Wonder if anyone can help me with a problem one of my puppy buyers (experienced breeders and exhibitors in the USA) are having.

All physical reasons have been ruled out for the behaviour, and she is very healthy.

As you may be aware crate training for housetrainign is pretty universal in the US and they use crates to gradually get a pup to go longer and longer dependant on age, the throry being they can go half hour per month of age.

This bitch pup would wet in her crate and then lick up her pee, so was always dry but the smell gave her actions away. They had her urine tested and put a false bottom in the crate reducing the height so shw couldn't squat, and at ssame tiem took ehr out to toilet much more often.

They more or less had it cracked, but she was still peing in the crate from tiem to time.

As they ahve kennel facilities they decided to kennel her, with her crate as a bed.  They have found that she sleeps on kennel floor and goes into crate to pee.  so they started shutting her in the crate and taking her out in the middle of the night to have a chance to pee, and she is peeing her crate and dirtied it once.

the reason they are persisting in using the crate is that she will need to travel in one and sleep in it when they are away at shows staying in hotels. 

Her first show is at the end of February, and she will be 6 months old on the 15th January.

The advice I gave was this:

"My initial reaction would be to take away the bone of contention (the crate) for now, as she is in the kennel anyway.  That should put her in a quandary, as without it she will have to alter her toileting behaviour.  It seems to be a bad association she has made, lord only knows why?

It is rather like my friend with an opposite problem with a male, who would pee in the house, so we crated him for about two weeks to break the cycle.

What type of crate is it?  Would she pee in any bed type?  Try a Cardboard box for one night.  If it is only one type of crate then I would take away the crate until a week before you are due to travel, and introduce a totally different type like the Varikennel or soft crate assuming she isn't a bad chewer? (but not shut her in it, just let her have it as a bed, and have her able to access her chosen toilet area).  As for Hotel practicality, if the bathroom is tiled, might be better to shut her in there rather than in a
crate when you aren't in the room, if you haven't found a different kind of crate equals no peeing.

I have occasionally found with baby pup still in the litter that some little beggars have got it back to front and go back into the crate to pee on the vet bed (which lets the pee through t0 paper underneath), and prefer to keep play area clean, but by 6 weeks with access to outside run they have always had clean beds (paper under the polyester pads dry)."

What so you lot think.

Please do not turn this into a crate debate, as for practical and safety reasons as a show dog they need to use crates.

I have never used crates as a toilet trainign aid.  Mienhave had access to an Open crate all their lives from puppy days,a dn once they start going to shows they get the dorr shut on ti in my presence while I pop to the loo etc, and as periods in it are short have no problem when eventually they are used overnight if away etc.

Hi Brainless, (feels a bit rude typing that :-) )

Like you have said, it sounds like she is not associating the crate with her bed or has a bad association with it in some way.  Do you know if they introduced the crate slowly to begin with and for what length of periods they were leaving her in there for?  Also do you know how they are reacting to her once she has had an accident in the crate, if she is being told off in there, then it's possible that that is causing a negative association? I think the false bottom on the crate meaning that she wouldn't be able to squat would only contribute to making the crate an uncomfortable place to be!

If she is only going over night and when crated then I think your suggestion would be the way to go - remove the crate for a period of time, giving her a new soft bed that she can lie on, or if she already has something that she likes to lie on then reintroduce a different kind of crate and palce her by then familiar soft bed in the crate so she can make the bed association with the crate.

I'm sure they'll get it sorted she's still only a babe after all.

Karen

Hi Brainless

Just one thing to ask - what are they cleaning the crate with?  If they are cleaning it with bleach or with certain disinfectants that contain ammonia, the dog will still be able to smell the wee afterwards and will continue to think of the crate as a toilet place.  If they clean it with (clothes) washing liquid, it will digest the enzymes in the wee and stop it smelling like a toilet.  In the UK we have both biological and non-biological washing liquid for clothes, but in the US I think they just have biological.  (Which is what they should use anyway - so any clothes washing liquid should work, is what I'm saying.)

Also, how big is the crate?  Is it small enough that she can't toilet in one part of it and sleep in another part of it?

Secondly, I agree that she now has an association that the crate is her toilet place.  The first thing to try would be to anticipate the times when she wants to wee and take her out more often, and to make sure they are rewarding with a food treat when she goes outside.  Once she learns that she gets a food treat outside but nothing inside or in the crate, then she will start to want to hold on so she can go outside and get her food treat.

Third, if none of that is working, I would suggest they try using a different kind of crate.  If they are using a wire crate, can they use an airline crate for now?  If they are using an airline crate, can they use a wire one?  Make sure the crate is small enough to make it unpleasant for her to wee in there.  Give her different bedding, put the crate in a different place in the house - try to make as much about the crating experience "different" as possible, and then start at the beginning with taking her out often and giving a food reward.

If that still doesn't work, I think they're going to have to abandon the idea of the crate for now.  That doesn't mean they won't be able to use one in future at shows, because you can crate train an adult dog, but it will help break her of the habit.  When the habit is completely absolutely broken and she NEVER wees inside, they can then go back to the crating.

I'd have advised much the same as you, but I'd have been a bit horrified at the idea of a crate so artificailly constricted that she couldn't squat to pee. If she were mine she'd also be in out of the kennel in an easily cleaned area in the house where she could be taken out frequently and where signs that she needs to go can be picked up on immediatially. Once she is clean without the crate then I'd re-introduce a nice big one of a different kind.

The owners seem to hav ethe American idea of toilet training using a crate to a shedule.  The theory is that a pup can be left crated for half an hour per month of life before needing to be taken out.  This is how they have always managed pups when not able to supervise.  they would of course ahve her out to play and train and socialise, but put her in the crate to rest for the scheduled length of time, but primarily at night.

