To add one thing to this thread re. the question posed by some "what would it achieve to put the dog to sleep".
Would it not help the child? To get proper closure and to know she'd never have to worry about seeing this dog again when out and about.

Ian,
I have just been reading all these comments and I'm deeply saddened by what happened to you and Demi. As the owner of a large working breed myself (and the mother of an 11yr old child), I have to say that if my dog made an unprovoked attack on my child (or anyone elses) he would be PTS. Obviously this would break my heart as I adore him but I just could not live with a dog that I could never fully trust and who had shown such aggression. I dont know what else to say really except that you cannot go on blaming yourself Ian. Nothing can change the past now unfortunately and I know if it was me I doubt I could  be as strong as you have been and I too would be saying 'if only...'
By saying I would have my dog PTS (as others have also said) this does not mean that I love my dog any less. I just feel it would be the only option. Be strong, you sound like a great dad to me.
Hugs to your little girl Demi XXX

Ian your daughter is both beautiful and brave. That she could summon up that wonderful comment about her liquidised food being "minging" just adds to her exceptional qualities.

I'm also of the opinion that the dog should have been pts but would say that the situation should have been avoided in the first place and that, in the hands of an experienced breeder, I'm sure it would have been. I have to say that the practice of inviting numbers of children to come in and see cute little new puppies has always struck me as inherently risky, especially while the pups are very new indeed. Indeed, anyone on here who has given birth themselves will know that there are only so many visitors you feel up to entertaining before getting tired and potentially irritable!

However, for all the awfulness I think you must move on for the sake of demi as much as anything else. She needs to put this horrible ordeal in the past and whilst you could go for private prosecutions, appeals, etc., nothing will undo what has happened.

My best wishes to you, demi and the rest of the family.

Ian

I too am deeply saddened by the awful attack on your little girl. 

Just from my own experience I would never walk a nursing bitch back into the room where her pups have just been viewed by anyone, on lead or not.  The bitch was instantly put on guard having been separated from her pups and then finding strangers have been with them.  I would never, never do this with my bitch who is very mild mannered under normal circumstances but would, like most animals defend her young with her last breath.  The breeder should have been more aware of the implications of his actions.

On the other hand, that child could then feel responsible for the dogs death.

Works both ways. I was bitten as a child, i stuck myhand where it was not wanted. It scared me very badly, BUT had the dog been pts, i would have felt responsible (and would have been i my case, the dog didnt attack me, i shoved my hand at it).

Kids can often feel responsible for things that they had no control over.

My personal feeling is that Ian, you need to stop dragging it through the papers, i believe this happend last july, get your children to know how to behave around dogs and stay safe, preferably with PAT dogs or something, so that they hold no lasting fear of dogs (and being scared of dogs is a great way to get bitten if you dont know how to react.).

All dragging it through teh papers will acheive is giving bullmastiffs a bad name. Maybe this one was bad, more likely her owner was irresponsible. But giving ALL bullmastiffs a bad name by going to The Sun with it, not only does the breed a major disservice, but it ENCOURAGES scum to go out and get them and breed them. Totally the opposite of y our objective there i reckon.

Em

>but it ENCOURAGES scum to go out and get them and breed them.

A very good point. When a breed is singled out this way it becomes the latest 'must-have' for all the brain-dead idiots who like to think they look 'hard'; and irresponsible breeders are quick to supply them with ill-bred, badly raised dogs, making future attacks more likely. :(

>All dragging it through teh papers will acheive is giving bullmastiffs a bad name. Maybe this one was bad, more likely her owner was irresponsible.

I agree it is a good point.  All the more reason this should have been dealt with quickly and put to rest.  As it is you still have an unpredictable dangerous dog and a father who is hell bent on finding some sort of justice for his daughter before this episode comes to any sort of conclusion.

What a terrible thing to have happened.

I believe that each case should be judged on its own merit and a dog not necessarily put to sleep for biting, HOWEVER, for any dog to need to be 'prised' off a person would (IMO) indicate very dangerous temperament problems - puppies or no puppies.  Surely no pet dog should feel under such a threat at ANY time that it needs to be so vicious and I can't believe that having puppies seems, in some peoples eyes, to give a dog an excuse to do anything.

http://www.thisishull.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=197370&command=displayContent&sourceNode=197368&home=yes&contentPK=13845082

This happened near me in the last couple of days :( Again in the owners home so the DDA does not apply

thank you very much for informing me of this case,it is identical injury-wise to my daughter.
i will try to get the two girls to help each other through this.

