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Topic Dog Boards / Behaviour / my girl savaged by bull mastiff,help need advice !!!! please
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- By Brainless [gb] Date 16.01.06 11:19 UTC
As the bitch was away from ehr litter and they ahd just been bathed I would imagine these were not newborn pups but at the active stage.
- By Jeangenie [gb] Date 16.01.06 11:26 UTC
The absence of the bitch could be for many reasons: when the vet comes to do the dewclaws I shut the bitch in another part of the house - also the bitch could have been taken out for exercise (mine like to go for short walks away from the house from about 4 days after whelping. That's why I asked the pups' age - a bitch strongly defending very young whelps is a different kettle of fish to a bitch entering a room and attacking. :)
- By iainfraser [in] Date 16.01.06 12:53 UTC
I think now is about time to close this discussion,i have had the varied views that i was seeking,thank you all very much for your support and concern,i cannot let this go incase it happens again.
THANK YOU ALL XXXX

From Demi,Melissa,Iain and Wendy
- By Jeangenie [gb] Date 16.01.06 13:07 UTC
Iain, before you go, please tell us the age of the puppies when this horrible attack happened.
- By iainfraser [gb] Date 16.01.06 17:17 UTC
i think the pupies were 5 weeks old when we visited because i thought i'd leave it a while for the bitch to settle with her pups,obviously wasnt long enough,the breeder wanted me to see them right after they were born but i said we'd wait
- By Jeangenie [gb] Date 16.01.06 17:24 UTC
Thanks for the clarification, Iain. :)
- By mackleback Date 16.01.06 13:10 UTC
I am so sorry to hear what has happened to your daughter. I hope she is ok. My thoughts and best wishes go to you and your family. {{{{HUGS}}}} i hope you get justice. xx
- By JanG [gb] Date 16.01.06 13:22 UTC
This is purely a comment from personal experience - not a solution I'm afraid.  Although I'm an owner/breeder of Bullmastiffs, this is not breed related. 
Dogs have always been my passion and, when I was a child, our entire school holidays were spent at my aunt/uncle's farm where they had Border Collies.  One year, when I was about 7 years of age, one of their bitches, Floss, had a litter of pups which were still young enough to be suckling from her.  We were from a farming family, so it seemed quite normal for the pups to be totally unsupervised around the bitch - either in her kennel or in the farmyard.  I was fascinated by the little mites and spent most of the day with one or other of them in my arms.  However, one day Floss was feeding her pups in her kennel and I - in my childish ignorance - approached her and bent down to watch.  Now, Floss knew me and normally loved being petted by me, but her maternal instincts completely overrode everything else, and she flew at me without warning and bit me in the face, nearly taking my bottom lip off.  I ran indoors to my mother and aunt - blood everywhere.  My sister told them what had happened and I was rushed off to the Doctor for treatment and medication.  The outcome of the story was that I was severely reprimanded for going near a nursing bitch as she was protecting her young and told never to do it again.  Floss received no punishment whatsoever - rightly so - as she was only showing her basic instincts and no retribution was taken, or expected.  Not only that - as the situation had been explained to me, I felt no fear whatsoever of Floss for the remainder of the holiday nor have of any dog since.  But I had learned from an early age that bitches with puppies can behave in an abnormal (to humans) manner. 
I know it's a different scenario but bitches can be notoriously unpredictable and can behave totally out of character when they have a litter.  If a dog feels threatened, or feels that its young are threatened, it can only make its feelings known by its mouth.  It can't shout, as a human being can, or even throw a punch.  Its mouth is its defence.
Naturally I feel sorry for the little girl and family but I hope this child will not be brought up now to fear all dogs.
- By iainfraser [gb] Date 16.01.06 18:05 UTC
I MUST POINT OUT AT THIS STAGE,MYSELF AND MY DAUGHTERS WERE ON OUR WAY OUT OF THE HOUSE WELL AWAY FROM THE PUPS....
I COULD HAVE POSSIBLY LEFT WITH MY OWN GUILT IF WE WERE HANDLING THE PUPS AT THE TIME OF THE ATTACK.
- By Moonmaiden Date 16.01.06 18:18 UTC
Please don't keep using caps it is the equilavalent of shouting on the internet & won't gain you anything
- By theemx [gb] Date 16.01.06 22:54 UTC
Stop shouting Ian. You asked for our opinions and you are getting them.

