I have 2 entire male Shar Pei.  We had success with one of our boys until he got his male hormones kicking in and became a monster so he went back on the lead at around 7 months.

I just wondered if anyone had been able to train any of the independant breeds successfully off the lead??? 

My eldest is now 3.5 years and pretty obediant on the lead and has done very well at obediance classes.

Any suggestions?

Thanks lots

Nicky

You could try a lunge line which will let them go a fair distance away from you, these are best used
with harnesses.

I've had many borzoi over the years, not the same I know as they are more prey driven than independant but I find they're all good off lead until around 10 months to a year. After this time they can really only be off lead in fully fenced areas such as empty farmers fields. Not any help to you I know but at least you're not alone :D

My 6 yr old border terrier is never let off the lead as despite intensive training by me and trainers it seems he cannot understand the concept of recall.  I have him on an extending lead when we go out and he's fine.  I don't think there's a problem with having a dog on the lead all the time.  Mine would rather run free of course but he always seems to enjoy his walks anyway.  I don't think its an obedience thing as mine was perfect at the classes but when he's off lead and sees another animal he just has to run and run to get at it which is no good for anyone.  Better to be on the lead and under control :)

CG

Nicky

In a word, no. 99% of shar-pei just can't be trusted off the lead, even if they've done obedience and are great in class. Been there, done that! They are intelligent enough to realize that if they are off the lead, you have no physical control over them and they can do what they please. Even the really good ones will forget themselves when faced with a cat/bird/dog to chase after and go selectively deaf (many have a high prey drive). It's just not worth potentially risking your dog's life, letting them run free. I found that the 8 metre flexileads are great and even the energetic puppies would enjoy going to the park and running round and round in circles on a flexi (they're also intelligent enough to know how far the lead extends).

You must have been going to poor training please try a proffesional just go to the APDT site and find a trainer neasrest to you, you cannot contemplate keeping a dog on the lead for its entire life they must run around that is what being a dog is they must have that freedom.

^ Paul, I think you're being naive and/or haven't had much experience with different dogs yourself. Most people that subscribe to the philosophy of 'dogs must have freedom' are the ones that are the bain of my life. Invariably, I have their dog in my dog's face after aggressively charging up to us and the owner is a good half mile behind shouting "it's okay, he's not vicious".

Do you honestly think that the hundreds of breeds of dog, bred for hundreds of years for different jobs, are all going to react in a cookie cutter manner to training? Many breeds have personality traits like high prey drive or being bred to work independently of people on their own initiative that makes the likelihood of them being reliable off the lead far less likely, even with the best 'professional' dog trainer on the job.

You carry on being touchy feely and I'll carry on keeping my dogs on a 30 foot flexilead. I've had one too many near coronaries due to letting chows or shar-pei free run off lead. As for my current dog, he'd be halfway back home to Tibet and you can ask anybody in the breed can they let their dogs loose if you want corroboration. I suppose I could go back to having a nice crossbreed collie/retriever or similar and have an easy life with a super little well trained dog, but hey, where's the fun in that? :D

Sad to say there are some breeds that are just to independent to be allowed off lead excersise in any but the most securely fenced area.  Others like my own can be reasonabley reliable, but care needs to be taken as to where so that their natural tendency to range ahead and occasionally turn a deaf ear will still keep them safe.

No amount of training will negate some of these tendencies, though will lessen them and make the dog reasonably reliable but never quite enough to be complacent.

I too could not imagine never letting them off lead, but it just isn't safe with some breeds or where the area available is not secure enough.

