Please can someone help me. I have a nine month old Briard puppy who is becoming more and more aggressive when I go into the garden (especially if I am hanging washing out). I think she is playing as it started with her first of all bringing me a toy and trying to force me to play with her. She grabs me around the legs in a rugby tackle (she is already as big as a German Shepherd) which she has always done, but it has got to the stage where she won't let me walk. So I took the toys away and now it has escalated into her jumping up and biting me quite hard, and barking. This happens almost every time I go into the garden now.

I have shut her in the house, but she can open the door if she tries long enough, barking and scratching and I also know that I must find a way of dealing with the behaviour. I have tried putting her lead on but she jumps around barking. I realise it may be a dominance thing, but the rest of the time she is lovely.

I do not usually smack her, but must admit I have twice now, and did see a slight improvement, but I don't know if this is the correct way to go. I have read several times never smack your dog and do not want to do anything that might make her even more aggressive.

Short of tying her up of crating her before I go in the garden each time, I do not know what to do (maybe this is the only answer).

Any advice will be gratefully received.

Thanks

Fiona and Saffy

Well I know before I even start to say this, that some people will disagree & start on at me, but my 6 month old pup is also at that boisterous teething stage, and as soon as I venture outside he has his teeth in my sleeve, jumper, hand etc. There is nothing nasty about it in his case, just over exuberant normal puppy behaviour! HOWEVER, being a giant breed, such behaviour needs controlling, so I say no......then, if there is no reaction its a shart smack on the nose & "no" again. This always works. With my deerhound pup last year, I had to be firmer, and it took a real hard crack of the hunting whip to make her realise "no" means NO. This obviously doesn't hurt her but sure makes 'em jump! Infact all my hounds' excercise is done with a hunting whip, no leads....they all have immense respect for it & I only have to reach for it & I get instant discipline!

Well, I had a great grandma who took a 6ft bullwhip after her grown sons when they annoyed her to her last nerve. The bigger the lug, the more drastic the action? Sam, you have my complete respect :D :D :D

..........and mine Sam, obedience in the giants IS essential!!!

....... ditto!

Thanks for your advice. It seems I must be much firmer with her. No does not work on her, and if I hold her collar, which I have started keeping on her lately, she just tries to bite me or lays down and uses her paws to help her wriggle to bite my arm. I do think she is playing, but I am worried that it will get out of hand - I am already badly marked and bruised on both arms (she is quite scary when doing this and barking). I do not have a whip or the like so would you think smacking her on the bum with my hand quite hard is OK? or should I look for some other way?

Thanks again

Fiona and Jaws

Rolled up newspaper across the nose might work. I usually don't advocate it, but the larger the dog, esp. at 9 months, the larger the "tap" needs to be just to get the needed notice.
It would save your own body from the abuse that it's getting if you manage to figure out an inanimate object to use. --rolled damp towel, whistle blast, head harness, etc... Be creative with whatever you think would work on a large out of control puppy to get the unpleasant message that "no" means "no."
good luck

Hi Fiona,

One of my dogs behaved like this when he came to live with us at twelve months old - he's a rehome. I don't think he knew the right way to play, had lived indoors and then been turfed out to amuse himself, so anyone in the garden with him was a bonus. We had to get it sorted out as the children were scared to go out in the garden if he was there. Anyway, after we'd had him about 3 weeks, my husband took the dog out, and sorted out the problem. He took him on a long lead, and played with him. He used the lead to correct the behaviour, sort of tugging it when he jumped up, and got too enthusiastic. I have to say, one short sharp lesson and he didn't do it again.
Monty also had a habit of tearing round the house at top speed, up and down the stairs. Not very safe really, so one day he happened to be flying downstairs when my husband was at the bottom. Talk about an opportunity - he grabbed the hurtling hound and shouted 'don't do that' and no, he's never done it since.
This post sounds as though my husband is the only one to tell the dogs off, he just happened to be in the right place at the right time on these occasions.
sas

I am sorry but just the vision of your husband intercepting your flying dog made me laugh till I cried

I would try the tried and tested water spray in the face and eyes approach. Get a bottle with a nozzle that can be adjusted to emit a sharp strong jet of water.

Timing is important, as well as never being amused. Say no sternly and if not instantly obeued squirt in the face once, or even several times, until it gives her pause. Then praise! (as she should have paused in her tracks!)