YOU may not see a reason for the bite, but the bitch clearly did and that is why it  happened.

The owner should be responsible for the actions of his dog, he should have known of the possibility of the bitch being aggressive towards strangers whilst she had pups. He is negligent.

However, you took a risk, you were ignorant of those risks. You made bad decision to go and visit those dogs and very sadly your daughter paid the price of that.

I fail to see how the dog is in herself a risk to anyone if handled responsibly in the future. She has not attacked unprovoked in a public place, she WAS provoked merely by your presence, in her own home, there is nothing to suggest here that that dog is going to go out in the parks mauling children.

The court have made a judgement and you are doing yourself and more importantly your children NO favours by dragging it through papers such as the Sun etc.

What can i ask, does going to such a pathetic rag as The Sun do, what will that acheive? A nice chunk of money for you, some local fame perhaps.
Its not going to take back the fact that two adults made some errors based on ignorance and a child suffered the consequences, and i highly doubt its going to make your daughter feel happy.

Em
- By Brainless [gb] Date 17.01.06 00:58 UTC Edited 17.01.06 01:08 UTC
Maybe it is a breed thing, but I would not expect a bitch with a 5 week old litter to be over protective when I had visitors (my girls have been happy to show off their pups from birth), though I always introduced people to all the adults first before they ever get to see the pups.

I can't see how anyone can be blamed for taking a risk when invited to view a litter by the breeder.  How on earth do people socialise their pups if they don't think it safe to have people with children visit them.

A well balanced bitch should be used to visitors, and able to cope with them, especially if they are not anywhere near her pups, and would be expected to trust her owner to the extent that any invited guest is not seen as a threat.

By 5 weeks old most bitches of my aquaintance are at the stage of saying look you can look after the pups now I will just pop in to see your doing it right, and with mien are more than happy for the other canine members of the family to take some of the heat off them.
- By Goldmali Date 17.01.06 01:34 UTC
Maybe it is a breed thing, but I would not expect a bitch with a 5 week old litter to be over protective when I had visitors

Exactly. And my breed is a guarding breed but by 4-5 weeks of age I certainly expect to be able to have people view the pups AND meet the mother.
- By LindyLou [gb] Date 16.01.06 13:26 UTC
This is partly one of the reasons that I always let the visitors meet mum FIRST If she is unhappy there are not any pups around and it is far easier to control her. Not that I've had a problem. So far. ;) Only when she is happy (she tells me by sitting on their laps :eek: ) will I let anyone neer the pups. Then I let them look but not touch if the pups are very young. If they are at the playful stage I try to let them play outside. With mum in tow. I also try to keep myself close to mum so that I can interfere if needed. I do not discourage visitors from bringing their children. After all, the new owners need to know that mum is safe with kids. Otherwise why buy a pup in the first place? It will only go back to the breeder, or end up in rescue, because things aren't working out :(