It is probably possible to find somewhere to let your dog off lead no matter how unreliable they are. With mine fenced empty livestock fields are fine. I have a friend with a husky that could escape these fields so she lets him run in the fenced five aside football ground at night when the local sports centre is closed. I also know someone who exercises their dogs in tennis courts for the same reason, someone else uses a riding schools indoor school, another uses a multistorey car park! As long as you clean up after your dog these are all possible 'fun' places :)

How do you gain access to all these places when they are closed

No I am not naive enough to think if you hold a treat out a couple of times it will get every dog to recall, you have to spend time training with dogs like that and many repetitions. Going to classes for 18 months will get that. What I am worried about is the punishments you give out to the dogs by keeping them on a lead like that, a 30ft lead is not how you excercise a dog, every time it goes to the end of the lead and you stop it that is punishing your dog, hundreds of times per excercise. Whats so painstaking that you feel you cannot go to classes.
It is a welfare problem,the dogs cannot experience themselves or their walks properly. I cannot imagine anyone resigning themselves to keeping a dog on the lead for its entire life when few months more training, than say with another quieter breed, with an accredited APDT trainer is all that is needed, is that couple of extra months simply not worth it for the dogs sake huh.

I forgot I dont know whats meant by enclosed places the only place to excersises dogs is parks or country parks i have never seen one without gates somewhere what enclosed places do you mean that anyone can just wander into and lock the gates?

>dont know whats meant by enclosed places

an area totally enclosed by 6 foot high fencing and lockable gate, so even the most determined of escapees cannot get out of. Like a previous poster stated, a tennis court or football pitch totally surrounded by fencing :)

>No I am not naive enough to think if you hold a treat out a couple of times it will get every dog to recall, you have to spend time training with dogs like that and many repetitions. Going to classes for 18 months will get that.
>I cannot imagine anyone resigning themselves to keeping a dog on the lead for its entire life when few months more training, than say with another quieter breed, with an accredited APDT trainer is all that is needed

Well I certainly hope you dont go round giving advice like that to new husky/mal owners, it would be sure to end in heartache :rolleyes:

Thank you all for your advice.  My suspicions are of course confirmed!!! Yes we do use flexi leads which the eldest is fine on - young one hasn't worked out where the end of it is yet lol so I have one arm longer than the other.   In the summer I do use lunge lines but they get too muddy in the winter.  I have had no luck really finding somewhere secure for them to run freely.  We live near a lot of fields but no parks. 

I have to say my boys do actually enjoy their walks and get three walks a day, one on the flexi and two on normal leads, sometimes the other way round. 

Paul - I unfortunately having had 3 Shar Pei have resigned myself to the fact that Shar Pei cannot be let off the lead but I just wanted to ask everyones opinions really.  I have invested in training classes and my eldest in fact still goes - and is the best in his class - yes even off the lead!!!  But I do know that a training class off the lead is fine for him but not a walk in the fields off the lead. 

thank you for all your comments - will just have to keep building up my arm muscles!!

I really do not understand what kind of place you live in janeandkai but if dog owners in London, and that covers a huge amount of the nations dogs, went to tennis courts and asked them could they use their courts to excercise their dogs I think they would think the dog owner was nuts. As far as asking could they go into a five aside footbal pitch I just cannot understand where the person is coming from who thinks a dog owner can wander up to a fenced five aside football pitch and even think, let alone ask, can I use your pitch to excercise my dog, it is simply not true you would be given the go ahead, insurance alone would not cover it let alone groups of the non dog owning public give up one of their sparse city recreational grounds for groups of dog owwers to use for excercise and even if the did whats few square yards of football pitch for lifetime.
excercise to a dog which wants to run around free because it has a relaibale recal.

Why do you say this ......."Well I certainly hope you dont go round giving advice like that to new husky/mal owners, it would be sure to end in heartache " ......APDT are qualified proffesional trainers who can teach anyone with kind fair and effective methods, they also have a complaints proceedure for anyone who feels they are not giveing that service and YES I certainly would recomend them to a new Mal owner.
I really do not want or am trying to get personal butI think you have just done a few lessons and expected the earth instead of a longer term going to lessons every week for maybe 10 months or a year, whats if the dog is free for the rest of its life because it has a safe recall. I thought husky types were bred for  a massive amount of freedom keeping them on a lead for life is not an option IMHO. But your post seems to me to be an excuse for finding and APDT trainer and written to avoid finding one and take part in kind effective fair training, please note effective is also a part of the APDT commitment.