The beauty of this is there is no opportunity for her to make physical contact to get her own way. As you have found if you try physical reprimand, she actually gets what she wants, what she sees as a game.

Also try to give her quiet attention and praise when she is lying down quietly, as she may see these tactics as the only way of getting your attention. It is easy to do nothing and give no feed back when they are good!

Thanks again everyone, I will let you know how I get on.

Fiona and Saffy

He he he, your Briard sounds just ssoooo much like my BSd when she was a youngster; yes she grabbed around the legs, and also had mad 5 minutes but these would also be grabbing, nipping and yes, as you have said, basically trying to play.

A big one like a Briard will hurt too - I had a few bruises before we were able to stop our girl :).

My bitch started grabbing round one leg, hooking with her paw, and pressing a soft toy against our legs at the age of 7 weeks. Of course it was very sweet and against my own better judgement, used to laugh and she immediatley cottoned on that this was fun!!! So I take a lot of the blame for her behaviour at the time!!

It is basically play, but of course unacceptable. There is also a possibility she may transfer this behaviour to other people, outside, so if this happens please feel free to mail me privateley and I will be glad to help, as I had to stop my BSD from this. I used only motivational and reward based techniques for this, and the method is quite different from what i did in the house and garden.

I think with a dog with a quick reaction, one has to be careful, purely because some punishments may be seen as attention from you, or a game, albeit a rough one, and the dog may get even more worked up.

At home, we used a fav. toy to distract her, (it does work but you have to be patient to ensure she understands how to focus on it) and also just totally standing still when she grabbed us. like a tree - no eye contact, no voice. Nothing.She eventually got bored eacch time and walked off, then was rewarded calmly, verbally or with a gentle game. YOu will find that different things work for different dogs, and also that it may take a little time ;).

Our bitch does still have mad times in the garden, but she will now re-direct herself to her toys. She has learnt to control herself, which is what i wanted to teach her. This sort of self control helps further along the line too, when training and doing other stuff. I love the way she makes her choice now :)

At the end of the day, dogs only do stuff that is rewarding to them. Make it non-rewarding and they stop :)

Good luck
Lindsay

I just wanted to add, not in reply to any particular post as such, that i personally never advocate any kind of smacking on the nose or muzzle.......mainly because as most of the posters here know, i only use motivational methods, but also because our family dog, a LabxWhippet, was punished like this.

Her original owner would hit her on the muzzle for not staying, and she eventually died of cancer of the nose.

I believe, as with my mum's cancer, that the cells beneath the skin were damaged and when the dog gets older, and the immune system is not as good, the cells change and the cancer gets a grip :(

Somebody else, I think it was maybe John, mentioned too that the ssensitive Jacobson's Organ is in the muzzle area and could be damaged.

No offence meant to anybody, but I always feel i have to point out what happened to our dog :)

Lindsay

Hi Fiona It is very important you sort this out. It reminds me of my own bullmastiff dog whe he was 11 months . He had this thing of pulling me to ground every time I turned my back on him [he was instinctively doing what he was bred to do take down and hold a poacher] Well funny as it was to others it was not funny to me . I was not frightened of him , he made no attempt to bite but it was getting stressful for me I mean rain hail or snow every time I went out I hit the deck :( I was not strong enough to make an impression on him no matter how hard I walloped him . He had my measure,So called my friend a trainer .He hid while I went out . and then dragged him off roughly and shook him and told him very firmly no no no. Left it for 20 mins and I went out and he did it again , he got a hard wallop this time and was shook harder and really told off put in run and given another wallop on the way in . I went out and left him out of run 20 mins later again . and walked in front of him tensing waiting to be pulled down again , nothing he just ran in front and that was the last time he ever did it. I was able then to enjoy my dog . I keep saying it dogs are supposed to be a pleasure and if you get one that wants to be the boss and carries on like that , wheres the pleasure .? I will never let something get to that stage again I thought he would grow out of it and did not chastise him in time . I mean I could have broken an arm or leg . So unless your prepared to do all that is necessary with the giants then you should not have them its too dangerous.

Best wishes Mari

Alexander,

Your Briard is in charge of you. Dogs in charge of the Owner are not happy or relaxed. Owners unfortunately treat them with the same 'reasoning' as people - but dogs are totally different!