I'm late on this thread so all I can say is sorry about your daughter and I hope she will recover well with the support from you and your family.

I just read the courier news and what a brave little girl with an amazing strong character, you must be very proud of her.

In this second story, that dog had already bitten somebody before it attacked that child.  Yet the owners were prepared to let the dog loose around their own and other people's children without any supervision? I despair at the stupidity of some people!

What if the bullmastiff's owner is similarly negligent and she bites again? Nothing against bullmastiffs, but because of the foolishness of the person responsible for her, this dog is now potentially a time bomb. The attack on Iain's daughter was 100% the owner's fault - what if they have a similar 'error of judgement' again? It's not the dog's fault in any way, but it would come into sharp perspective if it was one of us, our own dogs or children that was her second attack.

Iain, I hope you and your family get some resolution in this matter. I personally think it's disgusting that not you, but the dog's owner is dragging this out in such a manner.  Hard as it is, try not to blame the dog and please make sure that neither of your daughters do not end up with a phobia of dogs as it will make their lives a misery.

hi,
This is my first post on here.
Iain, sorry to hear about your daughter, she is very pretty & there is nothing more I can add to this thread that hasn't already been said!
I will say however that there is more to the Hull attack than the article states. I am not going to go into details, it isn't my place to, but this is one case where the dog was not at fault! As stated previously, sometimes it's bad owners.. !

Iain, good luck for the future :)

there is more to the Hull attack than the article states

There's been an attack Hull as well ?? The link I posted wasn't about an attack in Hull but the paper is prinited in Hull & very very antidog BTW as you will know if you get the paper(I don't due to the past totally incorrect stories it has run-including one many years ago about my dogs killing a cat-which was alive & well & living with them by the time the report hit the front page-I skim the paper on the net)

>the paper is prinited in Hull & very very antidog BTW

Ah! i had a read of that article and felt i had to comment on some of the things written it it. Your comment above Moonmaiden would then explain why my comments have not been posted when someone elses have been. Unless of course theres a delay in putting it on the site, but as i sent my comments yesterday teatime i somehow doubt this. :(

They never retracted the story aboutr my dogs even though I had a court order to force them to do so, I was lucky that the local TV & radio presenters at the time were known to me & they covered the correct story ! ie the cat dived bombed the dogs(it was his party trick)from the trees & then did circuits of the garden before going back into the tree to catch his breath before doing it again LOL they even had him doing on TV !

I know it wasn't actually in Hull, sorry, it was late, I was reffering to the paper report being Hull :(
I also see how it's totally anti-dog & I agree that this may be why other comments aren't appearing :(

P.S I don't get the paper but I was sent the link to the hull paper report, & then it was on our local news last night,but I had heard about it prior to that! :(

Yes, it is a terrible thing. But many people forget that dogs, even purely 'pet' dogs, are animals not deformed furry children, and will react with their instincts - just as humans do too - we all know about PMT, after all! Any new mother, of whatever species, will defend her young, and it's unwise to forget it.

What an awful thing to have to read and an even worse one for a child to endure.  Children must come first and the dog should have been put to sleep at once to ensure no chance of repeat. 

Best wishes to you all and may you get the outcome you seek.

i really do have mixed feelings about this.

my first feeling is that the owner is at fault & the bitch should not be put to sleep.

but then maybe if the owner is clearly a idiot then he should not be allowed to keep this bitch (agressive or not) as he clearly has no control or understanding as a bitch with pups ,or a large guarding breed.

then the question is what to do with the bitch if not PTS.
back to breeder?if its a responsible one
Breed rescue?
whatever,it would have to be an experinced home with the breed & no childern ever likely to be visiting,

i feel that the owner can no longer keep this dog however.
Such a shame for the bitch.-to be pts over natural urges.

Ian,i really feel for you, & as you are not a dog owner you may find some of our opinions strange!
i know you are only trying to do what you think is right .

Would it not help the child?

I doubt it,on top of everything else she is now responsible for a dog being killed,cant see any kid being happy about that! The father's not helping in this matter either,i can see future resentment from daughter to father coming into it aswell.I cant see him going at it hammer and tongs and goin gto the sun of all places:rolleyes: changing anything except giving the BM a bad name! It's been to court the judge made the decision,let the poor  kid MOVE ON,instead of making her re-live it at every opportunity!

