Blow, I thought Hailey had stumbled upon the definative cure for cancer that scientists have been looking for for years :(

Nope, I couldn't find the word 'carbohydrate' at all in that. :(

Exactly.

If cancer cells have been proven to feed on carbohydrates, it's certain that at least one national government would have banned the production of wheat and all other grains.

>If cancer cells have been proven to feed on carbohydrates

........we'd be seeing Africans dying of cancer or malnutrition, whichever came first

QED, Cheryl.

    If cancer cells have been proven to feed on carbohydrates

........we'd be seeing Africans dying of cancer or malnutrition, whichever came first

Cheryl one has to actually have cancer for this to become an issue,as i'm sure you would be aware had you read all of the posts :)

Your'e not listening jean :) Carbs in the diet are not the sole or highest cause of cancer,however if one has cancer high amounts of grain in the diet is only serving to let those cancer cells flourish.

Gosh i thought this was common knowledge :rolleyes: :(

Obviously not, Hailey. So you're saying that there's evidence that, if you have cancer you shouldn't eat carbohydrates? What if you don't have cancer? Are they safe?

cancer cells feed off of carbs,what are grains - Omitt the carbs/grains and you will literally starve those cancer cells!

What nonsense! In the simplest of terms cancer cells are body cells that have lost the ability to 'turn off' growth. They use the same nutrients as normal cells and don't specifically 'feed on' carbohydrates or grains.

Jas-evidence :) Not that i need it one way or the other,i can find out myself,but it seems to be the 'in' thing to ask about on here :rolleyes:

Evidence is not the 'in' thing. It's the only thing that matters in a discussion like this

Well where is it then Jas? :)

Now who is not interpreting labels correctly?  "Meat and animal derivatives -min 4% chicken, min 4 % rabbit" does not mean that the main ingredient is "meat" - animal flesh.   You could interpret the label to mean 8% protein-based ingredients, but a "derivative" is not what most of us call meat.  Derivatives could be sinew, intestines, undeveloped eggs, skin and so on.

And WHAT exactly would be wrong with that?! You don't seriously think a dog or cat in the wild would get just the perfect cuts of meat do you, without eating the intestines and stomach contents of the animals etc? :)

What Hailey seems incapabe of udnerstanding is that 4% this and 4 % that does NOT mean the food is only 8 % meat. If we used that logic, then if you fed ONLY raw meat off the bone, nothing done to it at all, you'd STILL only feed 25 % meat as the rest would be water. But in reality you ARE feeding 100 % meat. With the canned food, you're not feeding 100 % meat, but you're most CERTAINLY not feeding just 8 % either!

Im so glad you feel denes is a good food, my little kitten wasnt in the best health when I got him and he was being fed on just felix adult food and was so thin :( he is now on PAH dry and denes (supplemented with the odd rodent the other cat brings in for him :rolleyes: ) and is looking really well.

I don't know what it's like now, but many moons ago, Denes complete food was the only food I could feed my chow on without him scratching himself raw and sh*tting like there was no tomorrow. It was very expensive back then, but it saved us a fortune in the long run in vets fees when we finally found it was the right food and we tried EVERYTHING going back then.

I found that the Hi Life pouches are okay for my current dog (the ones that are traditional wet dog food as opposed to the semi-moist stuff that's like rubber and I wouldn't feed to anything). They have no cereals, preservatives or derivatives and a lot of supermarkets do them too which is handy. I use the 'large dog' pouches so don't know what the 'small dog' ones are like. He gets mainly dry food and a little of this on top as a treat occasionally. I'd probably rate this as not as good as naturediet, but better than natures menu pouches as that doesn't agree with my lad. Must admit I haven't checked out the tinned denes recently.

without eating the intestines and stomach contents of the animals etc? :-)

There's absolutely nothing wrong with fresh intestines and stomach contents,but you can not compare those with what is found in those kind of foods! The reason they state 'derivatives' instead of the actual name of the meat is because this gives them the out of changing up the ingredients to whatever is cheapest and most readily available at the time,meaning the food you feed will change from one batch to the next and you have absolutely NO clue what it is your feeding your pets :(

So Godmali tell me,how much meat does denes contain if your'e so proficient in this subject :)

Unless your dog is allergic to something what is wrong with using up gluts of cheap, readily available meat and derivatives in fact how could it be ethical (something you hold dear :)) to not do so as the alternative is to see it simply destroyed and even more animals reared and slaughtered to meet a seperate demand for specific cuts and types of meat just for dogs (or cats)!

I think i'll leave your post just as it is isabel ;)

Yes, it's a struggle to find an ethical reposte isn't it? :)

No not at all Isabel :) I'll let people make up their own minds on that gem without clouding their judgement :)

Other people already have :)

Hang on, this is all news to me.  I thought cancer of say the liver would be the same cancer whether it was in a dog or human?  Have I got that wrong?