Iain. I know this is not what you want to hear. When my oldest daughter was attacked she almost lost the use of her hand. Like you, I wanted the dog destroyed. After all, if it could attack a 4 year old child that had said hello to it for months what would it do to someone else? The police at that time told me there was nothing they could do as way back then (early 80's) they were allowed 'one bite'. I had to put it behind me and get on with life. My daughter still has the scars, both physical and mental. I really think that, for your daughter's sake, you have to find an ending to this. You have to be able to put this behind you and move on. It sounds like Demi has put this behind her and got on with her life. Please don't let it turn you into a sour person. You obviously care about your family, so don't let it ruin your relationship with them. For your sake. :)
- By iainfraser [gb] Date 16.01.06 18:10 UTC
thank you for those comments,dont get us wrong,we stand totally together on this matter,along with near enough our entire town.
there will be an end in site.
it is beginning to look like we will get an appeal through crown prosecution.
justice might prevail after all
- By Jeangenie [gb] Date 16.01.06 18:21 UTC
Has it been pointed out to you that there's no point in using the DDA in this case, because that only applies when the person is in a public place? If you were in the house you'll need to use another law. I'm surprised your solicitor didn't point that out.
- By vivian [gb] Date 16.01.06 16:57 UTC
Two and a half years after being attacked by two Russian Blacks while walking up the road, I still risk getting run over ever day by going onto the road instead of walking on the path outside the frount of they house, yes outside on the pavement, they had my arm and shouder and it was a real mess. I didnt ask for the dog's to be put to sleep just controlled, it was reported because the thought of it being a child scared me to death. The police took it to court because the officer that came to see me got attacked (but not so vicously) when he went to see the owner, they still only recieved a control order. After the court case we found out that a sixteen old boy had been attaked by one of the dog's but there was nothing we could do about it as his Mother had settled out of court. I havent seen the dogs (who by the way are litter brothers) out since then, but dread the day they ever get out because a child WILL be killed. I still train dogs but if I see a large black shape coming towards me I run a mile, I know this may sound stupid to some of you but if it caused that much tremor with me, well dont think I should say any more or I will go on for pages.
- By marguerite [gb] Date 17.01.06 17:36 UTC
I see from the newspaper "The Sun" that this  is in todays paper.  The owner of the bullmastiff has said "that if ordered by the judge, she would have had the dog destroyed". I know how I would feel if this happened to one of my grandchildren, but, again as another poster said "what age were the pups" if they were just a few days/weeks old I would not invite anyone round to see them, except immediate family that the bitch knows well and will accept them into the house.
- By Isabel Date 17.01.06 17:41 UTC
The pups were 5 weeks old, Marguerite, an age when many breeders would be expecting their future owners to visit and, indeed, see them with the mother as advised by so many welfare organisations as a means of selecting from mothers of good temperament.
- By susantwenty? [gb] Date 15.01.06 23:41 UTC
Im so sorry to read your terrible ordeal but i dont blame the dog, the owner should have been aware that the bitch can be protective of her new litter, what a shame the bullmastiff is a lovely breed im so sorry for you and your family:eek:

Regards Susan
- By CherylS Date 15.01.06 23:47 UTC
This is the type of thing that every parent dreads.  What an awful awful thing to happen.  I hope as time passes the pain you all feel will fade to a bad memory.  Hard to imagine but hopefully it will.

I just found a picture of your daughter and I have to say I think she looks beautiful.  She has what I call a sunshine smile, the type of smile that lights up her face and warms your heart.  I know you can probably see scars that I can't but her sunshine smile will be what people will see overall.  You must be very proud of her :)
- By iainfraser [in] Date 16.01.06 00:11 UTC
where did you find a picture ? are you local to tayside scotland ?
i am moved you actually looked and found one.
she lights up my everyday.
but the guilt i feel sometimes eats me up inside,
now i must be strong for her and the rest of my beautiful family,they are all i have in the world and the most precious thing ever to me.
I wont let this rest until i have exhausted every avenue possible to prevent this happeneing again .
I wouldnt be able to live with the knowledge of not doing everything in my power to save some other child.
i have also to add another guy from work was meant to take his 3 year old to see the puppies the next day but something else came up,i had him around my house a week later crying his eyes out feeling sorry for demi but glad for his own child.
I COULD HAVE BEEN A POSSIBLE BUYER FOR THE PUPPIES AND THIS STILL WOULD'VE HAPPENED TO US.
we only went for a look and were on our way out of the door.
I SO WISH I COULD TAKE THAT DAY BACK,OR HAVE THE DOG BITE ME INSTEAD...........
- By CherylS Date 16.01.06 00:33 UTC
No, not Scotland, I'm in the SE. I googled your daughter's name and found The Courier article with her photo. 

I understand that you need to do all you can to prevent this happening again and I would feel the same I am sure.   Whatever you need to do you need to do it quickly so that you can draw a line under this experience and move on.  Your daughter will not be able to move on until she can see you have put this down.  Until you have finished pursuing what you need to the experience is kept in the present and you need to draw a line under it and move forward.  Do you see what I mean?

Your daughter is here and she is lovely and you obviously love your family very much :) so don't let this experience stop you from going on to enjoy your family life.  You need to do this for your daughter because you don't want her to look back and this be the only prominant thing she remembers
- By iainfraser [in] Date 16.01.06 00:48 UTC
Thank you for your kind comments,
xxx
- By Lyssa [gb] Date 16.01.06 10:10 UTC
Iain, it is a terrible, terrible thing that has happened, thank God that your daughter is still alive and well. In no way shape or form is what happened to your daughter your fault, the dog owner is 100% at fault. You could possibly take out a private prosecution against the dog owner, but to be honest I do not feel you will have any luck in getting an order to put this dog to sleep, not after you have gone through the legal system to do so and got nowhere. A private prosecution is going to take years, and you will not get what you wish even at the end of that, only moneytary value.