Hello ive just read about your little girl being attacked i would just like to send my sympathey how horribe to be honest i hate those dogs ive never met a friendly one.I think the fact the dog hasnt been put down is absolutly discusting and the owners should be ashamed of there self.Can you not sue them to be honest if its been said in court that the dog should live then i really dont know what you do im so very sorry good luck tho!Tell your little girl how brave she is as she sounds it to me bless from kirsty

>i hate those dogs ive never met a friendly one

that was a useful comment :rolleyes:

you obviously havent met many bull mastiffs - I personally have never met a nasty one.

i hate those dogs ive never met a friendly one

I doubt you have met more than a couple. The bullmastiffs are by nature a friendly dog Long ago back in the 1960's & 70's they weren't but the breed has improved a lot since then. All the ones (even the non show ones) I have met have been fine & really nice with my GSDs when I was showing them

just a thought, but would I be right in saying that bull mastiffs were bred to bundle someone to the ground (poachers ? ) and hold them there rather than bite ? or am I thinking of a completely different breed

http://www.geocities.com/ancientguardianbullmastiffs/history.html

that link has come up as unavailable

Probably gone over it's bandwidth here's a quote

The foundation breeding was 60% Mastiff and 40% Bulldog. The known history of the Bullmastiff begins about the year 1860 in England. These dogs were bred to act as the gamekeeper's assistant with the ability to chase and immobilize poachers on the estates. Their speed, strength and endurance enabled them to overtake and capture intruders without mauling or killing them. It is probable that the story of the breed is really centuries old, but proof is difficult.



ah thank you, so I did read correctly, might not be true though :rolleyes:

I've only seen one and that was at our training club.  He was still a youngster although he was fully grown.  His owners had play-wrestled with him from when he was a small pup but now it was no longer fun (for the owners).  The dog would get in front of the owners and put his paws on their shoulders for a wrestle.  His sheer weight leaning against their shoulders meant that the husband couldn't move forward and the wife would end up being pushed backwards.  The dog had a fantastic temperment apparently and you could see that there was no hint of aggression just playfulness, however, he would try and wrestle anytime unexpectedly.  Just goes to show how you really need to know your breed and how to raise them without creating problems for yourself.

think some of you dog lovers cant have kids (no feelings) sad people

My dogs ARE my kids ..What's sad about that please ?? No I do not have human kids (yet) but maybe one day, but my dogs need me every day to be there for them,they make me laugh, cry, spend my money, share the good times & the bad..Why do I need a child to give me emotions ?
I feel sorry for anybody that gets atacked or bitten by a dog as it is darn painful, but each case is different,& should be viewed on it's own merits.

ooooh sam come on now!
two wrongs never make a right.
Spare some respect to Iain and his family and dont let this thread degenerate into mud slinging.
*deep sigh* It just really not appropriate right now..surely?

Pretty strong thing to say there sam. I've got 2 kids,whats your point!

>think some of you dog lovers cant have kids (no feelings) sad people<

I think it may be time to lock this thread if we're going to start getting stupid and totally irrelevant comments like that.

The dog that tried TO KILL your daughter should be long under ground,  with a litter of  5 week old pups a bitch should be fine about her pups  having visitors  , that aside its not as if your daughter was anywhere near the pups when it happened, for whatever reason this bitch didnt just look upset, grumble or warn you off it went in for THE KILL, there is no place for a dog who will attack all out meaning to do as much damage as possible , it may of been hormones, might be bad temperament or poor management but it has it within its capabilities to want to end someones life , if it was my daughter i too would feel the need to have this unstable bitch destroyed, shame on the owners how can they look at it and not see it clamped around your daughter, i couldnt have that  on my conscience  :(

Please tell your daughter just how special she really is, how brave and also so very pretty.

no i dont have kids & would never ever want to. why does that make me sad?

I'm so sorry this terrible thing happened to your brave and beautiful daughter, Iain.  I can't believe some of the comments you have received on this thread.  I would be shouting too if it had happened to me! 
If it was my dog I certainly would have had it destroyed immediately.  I love my dogs but everyones child comes before any dog in a civilised world as far as I am concerned, I simply would not want to keep a dog remotely capable of such action, with or without pups.  I think it a shame action cannot be taken within a home under the DDA because if owners invite people into their homes they are surely responsible for what happens there.  I think it irrelevent how experienced you or your girls were about dogs the dog owner could have invited someone who had no experience round to see the dogs, many people would have just assumed a dog in someones home was safe.  If the dog is put to sleep I don't believe you, and even less so your daughter, should feel at all guilty neither of you are to blame in the least as far as I can see.

