Hi,
I'm after some advice re whether you should tell the stud dog owner if you are not intending to dock any resulting puppies. It didn't occur to me that it might be a problem as the fee was paid and no agreements made re pick of litter etc. I did dock a previous (first) litter as I had my female on breeding terms and this was the agreement but I did say that I would not do this by preference. I did not discuss with stud dog owners and they are very reasonable people but when I mentioned to another member of the breed club she said it should have been in the stud dog contract that I would dock any puppies. We only had a verbal agreement about a repeat mating if necessary so not sure if I should contact and explain. I was due to ring this week anyway and give an update. I was interested to know if anyone had experienced a similar situation, I knew there would be a problem with some club members/breeders but was surprised by how angry this person became.
Many thanks

If theres no contract and no verbal agreement, I dont see what the problem is. I have a litter (docked) the owner of the stud doesnt dock, and I have to admit, nothing was discussed about docking. You paid for the stud service and the resulting puppies are strictly yours as their breeder, so the stud owner does not really have any say in what you do. To keep on good terms, it may be prudent to tell him/her, but other than that, I dont see it can cause any trouble.

I don't dock, we have used a few different stud dogs over the years, but none of them stated I must of must not dock.  I would have thought as the bitch is yours and you've paid the stud fee, then it's your choice.

I cant see why it matters if the litter is docked or undocked as long as you have home for the puppies it shouldnt matter.   

Undocked dogs in  general dont do as well in the ring, most prefer  the breed as its been for years , if  docking is normal for  the breed then id be upset too if i was expecting a pick puppy back by one of my males and the breeder didnt have them docked, while i agree its your choice as the breeder i do feel it should of been made clear as the stud dog owner probably wouldnt of been sat all this while waiting for a puppy thats beaten before it starts.

But the stud owner isnt having a puppy...or thats the way I read it?

If i had plans of that i would inform the  stud owner before mating because some people have very strong beliefs on that and if they were very uncomfortable and didnt want that associated with their male (which it would be because he would be the father) than i would choose another stud

I don't have a docked breed, but if the owners of the stud dog were really concerned about whether you docked the pups or not, perhaps they would have made docking part of the agreement when you made the arrangements to mate your bitch?

Thats what I think - if they have strong feelings, they should make them clear - or how is the owner of the bitch to know?

When we take our girls to a stud do we not expect complete honesty from the stud owner so why shouldnt we be honest with the stud owners and let them know of our intentions i know i am. After i have bred my girl the stud owners involvement is very little i still feel they should know what my intentions are before breeding incase they do disagree because those puppies are a reflection to the stud and his owner.

Hi,

I can see your point but the stud dog owner isn't having a puppy. I am not very keen on the idea of picks of the litter as friends have been left holding dogs for a long time waiting for the other person to make a decision. The stud dog owner's not waiting or expecting a puppy. I would have clarified the docking at the time otherwise because of the problem over showing.

Hi Crosby

Personally I think it would have been more appropriate to advise the stud dog owner at the time of booking the dog's services.  As you had already bred and docked a litter the stud dog owner may have presumed that you were pro-docking so it wasn't an issue.  As there is no written contract there is little the stud dog owner can do but, TBH, had someone failed to inform me (hypothetical situation only as I don't have a customarily docked breed) of their intention to leave the pups undocked, I would be most annoyed and can fully understand why some pro-docking breeders would feel similarly.

I firmly believe complete honesty and trust in any breeding arrangement are of paramount importance and while you may well (and hopefully will) find that the stud's owner has no problems with your plans equally I can see how your earlier litter being docked may well have mislead them to believe this litter would be done also as a matter of course.

Good luck anyway!  I genuinely hope it works out amicably for you.

Regards, Teri :)  

Hi,

I should have discussed it when we talked about all the other terms I can see that now. It's stupid on my part as I know how strongly I feel on the subject which is why I tend to avoid it and have considered changing breeds before. The stud dog owner does know about this though and that I docked the last litter, not under protest but to honour my agreement with my girl's breeder so I don't think it will come as a complete surprise. Knowing my views I can only think they would have asked had it been a real problem for them. However I'm into assumptions now and the best thing I can do is pick up the phone and talk it through with them.