At this stage with your Briard, do not WAIT until the unwanted behaviour actually occurs, go back a step, to the point where you KNOW she will start to 'play up', it might for instance be just as you open the back door to the garden, so just before you open the door and she is there by your side give her a 'back-hander' across the muzzle, do not look at her or say anything, just a good wallop then continue into the garden with what you were doing. (Do not mince about either, the wallop should hurt her, your making a point with her, the behaviour must stop, and you as the 'top dog' will make her! If you do not have an impact on her then she will know 'when push comes to shove' - you are weak)!

The clever part is you have 'corrected her' while she is just THINKING of being obnoxious - she will be in awe of you!

You equally do not bother to look at her or say anything, because you FEEL in 'total control'. Dogs not only respond to what you say and do but how you FEEL! So FEEL strong, walk to that back door with a purpose, tell YOURSELF you will no longer tolerate such disrespectful bad manners from her, and give that clout like you mean it.

Denise.

Lots of different thoughts on this one, Fiona!!

I am trying very hard to control mu rising blood pressure after reading a post about whacking dogs on their muzzles......please don't do this, whatever you do, because your dog will just see you as unpredictable :( apart from possible later health problems.

It is very easy to "train" respect in this way, but imho shows a method of bullying and the perpretrator ends up with a well behaved brown noser....I like a bit of spirit, not a dog who is too scared to put a foot wrong in case it get a whack across the muzzle for (to the dog at the time) apparentlu no reason.

Please don't ever believe people who tell you you cannot get respect without this sort of "training". WE all differ, as may be seen from the above posts, but whacking a dog across the muzzle as described is something i personally find sickening.

Sorry to be blunt, i have tried to be polite as i can :)

lindsay

ps Fiona your idea of popping the Briard in the crate or whatever whilst you are briefly in the garden may well help a lot, because theless chance the dog gets to leap at you, the better will be. Could you use this as a form of "management" when you are in a hurry maybe..?

If you really want to have a good/better relationship with your dog, why not channel the energy, instead of trying to suppress it! :-)
The dog is not trying to dominate you, she is obviously looking for guidance and training. It is up to you to show her what you want from her, instead of punishing what you dont want. By now she has aquired a "learned behaviour" re the garden. It will almost be like a habit that she has started. So, give her something to do when you hang the washing out. Use a stuffed kong and throw it in the garden prior to you going out there. Do some training in the garden. Change the circumstances !!! Exhuberance in a dog shouldnt be punished. It should be redirected.
Unfortunately, physical punishment seems to be the first resort for some people when things go wrong. Sadly, punishment sometimes appears to work well and quickly, thereby encouraging owners to apply it more often. In reality the symptoms of the problem are being treated and NOT the root cause.
Dogs need direction otherwise how do they know which way to go?? A "smack in the mouth" only teaches them to be wary of you. Fine if you like that sort of relationship....I guess

Wiz

Hi Wizard. Agree to a degree!! I would not advocate a "smack in the mouth" for any dog or child, but sometimes physical punishment is neccessary, ( imo) Have you tried telling a huge excited over exuberant giant breed of dog a polite ...NO? Not the best means of controlling a teenage lout. I feel the same about kids( sorry to anyone who dosnt) I would NEVER advocate smacking a child around the head, but honestly feel a slap on the wrist or the bum, never did anyone any harm, and I rear my giant breed the same way.

Have noted how your dogs cower away from you Phil, and what a poor relationship you have with them :-). Just look at that poor wee Daisy sucking her blankie in absolute terror....:D

Well Im sorry if anyone thinks im a dog beater because im not . I never have to be cross with mine and if they are disobedient I threaten them with the water hose. I am strictly stating that when a dog is out of control and you find after you have tried the wheedling and it does not work then there is nothing wrong with a swipe on the bum with something , or a shaking . For gods sake it is for the safety of the dog as well . I for one do not want my giants out of my control . have myself sued or worse hurt someone else.
All dogs do not respond to coaxing . even little ones . Some dogs are more determined than others . I have not had a lot of bother over the yrs as most dogs are naturally good . but I stand by what I posted . It is my responsibility to the dog to see he /her is in no danger of being P.T.S. because I would not sort bad behaviour in the beginning.
John I agree the hand should not be used which is why I said a rolled up newspaper, so that the dog does not fear the hand,
Surprising how effective it is when the giants are puppies , but if the behaviour is not stopped im afraid nothing will be effective to stop them once they have grown.
I wonder out of interest how others would have dealt with alec when he was using me for rugby practise , I was 1/2 stone lighter than him at the time . I can assure you he was not interested in me trying to talk it out . his main aim was to keep me down. but if he started pulling my grandchildren down he could have seriously injured them and no way was that going to happen . Mari