Very good point Isabel! :) And like I said, it isn't as if it would be the natural thing anyway for a dog or cat to only get the best bits.

As far as they are concerned they are getting the best bits ;) :)

http://tinyurl.com/766u2

Is it o.k. to feed grains?

Grains are not a natural food for dogs. It is not something they would eat in the wild. Those grains they would have access to  would be in small quantities eaten from the stomachs of prey animals who had (in the right season) eaten some grasses that  had seeded. These grains would also not look like our modern grains - more like wild rice (check it out at the supermarket and  compare to domestic types).

Grains are also full of carbohydrates which can be easily converted to sugars.  Cancer cells feed on sugars and it is believed  that by decreasing the amount of carbohydrate in the diet, we may greatly reduce the risk of cancer (which is a growing  problem among modern dogs).

So, in answer to your question, yes, grains can be fed; however, please keep the following in mind (when feeding grains), taken directly from a Dr. Billinghurst seminar:   grains are not a natural food for dogs; dogs do not, in fact, need carbohydrates; carbohydrates are easily converted into sugars which feed cancer. Remove the carbs and the cancer has less/nothing to feed on; and grains are one of the major causes of allergies in dogs, and can also cause flatulence (gas..PHEW!!!)!.

I would suggest you read more on grains at the Grain Free Pets website.    The page now includes a basic description of yeast infections, why they occur, what are the diet recommendations, why didn't my vet diagnose this problem.... as well as links on candida.

http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/fatpets.htm  Great site that talks about fat pet aswell as grains.

"Carbohydrates from grain are simply not needed. Our pets get their energy from fats and protein. Grains break down into sugar which can grow yeast, produce mucous and may contribute to a multitude of problems including skin allergies, cancer, digestive upsets and skeletal disorders to name just a few."Ed Frawley, owner of Leerrburg Kennels, GSD

Google "cancer starving diets" you will find they are all low in carbs.

http://www.katberard.com/hea_cancerdiet.htm

Information About Sugars in the Diet and Cancer Growth: Cancer cells thrive on sugar. The grains that are low on the glycemic index (don't cause a high rise in blood sugar and the resulting insulin dump to bring it down) are long-cooking oatmeal, quinoa, barley, and millet. There may be others, but if you need a bit of fiber in the diet, those would be good ones to work with. However, the cancer starving diet aims to avoid carbohydrates. If you choose to feed rice, only feed brown rice or wild rice mixes, no white rice.

The main concencus is to stay away from "simple" carbs,and we all know what they are :rolleyes:

The main concensus amongst who, the veterinary profession or single interest web sites?
Kathleen's credentials:-

>I've also been a student of metaphysical and spiritual (not religious) matters since the late 1980's. I am a Reiki Master, an Ordained Minister, have trained in several different energy and emotional release/healing modalities, and have been an empath all my life. I am clairvoyant, clairaudient, clairsentient, and am sensitive to energies and vibrations in people, places and objects.

:)

ROFL Isablel!

could i just ask what ROFL stands for - i might be relly thick but i just  can't work it out

Rolling On Floor Laughing :D

thanks

Sorry Hailey, but this is not exactly peer reviewed literature is it?  People can put whatever they like on a web site without credentials (Ed Frawley, owner of Leerrburg Kennels, GSD :o, who he? :D) or any scientific evidence to support it. This is the sort of this I think people should be reading before using their study skills on what they find on the net.

I noticed you didnt mention Billinghurst,he is a practising vet,his opnion not good enough for you either?I suppose you will find something about him that you can discredit.....

Seeings everyone is asking me to provide evidence on this carbs issue,which i did,i would like too see some evidence from the cynics that cancer cells DO NOT feed off of carbs :)

I have mentioned him, I referred to him as the maverick :)  At least Mr Billinghurst has some qualifications unlike poor Kathleen above :) but he is just a single vet who has a book to sell on the subject but his opinion certainly does not hold a concensus amongst the veterinary profession generally.  Again if you read the link I gave you you will see how any individuals work has to be viewed in proportion to the bulk of evidence.

>Grains are not a natural food for dogs. It is not something they would eat in the wild.

Again, someone making generalisations. :( These people should watch the TV programmes where wild foxes are seen eating spilled grain on farms, and eating ears of wheat.

