Hello,

Was wondering if anyone could help with an unfortunate experience last week.

We have a 2 yr old male castrated weimaraner, a 12 yr old GSD bitch, and my son is 12 months old. Last week, Bailey (the weimy) went for my son who was crawling on the floor. Ellis (my son) was headed in the direction of Bailey in his bed, but he barked and was very aggressive , causing a red mark above his temple. He didn't break the skin, but we were all very shaken up.

My husbands 1st reaction was to get rid of him, but we didn't want him fretting in kennels, so kept him on while contacting a weimy rescue. I've started to read Jan Fennells "the dog listener", and have started to put into place her principles. How long do you think it will take to see an improvement in Baileys behaviour? He is a very typical weimy, stubborn and energetic. Ellis and Bailey don't normally come into close contact, and Bailey normally gets his bed to himself, just this one time i wasn't quick enough.

Our friends and family are concerned that we maybe putting Ellis in unneccassary danger, so would really appreciate your thoughts and suggestions. Don't want to get rid of him, but don't want Ellis to be put at risk either.

Thanks in anticipation,
Jules

Hiya,

Coudn't you just move the dogs bed to another part of the house?

Hi,
Wow, that was quick!

The dog's bed was on the landing, and Ellis was crawling in my bedroom. We do move his bed downstairs in the day, when Ellis is behind the gate upstairs, and only allow him to crawl where Bailey isn't allowed, usually. It's just I'm a bit worried now, as the baby gets faster and I need two more pairs of eyes. I should also mention that Bailey is jealous of Ellis i think, as he's showed his teeth at him through the baby gate when Ellis pulled himself up to a standing position on it.

Thanks
Jules

How long has your son been crawling? To a dog, a crawling child is a completely different species to an immobile baby, and the change can be very disturbing to them - especially to male dogs who are often unhappy with the young of their own species, let alone another!

It sounds as though Bailey has good bite inhibition because he didn't break the skin, so that's a good sign of his basic good temperament. You also say he barked - so, he gave a verbal warning which your son is too young to understand. This was ignored, so he used the next line of defence - a token, and well-controlled, nip.

What you need to do is make sure that Ellis is never with either of your dogs unattended. It's also imprtant that the dogs have an area (usually their beds) which are totally off-limits for children - all dogs need a get-away place where they feel secure. That may mean moving their beds to an area where Eliis doesn't have access.

Hi Jules

Firstly I would say I'm really sorry to hear about what happened between Bailey and your son, and that if you decide that rehoming is the way to go, that contacting Weim Rescue is definitely the best way forward.

Second, I'd say - please don't over-react.  Dogs are often afraid and threatened of anything they were not exposed to during the first 18 wks of their life.  A small child crawling on the floor towards them is a very strange-looking thing which won't even look "human" to a dog and which most dogs are not used to and it is understandable that a dog would be threatened by that.  And a major cause of aggression is fear.  Despite this, and despite the fact that babies have very soft and easily breakable skin, you say that Bailey did not even break his skin.  I would therefore cautiously say that you are possibly over-reacting.  As your son grows up, starts walking and begins to look more like a "person" to the dog, and less like a weird creature moving about on all fours, the dog should stop being afraid or threatened by this.  There are also other factors to consider - such as that often a small child can hurt a dog by pulling ears or skin, and this can occur out of sight from adults.  Then, when the dog next sees the child, he growls at it and tries to "defend" himself from it.

Lastly, please throw out any books you have by Jan Fennell.  Her methods are out-dated and now generally considered to be "rubbished" by the UK's top behaviourists.  Her methods are based on dominance and seem to imply that a dog is trying to dominate other members of the "pack", and she considers this "pack" to extend to humans.  It is now largely believed that humans cannot be part of a dog pack - we are a different species and the dog knows this.  A dog does not relate to us like another dog, and knows we are "separate", species-wise.  Yes, there will be a pack hierarchy between dogs in the same family.  But no, the humans in the family will not be part of this hierarchy. 

I would suggest instead, if you want to try to keep Bailey, that you go to your vet, get him a physical check-up, and then ask for a referral to a behaviourist who is accredited with the APBC:  www.apbc.org.uk

Thanks for the advice, which does make a lot of sense.