I have not just done 10 classes - Bailey is 3.5 years old and has been going to classes the majority of his life - week in week out.  Not becuase of getting him to be good off the lead but becuase he is good at it, needs the socialisation and he thoroughly enjoys it as do I. 

out of interest what breed do you have?

I have a rescue and what people people think is some kind of collie with some gsd in it, he is not difficult but there were dogs in our class who made him look like he was asleep and the onwers simply keep going to classes for obvious reasons namely thos need more classes than mine. Bailey has hit the nail on the head, you simply keep going to classes not just a couple and give up to say well its the breed, its not the breed its lack of owners effort and commitement. Its no use an APDT trainer being commited, thats only one half of it if the owner does not put in the other half of the commitment then the dogs suffer like these sharpis huskies collies and borzois here.

If only that were true.  Al mien get to go off lead in country Parks and fields as long as there is plenty mor4e space between there and danger (roads or livestock). 

they have all been trained to recall, but they will all occasionally decide that they would rather investigate something more interesting through that hedge, or scavenge those lovely take aways peole think is OK to litter the place with, or go into poorly fenced gardens where bread has been put out for the birds.

Now if I spot what they are about t do I can stop them, and they will recall if they are say up to 50 feet away, but they are smart, they want to do what they want to do, so they wait for a momenets inattention (say poo pick up) and head as fast as ther little legs will carry them to what they want to do, even hiding so that I don't know where they are, because once I know where they are and get to within their 'circle of influence' they will give up the game and come in, shame faced but not remorseful

One in particular is very independent, and will be very good for ages, and then will just head off no matter what you do, truning the other way, treats, dead stops, refusing to walk on until she returns etc.  With ther I have treid long lines (she knows when she is 30 feet away and I can't get to the end of the line).

Because of training I know they are reliable with other dogs and people, have been proofed to horses and sheep (still doesn't make it safe to have themn near livestock as farmers will often shoot first ask questions after).  I know everytime they go off lead I am taking a calcualted risk, and every time they choose to go out of sight and don't instantly recall I get a lump in the throat.  Thankfully as a hunting breed they do not have the urge to just run and run, and it is normal for them to keep track of you, but it tends to be their choice. 

With their training I encourage them to choose to keep closer tabs on me than they otherwise might, so they keep a reasonable mooching distance of about 50 to 100 feet, but they will range of further and return to that distance.  Trying to get them to stay much closer than that just doesn't work unless physical restraint is used, or they feel the need watch out for you (say after dark or a strange place). 

I do frequent recalls,a nd have been told off by more than one of them for caling them without good reason, so the odd treat saves them resenting this too much.

Your cross has the genes of two breeds that look to their human partner for instruction and direction, and their natural tendencies go well with training recal and keeping close, as we are dealing with herding and protective instincts.

With my breed a dog that kept wanting to return to it's owner every five mnutes would be useless as a hunter,a s it would be exhausted long before it found it's moose.  Dealing with a large prey the dog has to be capable of thinking on it's fet and making it's own decisons and judgement.  I beleive this is what keeps my dogs from doing soemthing really stupid like running for the roads (they do a lot of road work on lead) once adult, but of course in a strange area they could end up in danger unexpectedly.

My naughtiest one just isn't worth taking the chance with as it is amazing how far and quickly they can go, if in a mind to.

You have misunderstood everything written here Paul. My borzois certainly don't suffer - they have 2 off lead walks a day where they play chases with each other or play with toys or just run flat out for the fun of it. Being borzois though these walks are always in fully fenced fields. When I got my first borzoi 20 years ago I was competing in obedience at the time with my collies and rather arrogantly thought like you that it was simply a matter of training. My borzoi would be off lead down the country park etc - all these other owners just didn't train theirs enough - how wrong could I be! My boy went to training 3 times a week and competed in Novice obedience but still one day dissapeared for three hours after a deer. Another time he lunged after a motorbike and snapped his lead and was run over. He recovered fully and went on to be a group winning Champion but after that was never allowed off lead in open spaces. Judges often commented on how well muscled he was, a comment that has been made about all my dogs so they're not missing out. On the subject of tennis courts/ 5 a side pitches they never lock the ones around here :D

We were discussing exercise for those breeds of dogs who are not reccomended to be let off lead unless in a secure area, NOT all dogs.