You should have distracted him, Marie! :D
What I don't understand is if you just distract a dog from doing what you don't want it to do, how does the dog know that you don't want it to do it in the future?
It reminds me of Dr Spock! Remember the man who told us that we should never tell out children what to do and allow them "free expression" to grow in their own individual way? Mmmm. Some did as this "expert" told us and grew a generation of unrulely children who then had to be taught respect as teenagers. I'm grateful that I stuck to the old tried and tested methods and grew a daughter to be proud of!
I'm no dog beater either but believe that there is a time and a place for everything. I am happy to "distract" for isolated minor things, but prefer to leave my dogs (and children) with no confusion about what is acceptable behaviour if it is a serious and important issue like decking an adult/child or chasing livestock. I think we must be part of the old school Marie, although always open minded to new ideas, I can't imagine thinking "That large dog is about to deck that child. I must get the timing right and throw my can of noisy pebbles, NOW!"

" I must get the timing right and throw that can of noisy pebbles now"
Val, its 6.41 in the morning, you have justed made me roflol, anyone who can make me do that at this flipping hour, should be on the stage!!! ;) (In case you are wondering why I am onthe pc this time of the morning, pups wanted a wee)

:D lol, sharon, my poor little daisy is so terrified of me, thats why she eats those awful dinners that I give her, in case I beat her black and blue!!!! You know what I mean, and dont you dare tell :) xxx

PMSL - boy do I have a hold over you now Phil :D ;-).

Just a short post as a thought for you.

Question:- If you smack your dog, and your dog sees you do it, what have you taught your dog?

Answer:- Hands hurt so next time grab it before it can hurt!

John

Hi John, It also teches the giants..."I may be smaller/not as strong as you, but I am THE BOSS." I have truly, hand on heart, never thumped five bells out of any dog or child, but I have smacked (not on the nose) when reasoning,patience and channeling energy has failed. A disobedient, small/medium dog, can , if all else fails,be picked up, not so with a giant. I love my dogs to bits, all of them, but for my own peace of mind, and for the safety of all small furrys wether dogs or not,need to know that my dogs are under control. If I have to resort to a smack from time to time, thenso be it. Not having an arguement with you, just my opinion :)

Hi Phillipa
The true "boss" is the one with mental superiority. Not the one who uses his hands. ;)

< Have you tried telling a huge excited over exhuberant breed of dog a polite no.>

No I havent. I would think that was pointless. :D As a dog trainer I see all sorts, big and small. I never have to or indeed want to smack the dogs. What you are describing is a handler problem not a dog problem. If the dog is trained correctly in the first place surely control will be achieved through the training. I do not agree that sometimes punishment is necessary. I think people resort to punishment when they dont know what else to do. Or because they refuse to acknowledge progression within the dog training industry and stick with old methods.
I am sure the odd smack wont do a dog any lasting harm (unless it is shy/nervous/fearful) but then in my opinion it wont do them any good either.

I dont doubt for a minute that you love your dogs Phillipa :D

Wiz

Ooooo wizard, so , according to you, because I occasionally smack my dogs I am "mentally inferior"---probably. I have a handler problem----quite likely. Also I " dont know what else to do"----probably dont! lol
However, my method has worked well on MY dogs for the last 21 years, Ive never had a hand shy, frightened or nervous wolfhound. Horses for courses I suppose. I think on this topic we will just have to agree to disagree. :)

lacks mental superiority - tick
handler problem - tick
doesn't know what to do - tick
multiple giant/very large dogs, all of them well behaved, obviously happy and overtly affectionate to owner - tick

:D :D :D

PS - one wee blankie sucker with very odd diet - TICK

:D Hey Sharon, 5/5, ooo thank you. Never got such high marks before!!!
Teachers always used to say, could do better, must concentrate.
By the way, found Kloud on top of the freezer this morning, dont ask!!
One little blankie sucking longdog, says "Hi, Auntie Sharon"
ps....MAY have some very good news today, fingers crossed pleased.

