually brought up around I think it was 49 as we have lost 7 puppies in the first couple of days.

You are right it is hit and miss hence the reason it takes me so long to have the right puppy.  I have been very very lucky I managed to get a champion out of my very first litter.  I would like to say it was me having a eye for a good puppy but it wasnt I was lucky.  Out of my 2nd litter I kept two puppies one of whom is a git with other dogs so cant be shown the other one has RCC and is very lightly shown.  There was nothing good enough in the 3rd litter in the 4th litter the one I wanted to keep was a uni.  The 5th litter again I was not sure enough to keep one.

I dont want or need to buy a bitch in why should I when I have got perfectly good breeding stock who are capable of producing good quality puppies.  Anybody who has a good bitch with excellent prospects and shows is not going to let it go.   I dont know what your circumstances are but I am avid shower and to show it is my hobby and a very large part of my life.  If I ever got to the stage where I was having difficulty getting homes for my puppies or they were being returned then I would rethink.  I dont know why you all have this obsession with dogs being returned if you are extra careful then it doesnt usually happen.  I have never yet had a puppy in my hands past 10 weeks.

At this present time I have over 25 people waiting for my next litter.  And in answer to how difficult it is bear in mind that not only have you got to have good conformation but you also have to have acceptable spotting.  This might mean that although a puppy would look promising at 6 weeks the spots can then get a crop of secondarys.  I never move a puppy on once I make the decision for it to stay then thats what happens which is why i am extra fussy. 

Just out of curiousity if it was someone like the Spavins or Ken Sinclair or Mike Gadsby for example saying they had bred this amount of litters in a year which they must plus some would you be quite so critical.  I suspect not.  Just for the record though last year was the only year I bred more than one litter and if I choose to breed 3 this year that is my decision.
Karen

Just to add as well I have never yet owned a puppy or dog that has not qualified for crufts at its first show and my idea of a good bitch or dog is one I think will make the grade and be a champion.  In my experience in a litter I would expect only one at a stretch two to be champion I would expect a few more to be Crufts qualifiers although the vast majority are bred for the pet market. 

Karen

>in that time I have only had two puppies go wrong and been returned and that was last year

Let's hope that the other 50 so far with another 10 years or so ahead of them don't find there way back to you -  what would you do if you had multiple requests in a short time frame to take several back?  How would you cope?  How can you sleep at night at the thought ?   I know I couldn't

>I dont want or need to buy a bitch in why should I when I have got perfectly good breeding stock who are capable of producing good quality puppies

Then why do you need to breed three litters this year in the hope of getting one "special" bitch

>I dont know why you all have this obsession with dogs being returned if you are extra careful then it doesnt usually happen.  I have never yet had a puppy in my hands past 10 weeks

Because the pups' welfare should always be paramount and as that responsibility should be a life long commitment by the breeder it bodes well to ensure that said breeder is in a position to take back the dogs that s/he is responsible for having brought into the world in the first place - be they 6 months, 5 years, 10 years old at the time :)   

>if it was someone like the Spavins or Ken Sinclair or Mike Gadsby for example saying they had bred this amount of litters in a year which they must plus some would you be quite so critical.  I suspect not

Are they enthusiastic breeders too

If I ever did have any more puppies returned I would cope the way I did this time go and collect the puppy and if I needed to find it a good home! Simple.  If I bred one litter I would still run that risk.You dont seem to grasp this point my puppies dont come back to me because I find them good homes in the first place!   Fortunately people who know me know what type of breeder I am so you are talking out of your backside. I would suspect that there are many breeders on here who have bred this amount plus some.

Just out of curiousity just how many champions do you own or have bred?   

Assuming you can read you would see that I have not said I WILL but MIGHT breed 3 litters.  If I chose to have 3 I will and quite frankly your opinion will not deter me.  I have never read such ridiculous views in my life.  So I am a puppy farmer because I have bred one litter per year and last year bred two - god how shocking! 

As for the top breeders being enthusiastic no they are not they are top breeders which means they do not want to show a inferior dog like me.