>can I use your pitch to excercise my dog, it is simply not true you would be given the go ahead

For you to know this you must have asked every owner of a tennis/football court/pitch in the country then, i think not. I DO have access to an all weather tennis court for some off lead romps with my mal. I am also not the only owner either with this option

> I thought husky types were bred for  a massive amount of freedom keeping them on a lead for life is not an option

husky types are Sled dogs, bred for pulling in 'harnesses'  not for running round off leads.

>butI think you have just done a few lessons and expected the earth
> your post seems to me to be an excuse for finding and APDT trainer and written to avoid finding one and take part in kind effective fair training,

Your opinion, but you do not know what kind of training schedule me and my mal have, for your information he is being trained for what he was bred for ie sled pulling. and if you know anything about sled pulling you will know that these breeds have been trained for generations to 'run away' from their handlers voice and NOT to come to it.
Why do you think both the sibe club and the mal club stress to new owners that these breeds are too risky to let off lead in an unenclosed space??

Well thats one owner in the entire country who has permission to excercise in a tennis court, how many hundreds of thoushands of the other dogs can get that privaledge, not sure about privaledge, it might be enough for a human to run round a tennis court a few times but these are dogs and need miles of free running per day and that freedom can only come with training, maybe an hours training per week can do more good than an hour in something as small as a tennis court for that one UK dog.

:rolleyes:
You obviously did not read or understand anything i said.

Has it not occurred to you, Paul, that the people who own Sibes/Mals etc., made sure they had appropriate arrangements for them to run free in place from the outset? :rolleyes:

Paul - I don't think you get it.  Owners of independant breeds be they Shar Pei like my own, Mals, huskies, chows etc do not skimp on training - in fact mine probably have more than anyone else I know.  Training is not the answer here unfortunately as my dogs are wonderfully intelligent and trained but still cannot be let off the lead!

Make that two Paul..!

Just before Xmas I had to travel into London Daily to visit an old aunt of mine who was house bound due to an accident, she lives in SE London, I arranged at her local park (Croydon Council Park workers were great) to use the tennis courts, I went to the parker keepers little building and explained and they were extremely helpful, I offered to pay the court fee that tennis players have to pay as thought this only fair but they wavered it.
I never once got the impression from them I was 'nuts'!!?? merely responsible.
:o)
My Dog..a Siberian Husky.

I lived in London up to 1998 from Birth.  Now I had some nice parks near me.  Clapham Common, Tooting Bec common and Wandsworth common all favoured spots with dog walkers.  there is no way any of these would be large and contained enough for any of my dogs.

Her in Bristol I am very fortunate.  there are numberous countery Parks in the main qacessed by cul de sacs, and recreation grounds that tend to be enclosed by housing with lanes to access them, so as long as I keep the dogs away from the entry and exit points, and the area is large enough they are pretty safe.

I would not run a sled dog breed in any of these areas I use, but sight hounds yes, as there is no way they would see something from them to run after into a road.

Hi Paul, I live in north London and in our local park are several netball courts, and I often see owners in there with their dogs, securely shut in so that the dog can safely run around. :-)

Hi Paul,

I wonder perhaps if this anecdote might give you a more broader perspective,I can in part see where your coming from but I do think that if your going to formulate such an unwavering opinion it might be nice to have some fact rather than personal opinion,especially as your opinion seems formed with no experience of some of the Breeds you've mentioned(!?)
Apologies to regulars I have I think posted this before but find it such a good example of why I keep my Siberian who has regular training on a lead in unenclosed areas

Lois Leonard  (American)owner/handler and trainer of Lojan's very special Sula says:
"you will never be able to trust a Siberian, ANY Siberian, off lead in an unfenced area.NEVER. its as simple as that"

Now the gravity of her words only come into context when you consider that Lojan's very special Sula had:
In 9 years of competition....
earned 248 qualifying scores in AKC obedience.
won 18 area specialty high in trials.
2 National speciality high in trials.
3 All Breed High in trials.
And OTCH (obedience trials Champion) !!