I can understand why you wish to, I really do understand, and that the pictures in your head of that day will not go away.  I have children too and would be hell bent on justice and revenge too to start with. Which you have done. You have shown your family that you did not take this lying down, that you stood up and went for justice.

Now for the sake of your sanity, for the sake of your marriage and your children, you need to let it go. Everything that you love you will destroy in trying to seek further revenge for what has happened, anger and revenge are all consuming.

Re-build the bridges with your family, your children need to see love not revenge. You need closure. Sometimes we don't win or get the justice we need, don't let what happened destroy a loving family. Look at what you have and thank God that you have your daughter and family and a whole life still ahead of you..............Let it go now.
- By TansysMum [gb] Date 16.01.06 11:50 UTC
My heart goes out to you and your family. I have to agree that it is in no way your fault. I don't know you or your family, but in all honesty I would not consider myself an 'experienced' dog owner. Frankly, when my kids were little, if someone had invited us to come and see puppies, we would have gone, especially as the dog apparently wouldn't hurt a fly.
I have had some excellent advice about my pup on this forum, but people should not assume that everyone understands breeding and behaviour of new mums.
Please lay off a bit folks......the man just took his children to see some puppies for goodness sake, and was invited to do so!!

Iain, concentrate on the love between you and your family now. You all need each others support. My prayers are with you

Wendy xx
- By Annie ns Date 16.01.06 11:51 UTC
Iain,  I'd also like to add that you have already done your very best to try to stop this happening to any other child.  That heavy responsibility now lies with the dog's owner and the judge.  Your daughter is so brave and beautiful and hopefully will be able to put this behind her and move on.
- By jalle [gb] Date 16.01.06 01:35 UTC
just saw the scars on your daughters face,they do not detract from her beauty one little bit. she is a little star , be proud.
- By Teri Date 16.01.06 07:45 UTC
Demi is beautiful Iain and you must be so proud of her :)

I hope you as a family can soon put this horrific incident behind you although fully understand and admire your determination to prevent this dog ever being able to do such a thing again.

As an animal lover it is not something I would ever advocate lightly, but can see no other resolution than this dog be euthanised and frankly can't comprehend why it was not the owner's first step as soon as Demi was on her way to hospital :(

Best wishes to all of your family. 
God bless,

Teri :)

- By jalle [gb] Date 16.01.06 00:00 UTC
what a tragedy. i really feel for your little girl, to have been so savagely attacked, she sounds very brave.if it was my dog i would not hesitate to have it p.t.s. no dog should behave in this way. good luck for the future , you could
not predict this, the bitches owner should have been more aware. the guilt is not yours . so sad for your family ,you seem like a very loving dad.
- By polly_45 [gb] Date 16.01.06 00:16 UTC
So sorry to hear of your daughters ordeal...my ? is when you arrived at casualty with your daughter did the staff there not notify the police of the incident...I am led to believe that the A&E dept have a right to notify the police of any dog attacks on humans...so why have the police not taken this on board...The police at the time of this incident could of removed the dog from your friends and taken action against them...Also you do say you know the JP who heard the case...errr my opinion is it should of been heard by someone unknown to you..whether you were the defendant or the accused a jp should not hear a case where he/she knows either party...
I hope you can get some closure to this and your daughter recovers xx
- By clanrobbo [gb] Date 16.01.06 01:48 UTC
Iain, your story had me welling up as i read it....what a horrific ordeal for you all to go through! I cant imagine how terrifying this must have been for you all! Being a father of 5 i can understand you emotions of guilt etc.. but this was not your fault in anyway...you trusted the dogs owner who should have had more sense.
And i am a great believer in the old saying "you dont get bad dogs...only bad owners".
With that said, the dog should have been destroyed without question.
I read your story in the courier aswell, you must be so proud of Demi...what a brave wee lass! Although it will take time...i really do hope demi, melissa and you can trust dogs again in the future.
I own 2 bullmastiffs....and if i can be of any help building your confidence in dogs and this breed, please let me know...i'm down in the scottish Borders and would gladly travel to help!

All the best
Robbo
- By Lior [gb] Date 16.01.06 03:34 UTC
Ian I am truly sad that this happened to your little girl.