Karen

Oh - touched a nerve somehow :rolleyes:

>Fortunately people who know me know what type of breeder I am so you are talking out of your backside

Why's that then Karen?

>Just out of curiousity just how many champions do you own or have bred?

Only one litter in 16 years, still youngsters and just out of junior although one got her title at 17 months :)

>Assuming you can read

tetchy 

>I have never read such ridiculous views in my life

would that be the ones about being responsible for the lifetime of every dog we breed

>As for the top breeders being enthusiastic no they are not they are top breeders which means they do not want to show a inferior dog like me

The humour in this one was lost on me ..... I feel a little purple face coming on .....

yep, there it is!

Are you always this agressive or is just me?  I have answered all your questions quite clearly and quite honestly.  I am not repeating myself perhaps you have a disorder which means you cant actually read what people are saying.  If you think I am a puppy farmer so be it I dont think I am about to lose any sleep over your opinion somehow :)

Karen

Teri is not being aggressive - you, however, are being extremely personal - which is uncalled for.
If you express your views or advertise the fact that you breed a lot of pups on a public forum, you should be able to take, and respond to comments accordingly - without getting personal or making personal attacks.

So I am not allowed to have a opinion Chloe?  I have repeated my answers on several occassions if I am going to be slatted then yes I am going to retaliate. I suggest you lot actually look at my website and some other dalmatian breeders before you go around comdeming me.  Perhaps look at the breed record supplements for a year and then tell me I am large breeder.  It is not unusual to have 2 or more litters per year.

Karen

>So I am not allowed to have a opinion Chloe?

On orifaces .....   don't think so ;)

Of course, there is also the added issue of the tax man. I wonder how many of these "enthusiastic" breeders actually declare their considerable earnings to the IR? Not many, I bet.

I'm not the one using aggressive terminology Karen  :) as clearly highlighted already

As this is a thread which you have chosen to participate in and a subject dear to the heart of any responsible breeder, I merely queried :-

(a) how you would cope should several of the significant number of pups you've produced (in a breed in which your involvement spans all of 6 years) be returned to you simultaneously and

(b) why it's so difficult (from your description) to produce a quality puppy

Where have I called you a puppy farmer?

Come to think of it, where have you answered my queries ......

regards, Teri :)

:rolleyes:Read through my replies and you will see the answers to this already.:rolleyes:  Quite honestly Teri you are not interested in my replies you have tunnel vision and have decided I am the equivilent of a puppy farm.  If that is your opinion as I have said I am not going to lose any sleep over it. 

Karen

Well all I can gather from your replies is that if one comes back on it's own you'll find it a home and if you breed enough of them you may just get lucky :rolleyes:

beyond that ......

As my teenage daughter would say Whatever. :)

Karen

She doesn't answer questions either then - who'd have thought ;)

>I am not repeating myself perhaps you have a disorder which means you cant actually read what people are saying

Karen...remarks like that are NOT voicing an opinion, they are a personal attack on someone who was voicing an opinion in which they disagreed with you

I know all about puppy farms in Wales as thats where Polly came from.At the time i was very nieve and didnt realise what was going on but now i know her game.People like that should be shot.Worse part was that i found our much later her breeding bitches were rescue dogs and the KC papers that were suppose to be sent in the post were never to arive.Also the pure pedigree GSD turned out to be a GSD cross BC.Looking back now it seems a bit stupid but i really didnt believ people could be so cruel and disshonest.

IMO - a puppy farmer/commercial breeder is a breeder who has more than 2 litters a year - I think 2 litters is a reasonable amount of puppies to look for GOOD prospective homes for.

Now, I realise this may not be a popular viewpoint, and there are exceptions - in low numbered breeds for example. But anyone who breeds more than 2 litters a year in high producing breeds: labs, dallys, staffies for example - is simply adding to the problem of overcrowding in the breed and does not have the breeds best interests at heart. Better too few puppies for good homes IMO.

i don't think it is relevant if the breed of dog is popular or not, breeding back to back is in my opinion slightly irresponsible, the after care you can provide should god forbid more than one come back is limited, for what ever reason the dog is going to need some one to one time, to assess it, and hopefully rehome it into a  forever home.  I agree with Liisa, if you are struggling breeding a puppy you think worthy of keeping for show then why not look outside of your own kennel? maybe to improve on what you have so that in future you can breed something you feel is worthy of showing. But for someone to breed 2 or 3 litters a year and not find one puppy that they feel they can keep for showing is i think irresponsible.  This is purely my opinion.