Good luck - hope it goes well  :)

Regards, Teri

Whos affix will the pups carry as if its his then id not blame him for feeling upset.

The breeders, ie the owner of the bitch.

The  poster said the dam was on breeding terms,  so depending on the terms the litter could be in eithers affix.  :)

Hi,

To clarify I had the bitch on breeding terms which meant that for her first litter the breeder 'owned' the puppies. After this the KC registration and ownership transfered so she is now my dog and her puppies will be registered in my name/affix not the original breeder or the stud dog owner.

If this had not been the case I would have been obliged to follow the breeders wishes. The breeder knows about this litter and I consulted them on the choice of stud dog and after comparing pedigrees etc we selected this particular dog as a good match, but I made all the arrangements myself. The breeder was aware I was not intending to dock and although this would be their preference for their own puppies we have agreed to disagree (I think!). 

Anyway I hope this discussion has raised awareness of the issue and I have also had some useful advice both on forum and off for which I am grateful.

Only the breeder's affix will be on the initial registration & the breeder is of course the owner of the bitch

I think it's up to the stud dog owner to ask if the puppies will be dovked & if the answer is no & they don't approve then they can refuse the stud

I know a top breeder/stud dog owner who has a no scan clause in the stud agreement-ie if you wnat to use their dogs you have to agree not to have the bitch sanned I believe they think scanning affects the puppies :rolleyes:

Editd to add I did dock a previous (first) litter as I had my female on breeding terms and this was the agreement but I did say that I would not do this by preference
The breeding terms is between the breeder of the bitch & the owner not the stud dog owner unless the stud dog owner bred the bitch

I really dont think this is a matter of honesty or trust - neither party mentioned it, so perhaps it was no big deal to the stud dog owner? In my breed, as far as I am aware, most breeders are happy with the fact that it is personal choice, and some breeders dock, some do not. Certainly I would have no problem allowing my boy to be used by a breeder who doesnt dock, as there are far more important criteria to be considered. Some breeders have dew claws removed, some do not - has anyone discussed that when looking for a stud dog?

You paid the stud dog owner for a mating and thats that. Its up to the stud dog owner to ask questions ifhe/she has any strong feelings on things like this, and your right to do as you wish with your puppies - and I owm a docked stud dog.
Sadly it looks like all this will be irrelevant shortly as the Gvt seem to have changed their mind on docking.

Just an update. I have now discussed with stud dog owner and although their personal choice is to dock they felt that this was my choice as the breeder whether to or not. They would still have allowed me to use their stud dog if we had discussed beforehand and as mentioned by Fillis felt there were more important criteria such as the required breed health checks, my experience and competence to produce healthy and well socialised puppies etc.

I am pleased we have discussed as have found the stud dog owner to be very helpful and supportive so far and would have reconsidered decision and indeed offered to do so if my not docking would have caused them a problem. This was something that I would have been very upset about but through not clarifying at the start left myself in this situation. The morale of the story being as pointed out by slee that complete honesty is very important on both parts and as stud dog owner said if it was a criteria for using their stud they should have clarified too. A satisfactory ending and lesson learnt! 

Phew, there's a relief then. I'm pleased for you that the stud dog owners feels the way they do. Now all the agonising is over you can relax and look forward to your pups. :)

Hi Crosby - I'm really pleased for you and I'm sure that you're relieved to have discussed it fully :)   There's enough to worry about with a litter on the way!

In many ways though I think this will be a useful thread to any breeders / stud dog owners who have never thought to make certain issues abundantly clear at the beginning (not just docking, I'm sure there are some other things that could crop up :) ).

All the best for when the pups arrive, regards Teri

>not just docking, I'm sure there are some other things that could crop up

A very good point, Teri! My stud contract stipulates that any puppies born with a condition that would adversely affect their quality of life, such as cleft palate or bilateral deafness, will be humanely put to sleep by a veterinary surgeon as soon as practicable after diagnosis.