I think to start with this semed to be working in the way they had always done it, but it was then they realised she was sometimes peeing but cleaning up the evidence.

She is also a very determined character who likes to be centre of attention and has realised peeing got her attention, (they were terified she might have a kidney problem, but all tests are normal)and has been known to pee almost as soon as put in the crate if she happened not to want to be in it.

She does get plenty of freedom as they have several fenced excersise areas with different substrate so that they can have grass in good weather and gravel/slabs when it is wet. 

They have purpose built kennels and the dogs come into the house through the day, and housetraining when watched is going well.  They do restrict her play with their adults (all male) more than I would frankly as they are worried they might be too much for her (she is tough as old boots) :D

I suspect she doesn't like the crate and also having soiled it continues to out of habit.  She can throw quite the temper tantrum if she is left out of things such as when they had dinner guests over christmas, but if nothing interesting is happening is quite happy with the kennel/household routine, and no problem being apart from them for periods of time, though likes nothing better than to snuggle on their bed before real bedtime.

They only have about five weeks until the shows she is going to which is travelling and staying away over 3 days.

They are very experienced owners/breeders, but this one has not followed the rules :D

If only dogs read the books. :) As house-training outside the crate is going well it does sound as if you are right and she has an issue with the crate - maybe attention seeking, maybe dislike, maybe habit and probably a mixture of all of the above. Given the extra information my advice would be the same as yours. Ideally I'd give up on the crate completely for a period and then re-introduce a different type, but they are working on a tight time schedule. Would it be possible for them to use something like a vari-kennel, closing it for periods during the day when she is observed, but leaving it open at night? The only other thought that occurs is the point you make about vetbed and pups sometimes getting the idea backwards. Could it be that she has decided that vetbed is the 'right' thing to use and might it be worth trying with a different type of bedding? (I know that nothing else is so satisfactory).

They do restrict her play with their adults (all male) more than I would frankly as they are worried they might be too much for her (she is tough as old boots)

I always find this a very fraught subject. Ideally I'd like younsters to have pretty free access to play with the adults but I knew one 6 month hound who ended up with a dreadfully shattered hock after an apparently minor and slow speed collision with an adult. Many of my puppy people already have adults and I never quite know what to advise them. Its one reason that I prefer to keep two puppies from a litter myself. (Not the done thing I realise but it does usually seem to work out in my breed and I know one very experienced US breeder who will not run on a singleton.)

Best of luck to your pup and your friends. Do please let us know how they get on and what they do in the end.

Oh the false bottom was to make her alert them that she neded to go at night, as she was in the bedroom, but not asking to be out to be but peeing, and of course making herself wet and smelly.

I think all the advice given so far is really good including yours Brainless.

My immediate suspicion is that she is being overcrated and being a strong character, feels upset, stressed and left out. Are they actually training the crate as a fun, great, really good place to be?

Is it in the living room or does she see it as "banishment" do you think?

If they have DAP in the USA, I'd maybe suggest that, recommending reading instructions thoroughly.

I also wonder if she has got to really like the substrate of what is in her crate - vetbed or whatever - and associates it with weeing indoors...

I wonder too why she started licking her wee up - did it make her feel wet and uncomfy or is there some other reason? (not sure what, just putting out a few thoughts which may help..?)

Hope it gets sorted! :)

Good that they can keep in touch with you and ask you about it.

Lindsay
x

Hi again Brainless,

"I think to start with this semed to be working in the way they had always done it, but it was then they realised she was sometimes peeing but cleaning up the evidence".

Dogs often do this if they are regularly told off for toileting as they associate the being told off with the wee or poo, so quite logically try and get rid off the thing that causes the telling off.

"She is also a very determined character who likes to be centre of attention and has realised peeing got her attention, (they were terified she might have a kidney problem, but all tests are normal)and has been known to pee almost as soon as put in the crate if she happened not to want to be in it".

She shouldn't be realising that weeing is getting her attention unless it is lavish praise and or treat for doing it in the right place, if she does go inside it should be ignored and cleaned up as Onetwothree suggests.  If she is caught in the act then a firm (but not shouting) "no" or "ah ah" and immediately taking her to a correct place and lots of praise when she finishes.  Also she won't be weeing as soon as she's put in the crate out of a strop or because she's cross at being put in there.  She may be feeling worried or unsure when in there and in turn loses control of her bladder because of this.

If she is doing well when being watched, then maybe it is just a case of going back to the basics and taking her out more regularly for a while at the same time as trying to make different associations with the crate to make her feel more comfortable about it.

Karen

I think part of the problem is that crates are so much a part of the US dog culture that managing a pup without one seems so alien and almost an impossible concept to people out there.

They already realise that just being allowed to be loose with them she is happy to just settle by their side and doesn't need constant containment, just discreet watchfulness.

I suppose if you have always done things a certain way it can be most frustrating and disconcerting for them to be so challenged by this wee madam.

I think like you said, id ditch the crate for now, and possibly that particular style of crate for good.

The licking up the pee does sound VERY odd, she is cleaning up the evidence because either she has sussed she doesnt like lying in it OR she is worried about the consequences of being found wet.

Either way thats not a good sign so i would worry she has been over crated and left to lie in it, OR shouted at very badly for being found wet.

The fact she has learned to urinate in her crate also suggests she has been over crated.

I would get rid of the crate for the time being, double up on the rewarding for peeing outside and reintroduce a different style of crate, preferably placed in a different part of the house, to break ALL association with the crate an dpeeing.

Em