Breeding back to back can be accepted under certain circumstances - for example, if the first litter was very small (one or maximum two puppies) and if the bitch would be over 8 if a season was missed before the next mating. But those would be exceptional circumstances.

I would add to that bitches that have long inter season intervals, a litter 9 to 11 months after thae last maybe perfectly appropriate depending on the bitches condition, n7umber of whelps, previous litters etc, but should not be the norm.

I didn't mean 2 litters from one bitch - I didn't make it clear. One litter per year - maximum of 2 litters per breeder.

Back to back breeding is even worse!

That's an interesting answer from you, Carla - not in an antagonistic way, but in an interesting way! - as you are likely to buy a second puppy from someone who breeds in greater numbers than that. What makes the difference between good and bad for you in those circumstances?

M.

Edited for clarity to add that I am in no way casting nasturtiums (ok, aspersions :D ) on the breeder in question!

:D

Better the devil you know on this occasion - I have had no complaints about my previous purchase and I would, and have, recommended her in the past.

I am always amazed at the number of pups in my breed that are advertized at any one time. Dobes are not an easy breed to rear to adulthood. They need sooooo much attention, socialisation, good training and the company of their human family almost costantly, to allow them to succeed and to become well balanced and happy adults. Rowan takes all my time. I work very PT, morning only, because of her and our lives at the moment seem to revolve around her needs. We take her out with us all weekend and if OH and myself are not around, then our 21 yr old daughter takes over the reins and still between us we struggle to get it right all the time, so I'm sure that we don't. I do look at these pups on the web and in mags etc and I wonder??? We are told by experts that they are a specialist breed, that they need this and that, which we have tried to provide for Rowan. But where do all these other pups go? I'm sure there are great owners out there, but a Dobe can live 10 to 15 years if all goes well. Who will own them in this time of work, work, work and constant changes? Are all their potential owners PT working, healthy dog walking, sensitive training, responsible and finantially stable people? More importantly I ask myself when we are out and about.....Where are they all?

You dont seem to grasp this point my puppies dont come back to me because I find them good homes in the first place!

So you can guarantee that your owners won't die within the next 12 yrs? won't get divorced or lose their homes?

Wish I could be that confident that things won't change - unfortunately experience has taught me otherwise.

I have been breeding for the past 20 years and in that time had two dogs with problems.  No you cant guarantee anything but I think its safe to say 45 people are not all going to split up and the dogs returned to me all at once? 

Karen

Five years ago my marriage broke up and I was forced to rehome my younger dogs (I kept my oldies).  Before this happened I would have said that I was a lifetime home - never would I have given up my dogs.  But circumstances do change and unfortunately not always for the good.  It was the hardest thing I've ever had to do - much harder than leaving my (ex) husband!!  I was lucky in that they all went to people I knew and trusted (be it breeder or friend).  These things DO happen.  I've never had to take back any of my breeding either - but you never know what life will throw at you. 

Debs

Precisely Debs - we can't  ever cover all eventualities.  I can't envisage a day when I would have given up my dogs (past or future) but we just don't know how things will pan out.

regards, Teri :) 

I think I have stated this about 10 times now I would take the puppies back and rehome them.  I have a contact with my buyers which says this I even have a arrangement with welfare should my puppies end up with them they will contact me.  If you like you can ring British dalmatian club welfare and they will confirm this. 

Anyway as sintilating as the conversation is I am going to have my tea.

KAren

i wouldnt if i was in this situation have 3 litters at once- because i would think as you keep them as pets in the home- i'd think this would bestressful for the whelping bitches. once all pups are born- the bitches wont be too comfy sharing the house with other litters?
it would be better if you had separate pens- do you? but then onc ethe pups get active they will want to start exploring! :)