>I think it a shame action cannot be taken within a home under the DDA because if owners invite people into their homes they are surely responsible for what happens there<

& if it did apply & a visitor/guest attacked the dog/owner etc & the dog bit in pure defence then the dog would be PTS(happened to a chap who asked a bogus salesman into his house & then "guest"then attacked him & his dog saved it's owners life you would have this dog PTS under the DDA there would be no other alternative) Don't forget the DDA also covers being "frightened"so anyone who came into your house who was frightened of dogs could get your dog PTS The dog wouldn't even have to do anything ! it could even be in a kennel outside asleep !

If someone has gained entry under under false pretences they would not be a "guest" they would be a criminal and the laws permitting reasonable self defence would apply.  But we are talking about, here, a dog that was not reacting to any attack of its owner and I think the law should cover this sort of event.  There is no place in society for such a dog in my opinion.

Isabel I agree with you. 

To those of you who say the child would feel 'responsible' if this dog was put down - how can a child be 'responsible' for that?  The owner is responsible for his dog and its behaviour and if it were my child, I would feel that I had maybe saved another child/adult from a savage attack or worse.

People do forget that animals are not simply furry children - but equally some seem to forget that a child's safety should be paramount in society.  I do not agree that this attack should be brushed aside as the result of hormones or 'motherly instincts' - all animals (including humans) have methods other than killing to protect their young and if they don't choose an alternative, then they should not be given a second chance.  If that dog had simply been protecting her young, one warning snap/bite should have been enough to deal with the situation - after all the girl was no real threat and a dog with a good temperament would know that. 

Agree wholeheartedly Alexanders.

One of my children was bitten badly by a pet (not a dog) when she was younger. I had that pet put to sleep. Did my daughter feel responsible?  Not at all, she felt SAFE. She has even gone on to NOT have a dislike or fear of that type of animal.

I was wondering what would be the views of everybody if say, the attacking animal had been a mare protecting her foal, a cow protecting her calf?

Not too far from me, a cow attacked and seriously injured a walker who was allowed to be walking in the area (it was on the Purbecks, a cliff top walk). This was deemed to be because she was hormonal, protecting her calf etc...she had not attacked anyone before. As far as I know the cow was not put to sleep ... is it different because this is a pet dog, and if so, why is it different?

I'm not for or against putting to sleep, I don't know enough about the case, but wondered if views might change if it was a different kind of animal, but still a person innocently in their area.

Lindsay
x

Every year walkers are attacked by cows with calves, and the Ramblers' Association repeats warnings about how dangerous any mother animal can be when she feels her offspring are at risk.

I always avoid cow fields :P

Lindsay
x

Me too! :D

I don't like going through fields of cows either and tend to avoid them apart from those where the pathways are so frequented that the cows do not take any notice.  I don't think many farmers put calving cows in footpathed fields, not round our way anyway, but I have long thought there should be a law against it.  Cows are not companion animals though, so there temperament is obviously not of so great an issue as a dog's.

I have a cow story :rolleyes: OH & I set out before friends to meet at pub. Staying in farmhouse & decided rather than walk through the cows' field we would try another way. Got lost, ended up walking through farm yard (I was very frightened as knew was tresspassing) OH kept striding on, me tottering behind until we got to another field, could see a car park at the far end so carried on.  Farmer (whether by accident or design, who knows?) let cows out of milkiing shed and they headed straight for us purposefully I was terrified and now in front of OH, looked behind and one was just about on his shoulder.  Adjoining field with 5ft stinging nettles was looking rather appealing. Got to end of field and faced with steep bank and stream. Not too much hesitation, hop, skip and splosh and was over.  As climbed up bank I misjudged the iron bar surrounding car park and nearly knocked myself out.  After all that friends got to pub first :rolleyes:

Our case is mounting a great deal of pressure,let me tell you,if the dog is not put to sleep i will be able to say we did what we could to prevent this happeneing again,it seems to have been in all the papers today,and is on North Tonight's Grampian ITV News tonight,we are going to try to keep in contact with the hull family whos daughter cannot speak just now and her jaw is paralysed,we as a family can help them through it,
we are a very strong,nice family,it is a very sad day when we must rely on media pressure to help us get our appeal in edinburgh instead of the usual justice system,the local procurator fiscal and msp's are on our side and we have their backing.
if there is a moderator here somewhere maybe you would like to help me close this post down as i think it has served its purpose and all views read thoroughly and taken on board,we are not a dog-hating family,quite the opposite.
Thank you for all your kind words of support,my daughter has enjoyed reading them all.
Take care all and your website is fantastic as im sure your dogs are too.Its time to move on
x x x x x {{{{{{hugs}}}}}} from Demi and the fraser family

Bye Iain = Good luck to you all and whatever happens I hope you find peace of mind :)