My dogs, too, actively select to eat ears of wheat, snapping them off the stems and munching them - not something I've taught them. But then, they've never read the books that tell them it's wrong! ;) :D

I don't think what Hailey is saying is all wrong. My brother died in 1990, he had Hodgkin's lymphoma. Throughout all his treatment, he was advised by his oncologist to eat a diet consisting of plenty of protien (white meat and fish) and an abundance of fresh fruit and steamed vegetables and to AVOID carbs as much as possible. Now I'm no expert but there must be some evidence that a low carb diet can help cancer sufferers somewhere, if it's what oncologists recommend. This feeding board is unbelievable, I asked If anyone knew whether or nor denes is a good food?? Why did it have to turn into a slanging match about which foods are cr@p and which aren't Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but there's a difference between voiceing that and being down right rude and insulting. For example, If Goldmali chooses to feed her dogs on Gusto, then so be it, like she says, her dogs do well on it and that's all that should matter. We all love our dogs and wan't what's best for them so yes, advice on here in so helpful but why does it have to turn into a huge debate

I'm so sorry to hear of the loss of your brother.  It may also be true that specific diets help with secondary problems such as ascites or oedema when the amount of protein in the diet will affect the amount of fluid gathering or being extracted from the tissues but I think it is silly to suggest that stopping carbs is advisable across the board as a cancer "treatment" in fact there is an article in the Telegraph today about the dangers of reducing dieters removing whole food groups from their diets.  I agree with you that when people ask general questions about food that they should not be subjected to a lot of opioniated nonsense about good, bad, ethical, non ethical (under their own definitions :rolleyes:) foods.  The testimonals of long lived, healthy dogs regularly encountered on the board show that all foods and diets are suiting someone and their dogs somewhere.

Why did it have to turn into a slanging match about which foods are cr@p and which aren'tconfused Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but there's a difference between voiceing that and being down right rude and insulting. For example, If Goldmali chooses to feed her dogs on Gusto, then so be it, like she says, her dogs do well on it and that's all that should matter.

Thank you luvhandles, you understood what I meant. :) And I'm very sorry about your brother -my brother too died (although not of an illness) so I know it's hard.

Luvhandles my Dad died of skin cancer,21 years ago>My mum used to make seperate meals for him that included NO/very low carbs as this is also what his doctors recommended,even back then.I have never met anyone who knows more about cancer than me old mum,for 3 years her life was consumed with getting my dad better and learning everything she could about what to do and what NOT to do,i showed her this thread this afternoon and she pretty much laughed and cried at the same time at some of the fickle responses put forth.Anyways my dad ended up living 18mths longer than he should have,however he wouldnt have died at all had the 'doctor' picked it up earlier,by the time my dad sought a second opinion it was too late,the cancer had spread!

My point is you lot can laugh and ridicule all you like,i do NOT want my dogs dying of a disease that can be caused by poor nutrition,i would rather prolong their life with good nutrition.This however is up to ME,i will not put my dogs health into anybody elses hands! I will also continue to learn as much as i can everyday,i dont find this a waste of time or boring,it is my passion,which is something some of you just can not grasp.

Jeangenie in answer to your question,yes,IMO small,firm poops are a good sign :) Check out Dr. Poo in Dogs today he often adds pics of unhealthy and healthy poops :)

One last thing,it is not unusual for younger dogs to look fine on whatever one chooses to feed them,but there is zero doubt in my mind that the low end foods(i wont name them again) are doing some kind of damage internally,particularly to the kidney's who have to work double time to flush out the toxins,eg preservatives,colouring etc.,and the pancreas who has to help digest the 'foreign' matter. I have heard of 5-6 year old dogs who have died,but their kidney's,liver have been far older than they should have been.Poor feeding will come out somewhere in the end.It's akin to running your car on cheapo oil,it will still run but not at 100% capacity,and the engine wont run as long as the next car who uses premium oil :)

Luvhandles i think if they have the right to say certain foods are super duper,i have the right to disagree :)

Thank you luvhandles, you understood what I meant.

Then why are you involved in the 'slanging matches' Debate is a better word i woudl have thought :)

There are actually quite a few sites out there but research on this is really just beginning.. None are specific to dogs and some address particular cancers, but, nonetheless, study the effect of carbs with cancer.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8990931&dopt=Abstract

http://medicalcenter.osu.edu/patientcare/hospitalsandservices/press/?ID=1746&i=0&SIDS=16

http://libaware.economads.com/carbcancer.php

http://www.uga.edu/columns/010924/news6.html

http://www.apjohncancerinstitute.org/dietician_nutritionist.htm

This is it tho guys! I should have been in bed hours ago,searching for stuff that none of you want to believe or even have an interest in :rolleyes:

>Jeangenie in answer to your question,yes,IMO small,firm poops are a good sign

Thank you. :) I was sure I hadn't misunderstood all the past references to this. I'll buy whatever the dogs eat, enjoy, have bags of energy and shiny coats, and has this result. :)

>one has to actually have cancer for this to become an issue,

That's much more believable IMO than the suggestion that eating carbohydrates causes cancer. Thank you for clearing that up. :)