I myself was attacked and mauled by a mastiff when I was a child and know what a harrowing experience it is. The animal jumped my fence to get at me while I was playing with my sister on a swingset. I still have the scars on my thighs and back.

I whole heartedly beleive that the animal should be euthenaised. Aggression like that is not acceptable in any way and dispite what people say - that its your fault for taking the girls etc - the fact remains that the dog attacked, severely harmed your baby and would have killed her had a grown man not foced the animal off.

You said he is laying civil claim against you? Are you in a position to file a counter claim? For medical costs incurred and mental / phsycial trauma? If so it may be an idea speaking to a lawyer about it.

Dont relent, please persevere in making sure that the matter doesnt go un-resolved.

I hope that the matter gets sorted out to your satifaction.

Give your girl a big hug for me.
- By simmyg67 [gb] Date 16.01.06 05:33 UTC
Hi Iain
Im just relpying to say there are some good owners of dogs i was in the same sitution about 6yrs ago my Staffordshire Bull Terrier bite one of my son's friends in our garden he was only proctecting his own but the family decided after the little girl needed 64 stitches in her foot we could no longer trust him it broke all of our hearts don't get me wrong but this so called friend should of known better have you been in touch with the k.c club because i think they should be told that there is aggression in the mum that should be looked at i do believe it's down to the owner how a dog turns out but there is good and bad in every walks of life animals and humans i hope your little girl is not badly scarred and i think everyone on champdogs feel the same
Best Wishes
Simmone and Lola
- By Hailey Date 16.01.06 05:57 UTC
i hope your little girl is not badly scarred and i think everyone on champdogs feel the same

Definately,i do.

Can i ask what putting this dog to sleep will achieve? :confused:

I really believe in Blaming the owner,NOT the dog!

What if the dog had killed her?  Would you still feel the same

It's hard to say Cheryl. I cant help comparing my dogs to my kids,i love them all the same! If my child murdered someone i would not want them to get the death penalty! Even tho when humans murder or commit violent acts they know exactly what they are doing and what the consequences are for doing so. I have NO idea why this dog acted out like it did,there has to be a reason?? However she did not know the consequences of her attacking this child,so can not be held accountable,and surely not by death! I think the owner will be 100% vigilant in the future to ensure this NEVER happens again!
- By Trevor [gb] Date 16.01.06 06:32 UTC
Much as I love my dogs if they showed this amount of aggression irrespective of the circumstances they would be PTS. A large dog of any guarding breed MUST be 100% in temperament before the owner even thinks of breeding from it.

It is inevitable when you have a litter of pups that folk will want to come a visit - in fact it's really important that they do, so that the pups can be well socialised - I would be horrified if one of my bitches acted in this way towards visitors.

Give your wee girl a big hug  and try and reassure her that not all big dogs ( or their owners) are like this.

Yvonne
- By Dawn B [in] Date 16.01.06 07:00 UTC
The dog needs PTS in my opinion, ANY dog of ANY breed that attcked in my home, whilst I was present, would of been dead within the hour, my opinion only.

I would opt for the "publicity" angle, inform local press etc.. and possibly sue for compensation, I tell you this I wouldnt quit till it was dead.

Very sorry for your daughter Iain, she is a beautiful girl, I hope in time she can regain trust in dogs.
Dawn.
- By Hailey Date 16.01.06 08:45 UTC
The dog needs PTS in my opinion, ANY dog of ANY breed that attcked in my home, whilst I was present, would of been dead within the hour, my opinion only.

Do you not have any feelings for this dog or yours ? :( What if your dogs attacked outside the home,would it be a different story then?? Personally i think a dog would be more prone to protecting inside the home than away from it!


I would opt for the "publicity" angle, inform local press etc.. and possibly sue for compensation, I tell you this I wouldnt quit till it was dead.


I pray your dogs never bite anyone!!! Hopefully no kid ever torments your dog or teases it into biting them,it would be no fault of the dog,as long as it was dead within the hour :rolleyes:
- By Dawn B [in] Date 17.01.06 21:43 UTC
Pray all you like, if a dog of mine attacked a child in an unprovoked attack it would be PTS no question.
Dawn.
- By theemx [gb] Date 16.01.06 09:47 UTC
Ah but dawn, you wouldnt invite kids round to see new puppies would ya!

I think if this were MY dog, then i would be seriously questioning if i could live iwth it knowing what it had done.