Am only guessing at what the good news might be, but everything is crossed :-)

Auntie sends kisses & chicken to the blankie sucking longdog.

John, doesn't that imply an 'anthropomorphic' sort of reasoning that we have no real proof dogs use?

John, Lindsay, Wizard, I have every respect for people who get instant obedience from large, powerful and wilful dogs without ever smacking them but I can't though I've had them a while. Fiona's dog is 9 months old, big and clearly out of control. She has bruises on her arms. Something has to be done now and that something has to work fast or someone is going to get hurt. I'm no dog beater, I know Phil isn't, and doubt that Sam, Mari, Sara or Denise are either but a well timed wallop (not dog beating) works, while - trying to be polite about this - unless in exceptional hands, I can't find much proof that completely motivational/distraction/behaviour modification/behaviourist methods are as reliable.

Sorry to get passionate about this, but imho sometimes too much misplaced kindness can kill dogs and get people hurt.

All,
A dog is a pack animal, if another lower ranking indivial bites the Alpha pack leader, they will in return receive a physical reminder of who is in charge, I do beleive that some times it is necessary to be physical......I have, Bodie my GSP was a strong willed defiant little B***er ,some times our training days were just a battle of wills,she would see how far she good push me ,the final straw came when she would nip at me while I was trying to put her back on the spot before she decided to work off instead of sitting and staying.....I was told by our Trainer, if she nips, hold her both sides of her neck put her on her back and tell her strongly who was in charge If you saw me doing that over the park what would you think? it needed doing and it worked.
It will always be a hot subject, But at the end of the day a smack on the nose is nothing compared to the vile dog cruelty and dog beating you read about in the press.

Hi Fiona

If she was mine I would put her on the lead before I opened the door and enter the garden under control. She sits and waits whilst you go through the door, if this means shutting it in her face 10 or 15 times till she gets the message to wait then so be it, then walk around the garden on the lead, praise all the time she is being good, make her stop and sit if she is being a pain, and take her back indoors.

A little later do it again this time do some training on the lead (sits, downs stays etc) then go back without her having run free

A little later do it again and if she is behaving then play with her (on the lead so you have control). If she is not used to this then it will take time but never give into her, think to yourself "I have the power of life and death over you and you will do as I say NOW!" Don't get in a temper just be very firm.

The idea behind this is that the garden is not a place solely for out of control play. Practice your sit and/or down stays so that the moment she starts to nip or jump at you, you can put her into a sit or down. Be consistent and persistent

Another method of course is to set it up so you know when she will bite or nip you, turn around fast whilst shouting NO and briefly pin her to the floor, if she tries to bite your hand then don't let her, you are in control, she can get up when she submits to you. If you are not confident and fast then DO NOT use this method as the timing HAS to be perfect, and your voice loud so that you shock her, if she has time to dance out of the way again they you have lost. If you do use this method you may have to flatten her a couple of times but could well find she submissively licks you afterwards if you have been successful. Follow it up with a training session. Or if you have a friend who is used to training dogs then get them involved.

Pinning dogs to the floor is not my first choice of training methods as it can be dangerous if the dog is not one that will tolerate this type of handling and much depends on the relationship between dog and handler, but I have and will use it to prevent myself being nipped by irritating youngsters.

Christine

Im with Mari Philippa and sharon on this one my dogs have had some smacks.

My Daughter also will get a smack bum if she pushes things to far.

Well, i was so pleased to see a discussion going about this :) and of course I agree with Wizard!! i do think she said a lot of very sensible things, but one i would like to remark on is the fact that yes, many owners don't know what else to do, so they resort to punishment because in their experience it does work, a dog is getting OTT and what else is there to do? As responsible dog owners, it is imperative to get a big dog especially under control.....

As teenager i used the choke chain, jerked dogs, and shouted. I hated it, but had read/heard/seen so much about dog training which meant that you had to do this.

As I grew older, I was determined to find other ways, because I hated what i was doing. I walked a young GSd for a lady who always pulled and drove me mad. i was always jerking him. NOw i look back and realise he was a young boy full of life, who lived with an old lady and all the exercise he got was from me, round the roads. Of course he pulled, the best tactics in the world wouldn't have helped 100 per cent, because he had a huge under- exercise problem. Looking back the old lady kept him as a bit of a deterrent really. She loved him, but was no good home. Poor Kym :(

It took me my own experiments with all sorts of dogs, (including working with them), and of course my fantastic BSd's to teach me that imho there is NEVER a need for punishment ... to define that word, i mean physical smacking, yelling lots, shaking, pushing etc. etc.

