Anyone read peggy graysons colum Our Dogs dogs today, re it being perfectly acceptable & in some cases preferable for bitches to have a litter at her first season?

:rolleyes:

did you see it liberty? i was shocked. apparently a litter from a very young bitch is preferable as she hasent finished growing yet so her muscles etc will be more pillable <sp?> & all bitches which have a season are mature enough for a litter.

apparently nowdays we compare dogs too much with people:rolleyes:

No Michelle I didn't see it, but how they can say it is a good idea to breed from a bitch in her first season is beyond me, how can the the dog be mature enough

its mature enough because it wouldnt have a season if it wasnt so she says. (im not quoting left it at work....hope i havent got it all wrong now)

& all bitches which have a season are mature enough for a litter.

apparently nowdays we compare dogs too much with people

Didn't see it, must look it up. Certainly don't agree. One of the puppies from my last litter has just started her first season -she is 8 months old! And as for people -well my daughetr started her "seasons" aged 9 and I don't think she was old enough to breed either had she wanted to...........

please read it marianne cos im worried ive misunderstood it now!!!!

re people i think she was saying we must not confuse young bitches with young girls. & in the wild animals breed as soon as they have a season

But in a wild wolf or dog pack, only the alpha female would breed and a bitch would not be alpha at 8 months!!!  (Aren't other bitch's seasons suppressed in wild packs)

yes i thought that, but by then i think she was talking about animals in general, not wolves?
i wish someone else had read it...i feel i am getting it all wrong!!!!

Okay I've read it now and she's lost the plot. How can she call a 2 year old bitch "middle aged"? How can she compare bitches in the wild with bitches as pets, they will not come in season at the same time. (Am I correct in thinking that wild bitches only come in season once a year as well? Sure I heard that once. Compare to cats that do not come in call during the winter normally, but do when they are pets as they live indoors and so aren't affected by weather.)  How can she say that a bitch will only come into season if she is mature enough and able to rear a litter when as I have just said one I bred is in at 8 months and she is NOT fully grown yet, she does not have her mature height at all for a start! Oh and she mentions small breeds coming in at 6 months so should they be bred then??!!

What REALLY makes me not listen to a single word is then all the stories she tells about people wanting to breed a litter from their pet bitch, and not having a clue how to do it, such as wanting to bring the bitch on a day that suits them, never mind when she is ready. Yes we all know people like that, but she actually ACCEPTED the bitches and had her studs mate them!!!!

Excellent point about your daughter Marianne, and put so much better than I could, hence I didn't attempt it ;)

she wasnt saying that in humans it was ok!!!
oh dear ive confused you!!!!(& myself) wish id brought it home so i could refer to it!!!!

I lost all respect for her years ago, when she wrote that she'd never place a tailed spaniel no matter how good it was, and after the KC had allowed undocked examples of traditionally docked breeds to be shown. Such bias from a judge astounds me.

Yes much as I believe there should be a choice, a dog isn't ONLY a tail (or lack of it) -surely a good judge should always look to the dog as a whole.

I guess this is like many other things - opinions change all the time.  Look at all the different theorys we've had over the years regarding the upbringing of children.  Smacking has been encouraged, it's been banned.  Feeding on demand was in fashion, 4-hourly only was once the thing.  Strong discipline/not so strong.  Ages of consent changing.  Etc etc.  The list is endless.  I prefer to think there is no right or wrong way of anything really.  We are all different and all have different opinions.  Obviously there has to be ground rules (like you said about your 9 yr old daughter Goldmali), but a lot of it changes with the times, and is down to opinion and new research etc.

PG is from the old school of thinking that goes down the "if the bitch is old enough for a season it can be bred from" Ignoring of course that most health tests can't be done until the dogs are at least 1 year old if not older !

She judged a local show & I entered one of my BC's without looking at the judge-he was running in the sheepdog trial at the same show Well the silly woman said in a loud voice as she went over him"I much prefer the working ones these show versions are really not collies at all"& then chucked us out. I went back to the dog show later in the day clutching my dog's winning trophy & rosette from the Open trial just as the dogs for BIS were filing into the ring I waved at her & called out"Yoo Hoo Mrs Gayson-see what my dog has got from the sheepdog trial First & his final points needed to run at this years Engish National"Bit of a white lie as he had already qualified but the look on her face was priceless

Fantastic Moonmaiden! My bcs are bred to work but many do equally well in the breed ring. I have couple of wsds too but I didnt breed them myself. The is no difference in the working ability of my bcs and the wsds. They should be able to do both.

LOL the point was he was actually a Champ Show breed winner as well as a highly successful trialling dog(he was an ISDS dog never owned a BC with any KC reg(not even dual reg)in his breeding), her final cut for BIS were all Gundogs & the Lab was so grossly overweight it could hardly walk-got Res BIS though ! & her BPIS etc were also all gundogs Oddly they were all very def the show versions considering her views on BCs Silly Moo comes to mind :D

I think you have a point about fashion/perceived wisdom changing over time. Peggy Grayson does note that the very big breeds often don't come into season until later. My own breed often doesn't come into season until 18 months plus. I think on balance I'd sooner mate an 18 month bitch on her first season than put off having a first litter until she is 5 when her show career allows. I'd certainly expect less problems with the young bitch than the 'elderly primigravida'. Yet postponing a first litter to fit with the show ring seems to be considered quite 'respectable'.

I also agree with you about there being few absolute rights and wrongs. People in dogs - and on this forum :) - can be a little reluctant to consider that any but the most vocal group might just have a point sometimes!

Most bitches' careers have proved themselves by the time they're 3 years old, and can take time out to have their first litter, then take up where they left off afterwards! ;)

Nevertheless I know of several, and I'm sure you do too, where it was left until later because of a desire to keep her in the ring. My impression is that older bitches with a first litter are more likely to run into problems.

Oh, so when Asti, my first Munster bitch came into season at 9 months old, it would have been ok to breed from her without her having been hip scored or eye tested?    Where does PG stand on health testing? 

From a personal point of view, she wrote in her DW column that she didn't judge breeds she didn't like, as she never judged Munsters....says it all and whenever she went to Europe to judge and saw a gundog breed not recognised here it was always written about as being like 'a Munsterlander cross'!!!!

Yep that was my plan mated my bitch after her second CC at 2 years 2 months, but unfortunately she missed and now if I mate on her next season she will miss all bar 3 shows this year.  Crufts she is lkely to be out of coat, (missed entires closing for Manchester as she had been mated) she is due to be in season the weekend of our club champshow, and then  will be lucky to have her fit again by LKA.

Very difficult in  a coated breed especially to fit a show carreer around maternal duties.

Totally agree - similarly if a dog which normally has a full tail but due to injury has had an amputation this shouldn't have a bearing on a decision!

Although permission does have to be sought from the kennel club.

could you tell me where this colum is?  do you mean dogs today magazine? or our dogs newspaper?

our dogs n/p that came out on friday

http://s7.invisionfree.com/dogadvicetraininguk