But thats not putting a dog down because of blame, the blame here lies with the owner and the adult responsible for children (you have children you check the risks before you do stuff! The fact that you dont KNOW the risks is your problem).

For me, if one of my dogs did that i would question if i could treat that dog the same as i had before, and if the answer was no, i would pts.

But then i would be so stupid as to invite people my dogs had never met round at a stressful time for the dogs such as having puppies (not that thats likely since i dont have an entire bitch!).

Em
- By Teri Date 16.01.06 07:39 UTC
Hailey I can't believe you've posted in these terms - it's at best totally insensitive :(

>I have NO idea why this dog acted out like it did,there has to be a reason??


It could be a neurological problem with the dog or some other medical cause but none of us will ever know and in such a savage attack IMO it's immaterial.   I'm more than a little inclined to love my dogs similarly to children but there is a line and if one of mine had done such a thing it would have been on a one way car journey to the vet immediately the child had been taken to hospital - I wouldn't give myself time for "second thoughts" because IMO no responsible person would take the chance of a repeat incident.

>I really believe in Blaming the owner,NOT the dog!


That's more often than not the case but realistically there are rogue dogs - some of them with the best, most experienced and most dedicated owners who can do nothing with them - not every dog, just as not every human, is born free of psychological problems!

> I think the owner will be 100% vigilant in the future to ensure this NEVER happens again!


An assumption that none of us are in a position to make :(
- By devishly_shell [gb] Date 16.01.06 07:53 UTC
i showed my oldest daughter your story like me her heart when out to your daughter and she eyed my dog in a new light, i still stand my wot i have said the if my dog EVER bite any child she would be put to sleep no questions asked.
i looked into bull mastiffs (and might be the same for other breeds) but they have a trigger that means if they set their mind on something they do it ( my dog is a cross bull mastiff).
i blame the owner for letting the dog into the room when you and your daughter was there, they shoud have known better.
- By thomas-the-spot [gb] Date 16.01.06 08:30 UTC
This is the exact reason I never allow people to go anywhere near my girls when they are in the same room as the puppies.  Even the most good natured dogs can turn where their puppies are involved.  To be honest even my children are not allowed to go near the puppies until they are a few weeks old because my girls are all very very protective.  This does mean they are unstable the rest of the time but when the puppies are tiny go back to basics and do not want anybody or anything near them :mad:  How old were these puppies?

I can see both sides of this arguement I think the owner was irresponsible letting the dog in and I feel so sorry for the girl.  If the dog was not aggressive normally and I am assuming it isnt as nobody would allow a dog in the same room as a child if they had thought for one minute it was going to attack then I do think the judge made the right decision.  Unfortunately none of this is going to help your poor daughter and if it was me I would feel exactly the same as you do.
- By LucyD [gb] Date 16.01.06 08:39 UTC
What an awful thing to have happened; I agree the owner is mainly at fault. Either he had some idea the bitch might be protective, in which case he should not have let her in, or he had no idea, in which case he should be as horrified as most of us are at this attack, and sadly I feel she should be pts. I've googled your daughter's article too and I don't think the scars will show too much - she's a very brave and very pretty girl. :-)
- By CherylS Date 16.01.06 08:37 UTC
Hailey, that's where we differ then because I always put my children before anything or anyone else.  The love I have for my children will never compare to the love I have for my dog.  It's totally different.

>Can i ask what putting this dog to sleep will achieve?


It will never have the opportunity to do this again. 

>I cant help comparing my dogs to my kids,i love them all the same! If my child murdered someone i would not want them to get the death penalty!


But what if someone murdered your kids would you feel the same?  Try to imagine it or perhaps try to imagine if this dog had ripped the face off one your dogs.

It would be upsetting for the owner to have the dog PTS but can it be more upsetting than knowing what this dog is now capable of? Personally I couldn't live with that. The way I see it when a dog is PTS it doesn't suffer, they don't know that it's happening and they don't have their parents, siblings, sons, daughters, grieving over them.

I don't think we will agree on this one because I can't imagine putting a dog, on par with a child ;) I guessed you didn't have children so it just goes to show how different people can think.
- By DoglessInSussex [gb] Date 16.01.06 09:06 UTC
Can i iterject here please.