As i say, this is my opinion and not all will agree, (although i am pleased to see several do :) ),but I have promised to myself that all my life i will go on learning about dog behaviour, and how to teach and train with motivational methods which I love. Training is a pleasure for me and my dogs. I love it, I get so much out of it. I can't tell you how passionate i am about it, how much I am learning....I have a crazy, excitable little Terv who is a real cracker and a challenge, but the day I use physical smacks or jerks to get what i want is the day i give it all up. There is always another way - not so easy, less quick, maybe more hard work.....but it is the kindest.Having said that, I have never trained the basics so quickly as with the clicker :) And i having recently started Working Trials and already used the clicker to great advantage in teaching the Sendaway I am very excited about the future :) and my belief in motivational training.

It is possible to train kindly and to not get results, but I always have found this is due to inexperience, misjudgment, or wrong use of rewards, etc. I am still learning myself and readily admit this, and I still make mistakes.

I wonder if i may use Mari's posting on her bullmastiff as an example? Hope you don't mind, Mari :) I'm not getting at you, but it is a good one to use as an example so please don't take offence :) As i sau I am still learning myself, but if I had been the trainer, would have considered the use of a Masterplus to stop dog, and then, when the dog had 4 feet on the ground, would have clicked and treated,(having previously conditioned the animal, thus the dog would have had a nasty surprsise when leaping on to his "victim" (!) but then also shown what to do when he had got off. Obviously there is more to it, but as i said this is just a thought i am tossing around to show that there are indeed alternatives :)

Thus no need for physical shaking, jerks, shouts etc. (I am not saying I am right and Mari's trainer was wrong - well I suppose i am really as my belief is not to physically punish, flesh on flesh - but as dog owner if I was offered the one or the other, I would use the latter suggestion).

Re smacking kids, i believe in discipline but not smacking. OK I know some feel a slap is OK, fair enough, but did anyone see the recent programme about smacking kids? The worst behaved kids were the ones who were constanlty slapped and not shown positively what was required of them. Worse, they also smacked adults back, and their llittle brothers and sisters :( It was distressing to watch.

With the family who slapped a lot, and had quite wild kids, there was a huge improvement when they stopped smacking and started to use a reward system of Stars etc instead. It actually brought a tear to my eye, no kidding :) Those kids were great.

I don't feel the odd slap here or there matters too much, but why do it anyway - to dogs or kids - when there is always another way.

JMO as always!!! :) ;) :D

Lindsay

HI Craig

If i remember correctly and it was you who was keen to find out about dog behaviour :), and you do go ahead and complete some of the suggested courses, I can guarantee that in a few year's time, you will see all the training stuff with your Bodie in a quite different light :)

I too have a strong willed little bitch, who is highly reactive with very strong instincts. She has pushed me a few times, but I have never needed to be physical :) and I never will. Training days can sometimes be very difficult, (and we all have days like this, me included!) but once we learn more about, say, why dogs so often seem to be disobeying when they are in fact confused by our commands because we have not generalised them, once we understand a little about the weighting of the nerve neurones, once we start to understand about latent learning, suddenly so much becomes clear!!!

We owe it to our dogs to learn and understand as much about them as we can. We have to understand how to bridge that communication barrier :)

Lindsay

Lots of opinion on this topic, that's for sure. But regardless of what those of us think, it's the lone individual who has to deal with the problem and stop it before it gets out of hand.

My mom had to deal with a 18 hand proudcut quarter horse (yes, very oversized) who had rarely had the same owner longer than 3-4 months. She did things to gain control of his situation that she had always sworn never to do. But 140lbs vs. 1400lbs and just saying no, wouldn't work. :D Using a jockey crop to smack his mouth away from biting her was the only way she could get him to pay attention. He never became head shy, that's how tough and dopey he was. She rode him for 8 years and after the first 6 months of smacking him everytime he tried to bite her, he finally stopped and became a "nice" horse. :) He bit out of affection from a colt(hood?)-- no one had ever stopped it. Started out as "cute" :rolleyes:

She still had to use double and check reins, plus a bunch of other "heavy duty" horse stuff to let him know she was on his back, not a fly, and to do what she wanted to do.