And with all that in mind Lois tells the story of how one day Sula ran across a road after another dog narrowly missing and thankfully not hit by Cars!

that does kind of sum it up really.  Shar Pei are the same and Bailey is so amazing in his classes and does better than most but I also know he is effectively his own person and he does so well in obediance classes because he chooses to as he loves it.  If he didn't love it you could never make him. 

i must admit I do prefer them being indepedant and I love it that he has a mind of his own and you just have to accept that basically you can't have everything!

To be honest the way you describe your dogs I think my trainer or old trainer actualy referes them on fairly young, I have never really seen very obstroculus such as yours. She says the ones which stay have owner problems who come for the lesson and do nothing for the rest of the week, so maybe I really am not familiar with your types. But thats what I call good training, if it wont work refre them on and she has my great respect for that.

>No I am not naive enough to think if you hold a treat out a couple of times it will get every dog to recall, you have to spend time training with dogs like that and many repetitions. Going to classes for 18 months will get that.

Oh good. Will you tell the shar-pei that I did obedience and agility with for 2 years that? He was an absolute star pupil in class and as good as any dog there. He still can't be trusted off the lead in an open space as he's a born chaser. We only stopped going because sadly, the trainer died.

>What I am worried about is the punishments you give out to the dogs by keeping them on a lead like that, a 30ft lead is not how you excercise a dog, every time it goes to the end of the lead and you stop it that is punishing your dog, hundreds of times per excercise.

What book did you quote that verbatim from? Has it ever entered your head that a dog on a flexilead will not spend all it's time choking itself to death on the very end of it? 99% of the time, mine spend their walks quite happily mooching, sniffing and peeing in the grass about 6 to 12 feet away as we amble along - oh, what heartless cruely and punishment I inflict on a daily basis! When you can come up with a better argument for not using a flexilead than 'a dog cannot experience itself properly' and 'a few more months training will cure it' I may be interested.

>Whats so painstaking that you feel you cannot go to classes.

Classes - been there, done that, have the t-shirt, notepad and matching socks! One of my own shar-pei went to obedience classes a few times and performed from class one like she'd been doing it all her life. She was okay till a GSD tried to bite her and she was a coiled spring, waiting for a chance to get her own back. She never forgot. She was very well trained by me at home anyway, but had a penchant for picking fights with the biggest dogs she could find. Keeping her on a flexilead prevented her from hurting herself or other dogs. You could never predict which dogs she'd take a dislike to and she was sneaky about it.

>It is a welfare problem,the dogs cannot experience themselves or their walks properly.

You really are sounding like a patronising, politically correct twassock now. Are you spouting something you've read in a very dodgy, way too anthropomorphic canine psychology book or was it a PETA leaflet?

>I cannot imagine anyone resigning themselves to keeping a dog on the lead for its entire life when few months more training, than say with another quieter breed, with an accredited APDT trainer is all that is needed, is that couple of extra months simply not worth it for the dogs sake huh.

Are you advertising for the ADPT or something? How about you spend a couple of extra years getting some practical experience of dogs instead of making stupid and sweeping statements about things? I've helped to train several people's dogs for them who've had problems, with good results. My neighbour's GSD will do anything I ask him to, yet leads her a merry dance. I think in the 20 years I've owned dogs, I have a rough idea of my own dog's personalities and abilities. I tell you what, if you pay the fees, I'm perfectly willing to watch an accredited ADPT trainer not be able to train my Tibetan Mastiff to reliably recall when off the lead in a public place for as long as you want. It's not a case of resignation, it's a combination of being responsible and thoughtful towards other people, keeping my dog safe from other people's inconsiderate actions and part and parcel of the breed I chose to live with rather than a behavioural problem as you seem to see it.