He's only been crawling for a few weeks, and yes, i understand he looks a bit funny. (Gets that from his dad!) I DID feel that i made a knee-jerk decision, probably emotional, but am determined that I want to do whats right for both Ellis AND Bailey. I'll do as you say, and contact the vet, and a local behaviourist. What exactly will the behaviourist do? I have no experience of these at all.

Thanks again,

Jules

A rreputable behaviourist will come and visit you to watch the dynamics in the family and how everyone including the dogs interact  in order to correctly identify what is ACTUALLY going on and what precisely triggers your Weim's behaviour.

Oh Right. Sounds just like what we need to prevent any more incidents. How much does this service usually cost, what should I expect to pay? Thanks again.

If you have insurance for your Weim, this is often covered in many policies.

If not, the behaviourist should be able to give you some idea before you agree to go ahead with it.  It might depend on how many visits are needed to sort out the problem.  Or it might just be a flat fee - ask in advance.

Just make sure the behaviourist is a member of the APBC, because there are lots of cowboys out there.  To see an APBC behaviourist, you need to get referred by your vet - they won't see you unless you have a vet referral - this is because many behavioural problems can be caused by physical problems (ie a dog is in pain and so is aggressive because of the pain), so you need to rule that out first.

You might want to look at the web link for the APBC I posted, find a behaviourist near you which is listed on there, then tell your vet you want to be referred to that specific behaviourist.  Otherwise you are at the mercy of your vet referring you to a good one.  And not all vets do!

PS - About Jan Fennell and the dominance myth, here is a good link: http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2004/Debunking.pdf

I had a behaviourist round when my danes could not get used to my new baby - I thought they wanted to kill the baby but actually they were just extremely anxious and worried. His advice was very good and his methods worked well. We now have a happy house. That said - the dogs are simply not allowed out of the kitchen when baby is downstairs, although they are allowed to say hello over the gate nice and gently and will lick Archie's hand. There is absolutely no possible way I would allow a crawling baby direct access to a dog, or a dog direct access to a baby. You simply cannot be too careful.

One of the things the behaviourist commented on was the dog proofing of the house - we have gates everywhere and they are so useful. I get a lot of peace of mind from the fact that my house is like a prison block :D

I would contact a behaviourist and put the dog where he has his own space from the baby.

Good luck :)

Thanks Chloe,

We also have 2 gates at the moment, one at the door of Ellis's toy room, and 1 at the top of the stairs. Its certainly reasurring to hear all your experiences. I did think Bailey was very jealous, but now sounds as though with a bit of work, there maybe a happy household not too far away.

Onetwothree, have just read that link you provided, and its certainly thought provoking. I think the problem I had, is its difficult to know where to get the right advice, but you all have helped a great deal, so thanks again,

As for a visit to the vet, I've just been thinking that maybe he HAS been irritated too, because he was under the vet for a skin complaint in sept/oct on his feet. He went in for "skin scrapes" but nothing was conclusive. He was on long term antibiotics (12 weeks) for this, and his paws are completely better, but his coat on his back is discoloured, and he's been rolling around a lot as if to be scratching. Does anyone know what this may be??

Willis was displaying lots of signs of being jealous - but actually he was genuinely worried and didn't have a clue that Archie was a small human :D

We had to leave lots of baby things around for him to get used to the smells. We also had to have lots of time introducing Willis to Archie gently and with no pressure or responsibiliity on him - ie using a house line and having him nice and settled before bring baby in the same room. I am not suggesting you try these, but you can see where the behaviourist was useful in assessing my dogs and advising accordingly. I have to be honest, I was wary on what he would say - but he was brilliant and came and saw us in our own home. He gave me a lot of peace of mind, which, in return made the whole house relax a bit :)

Can't help with the cause of the itching, but I wouldn't think him being uncomfy and itchy would mean he is 100% happy :)

I know just how you are feeling, as this happened to me with the last dog I had.  As has been suggested, crawling babies are very different creatures to a dog whose become used to the funny smelling bundle that just sort of lies there.

I'm not sure though just how 'Amichien bonding' is going to help, and I would be more inclined to teach the dog to associate this new set of circumstances (crawling baby) with pleasant things, rather than a disruption in the status quo.  Praise and reward for the dog when they tolerate the baby at a distance to start with, slowly decreasing the distance at which the dog is earning the reward.

This is a very simplistic way of putting it, so if in doubt, a referral to a behaviourist would probably help.