She wouldn't dream of using the same methods on her 14 hand Tenn. Walker these days. A much smaller and sneakier horse in her resistance :D. But she still has had to adapt some system to let the horse know what is allowed and wanted.

I view dog training the same way. There are basic principles.... but training my 17 pound adult dog when she was a head strong 9 months old and training a future 80-100 pounder of the same age obviously needs a bit of consideration for each situation. Respect the dog for what it is, but don't expect a miracle of understanding unless you make it perfectly clear what is not allowed. Don't be brutal, just effective.

Kind of goes back to the toddler reaching for the hot pot of water on the stove. Does saying "no" work for future instances? Or would a quick hard swat on the butt be more effective?
jmho.
toodles

HI there Sara

NOw you are going to think i am nuts - that's OK, you can if you want! :D

That was some big quarter horse - did he still have a good "start" if you get what I mean? I'd have liked to see him gallop :)

If he had been my hoss :), i would have used the clicker, properly conditioned, and seen where that took me. The clicker is used a bit in behavioural work with horses now, (but not commonly). My own trainer who has a NF x Arab clicker trains hers....in fact for a laugh she taught him to pick up his bucket the other day!!! :D

The clicker can be used to help re-train bad behaviour, as well as good.

This is how karen Pryor etc started to understand how to train big animals with the clicker - because, as you say with your mum, the animals are very big and it is necessary to use a huge amount of force to "win" - but with the clicker you don't need the physical dominance at all.

A 10 year old kid could teach a killer whale with the clicker. That's what it's all about. :)

LIndsay

"A 10 year old kid could teach a killer whale with the clicker."

Lindsay, probably - as long as the 10 year old stayed alive long enough, or stayed on their feet long enough in the case of a big/giant breed uncontrolled galoot of a dog :-).

I'm getting nervous about continuing the 'smacking' discussion on this thread. Opinions are fine, but Fiona has a real problem - close to a canine emergency imho - and we must be confusing rather than helping her.

So may I offer Fido the Hypothetical Hound from Hell in another thread later this evening? I'll amalgamate him from the worst (and some of the best) of my own dogs male, female, living and dead (contributions welcome!). As I own/have owned all of him at some time, I've a good idea how he reacts and we can debate how to cope with him without running the risk of making life even more perplexing for Fiona & Saffy.

John I think that's a good question. Can I ask what you would do as I would really value your opinion. :-)

Sometimes my boy can push his luck as he has a very low boredom threshold and it can be difficult at times to keep his mind busy 100% when say you are doing the ironing, cooking dinner etc. He's greedy and kongs don't last very long :rolleyes:

For example the other evening I knew I had loads to do in the house so I took the dogs for an extra long walk through fields, loads of smells etc. had a fab time and they were absolutely exhausted by the time we got back which I thought great, they'll have a kip for an hour or so just long enough for me to get on with things then I can do a bit of play and training. Ha didn't work. My 3 yr old bitch would quite happily snooze but my 18mth boy would not sit still and constantly barked at my bitch to get her to play. Anyone have any ideas what I could have done ? Hope I'm not taking this thread off course.

Thanks. :-)

Claire, I would have told him to be quiet and put him in his bed. And if he didn't stay there and got out of it again, then I would have firmly put him back in his bed ;-)

Thanks Leigh :-)

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hi John Hope you did not think I was taking offence no way :), I was just answering your post . the dog beater thing was was not intended for your post at all it was to Lynsy , and still not meant to be offensive to Lynsy or taking offence . Again simply discussing . :)
One other thing to the way you get the dog by the head so he cant bite , Well lol:) I cant see me managing Alec like that . I would simply hit the deck again :D :D.
I really do not have to chastise or wheedle my dogs , They are very good I enjoy them so much and they are a great comfort to me .
I abhor cruelty . I was never one for walloping my children either but I admit when ever they did get a wallop it was never thought out or planned, usually a spur of the moment thing if I was very annoyed . Well my children feel I was ok anyway :) lol Mari

Course I did not think that Marie :) one of the reasons why I posted the original question was to stimulate discussion, which I believe it did! What you said about not being able to use my method for disciplining the dominant dog is exactly the point I was trying to make about there being no one method for everyone.