I am a theatre Nurse,  I have lost count of the children we have had to "sew up" in theatres, most of these children have not been bitten by dogs outside the home, but usually by " grannies/aunties/uncles/mum's dog, the dog who would never hurt anyone, the dog that could be trusted with children, the dog that has never done it before.  It is, and it is only my opinion, that children and dogs should not be left alone together, after all a dog is a dog and a child is a child, both totally unpredictable in different situations.  So I do not blame the dog, I do not blame the child, I can only voice this from my expereinces at work.  I am sure many of you have children and dogs that mix well together, but many of my patients have mixed well together untill the incident occurs, and then, for some children and dogs, it is to late, one is left badly scarred and traumatised, the other is PTS.
- By Lindsay Date 16.01.06 09:59 UTC
It's hard to comment but I'm so sorry for your daughter and family.

Would it be an idea to contact PAT dogs or a similar organisation to help her feel confident around dogs again; it may help to give her some kind of closure somewhere along the line :)

The attack sounds horrific. From what you say, the owner may not have been an experienced bullmastiff owner. I note he had the dog on a chain -  whether lead or collar, that to me suggests a lack of knowledge as it's very hard to hold a big dog on a chain, but those who use chains on big dogs tend to be pulled all over the place I've noticed.

I suspect the dog owner was at fault - he didn't understand or perhaps train his own dog. The dog probably did have hormones all over the place as well. The dog may not have been socialised to visitors either - how old was the dog herself?

Dr Ian Dunbar, the vet/behaviourist, has made up a  "bite level" chart - it denotes what the chances are of a dog being successfully rehabiliated after biting...

The levels are from 1-6.

Level 1 - growls, shows teeth, barks, stares, snaps, no contact (human equivalent, argument or warning)

Level 2 - single bite, saliva, no puncture (human equivalent, push/shove)

Level 3 single bite, 1-4 punctures, 1/2 as deep or less as the dog's canine (human equivalent - assault, punch)

Level 4 - single bite, 1-4 punctures, greater than 1/2 as deep as dogs canines; or shakes, there will be bruising evident within 2 days for veryhard bites (human equivalent, assault with bodily harm)

Level 5 - Multiple bites, greater than 1/2 as deep as dog's canine or shakes. Mauling. (human equivalent; same)

Level 6 - Fatality (human equivalent, same).

Dogs with 1-3 are relatively easy to work with because the bite is inhibited.
Dogs with 4 are considered dangerous, but some behaviourists will work with the dog and owner
Dogs with 5 and 6 are considered very dangerous and many behaviourists willnot work with them to rehabilitate. If a dog has mauled or killed a familyi member, it's recommended the dog is pts as the psychological trauma faced by the family will not be healed with the dog around. Also prognosis is very poor for rehab.

Bite levels are relative; a pit bull at level 4 is one thing, a toy poodle at the same level 4 is another thing.

I hope you find this of interest, and once again am so sorry for your trauma.

Best wishes
Lindsay
x
- By slee [au] Date 16.01.06 09:23 UTC
After reading through your post i did not get the impression that you or your daughter did anything wrong. Your children wanted to see some dogs like alot of other children a dog does not attack for no reason ever but that type of attack was viscious and i would say seens your daughter did nuthing to provoke the dog the dog sounds viscious and the owner should have known better. My girl never attacks but with strange visitors i always lead her and hold on tight because dogs are unpredictable. Im very sorry for you daughter and i hoe any scars that a left will minimize and she wont be left with any pain but if i was you i would be furious with the owner as they should have known better.

I think for saving her younger sister and probably more fragile younger sister she should get a HUGE present&tell her everyone is proud of her for saving her sister and to keep smilling because it will get better i wish you all the best and hope she fully recovers
- By STARRYEYES Date 16.01.06 10:05 UTC
Have just taken a look at your very beautiful daughter I can understand how proud you must be of her after this traumatic experience.
I agree that this dog should be PTS I personally would never be able to look at her in the same way ever again fear would always be in the back of my mind for myself my family and anyone else she came into contact with.

Sending you and your family my best wishes for the future
- By nuttyhousewife [gb] Date 16.01.06 10:15 UTC
{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}} what a sad story your  little girl is very very brave ,i have 3 children myself and 3 bullmastiffs,i never leave the dogs unsupervised with my kids good luck with the appeal keep us posted dawn xxxx
Topic Dog Boards / Behaviour / my girl savaged by bull mastiff,help need advice !!!! please
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