We start to learn things when we are born and continue learning until the day we die. The great thing about a board such as this is the wealth of information available. This can also be its greatest problem! So much info that for an inexperienced person can lead into "Information Overload"! When instructing a beginner’s class, I only tell one method. I watch the class and if things are going ok I leave it at that. If I see a person having difficulties with something I try to analyse where they are going wrong then I will show then alone a different method which I think would be more appropriate. In a more advanced class I might hold a discussion about the different methods but by then the people will have had more experience and will be better able to assimilate the info.

Best wishes, John

Thank you John for that :-) I didn't personally feel I had misunderstood your question, however what you have just explained I have found very useful indeed. In fact some of the things you mention I already do with my dogs and I have to say my 3yr old bitch is very well behaved and so I just hope that if I continue with my 18mth male it will all eventually sink in, once he is through his adolescence :rolleyes: Being weimaraners they really test you and I've found that if my bitch thinks about doing something she shouldn't I only have to pretend I'm going to stand up or look at her directly in the eye and she stops dead. She still tries it on every now and then but she *knows* she won't get away with it, I wonder why she bothers even trying but then I guess that's the weimaraner for you!

I was interested in this thread because my boy can really push me to my limits and I wanted to see how everyone else deals with annoying situations. Like when he stands in front of us barking and barking and barking. I know fine well he wants attention the thing is do I continue the "be quiet" command in a growly voice, usually eventually having to stand up to make myself heard, do I take his head into my hands and stare him directly in the eye telling him to "be quiet" until he looks away which I have done in the past when he's really gone too far or do I ignore the barking as if I speak to him no matter what I'm saying he's getting the attention he wants? Trouble is I have tried to ignore the barking and he eventually stops after about 1½ mins which is a long time to listen to it. Thoughts anyone ? :-)

Hi John, OK, here is a true life happening. What would you, and other like minded clicker enthusiasts have done? A good few years ago, when I was a lot younger ( thank god) I was sitting in a ring craft training hall, waiting for my daughter to arrive. My male wolfie was sitting quietly next to me, fortunately I had my hand through the loop of the lead, and was holding it firmly. My daughter suddenly came through the swing doors, the dog took off to go and greet her, and I was towed, face first across the floor. I held on for grim life because we had been told never to let go of the lead and let a loose dog run in the hall. So, my dog got told off in no uncertain terms ( he had never done this trick before) and got a slap on the bum. Im truly not trying to pick an arguement, but what good would a tin of stones or a clicker have done in that situation?

Never used a clicker in my life Philippa! Slap on the bum! This is out of his line of sight particulally as he was heading off away from you. If I have read your message right.

Regards, John

John, it was mainly me and I did misread what you said - sorry. Thanks for the long reply. I agree with much that you say, and wouldn't want to have anyone go back to the old 'Mostian' methods.

One point I would take a wee bit of issue with is size. Agreed a 6' man can easily get physical with a yorkie and a small woman will in bother doing the same with a dane, but at a certain point the handler's size becomes irrelevant. Fido my hypothetical hell hound is over 3' at the shoulder and 10st in weight. He tops 6' easily when he is up on his hind feet, is extremely agile and does 30 mph in 3rd gear. Ian is 6' 2" in his socks, and I've seen him and even bigger men pulled off their feet and along the ground by smaller hounds than Fido. No bad temperament or aggression involved - the hound just had a serious wish to be elsewhere or do something else. If Ian tries clicker training with Fido, an almost fully grown loutish adolescent who has had no training in basic manners, Fido is going to run right over him and will probably eat the d@mn clicker as an encore :-). My own method if I get Fido as a small pup will involve far more bribery, corruption and cheese than smacks, but if I get him out of control and adolescent, he is going to worry me a lot until he is checked, and yes, he is almost certainly going to get a wallop or two.

Maybe size has something to do with the discussion. Phil, Sam, Marie & I all have giant breeds and while we admire the general excellence of temperament, I know that Phil, Marie and I, and probably Sam, are also constantly aware of the sheer power and destructive potential of these dogs, none of which are the easist breeds to train. So we demand instant obedience on a limited number of things - sheep, mouthing, jumping up, rough play - and if we can't get it by persuasion, are not willing to take the risk of allowing the dog to continue with unwanted and possibly dangerous behaviour for one second longer than necessary for the want of a smack.