Bear with me.

Having read Beks thread and Beaus and some others  thread I am VERY confused.

I am going to be looking for a Puppy within the next few months.  I obviously want to go to a reputable breeder, who has registered with the KC and preferably belongs to a breed club, as I am ( rightly or wrongly) under the impression that this will elimate "dodgy" breeders.

My confusion lies with the pedigree of the dog, from the posts I have read,  some of you are saying that, a good example of the breed can only be got from someone who's bitch/stud has been shown, won classes, and is recognised.  So does that mean that I should only be looking at puppies/dogs who have lots of red champs on the pedigree form!  I am not being flippant, but that is how it is coming across to us novices, well, this novice,  and after all, most of the newbies on the board will be novices in the dog world, thats why we come on here ans ask what might seem silly questions to those of you with more experience.

If I find a breeder who does not have a line of class winners in recent years, does that mean I should avoid the puppies they produce.

Appreciate your advice

Tanya

It's not that easy! ;) Many excellent dogs do well in the showring but never get made up into Champions, not least because there is a limit to the number of CCs available each year, and existing Champions also compete for these. What you need to look for is consistency - not necessarily class winners all the time, but usually up in the placings.

I would certainly expect a fair few champions on both sides of the pedigree (in your breed as it has Champion status in this country) I would also expect most of teh ones that aren't champions to have achieved their Stud Book qualification (Stud Book numbers).  this shows that they ahve won at a reasonably high level, having won either a JW, RCC, CC or top placings in Open and for popular breeds in Limit classes at Championship shows.

If you go to these websites http://www.cidweb.co.uk/ http://www.fossedata.co.uk/results/show.asp andhttp://www.highampress.co.uk/home1.htm  and look at the championship show results for your breed for a given year you will see many of the same dogs being shown, and they will ahve slightly different results from shwo to show, but you will usually see a pattern, usually inthe top 3, or usually placed near the bottom, or whatever, obviously you won't see the unplaced ones, and if the classes are big even a fifth is a good result.

Anyone seriously involved with a breed I would expect to be a member of a bred club.

Now I understand the response of the previous threads I have mentioned. A reputable breeder would be involved in the breed, may not show to the highest standard, but the mating pair will at least come from a selective line of dogs, that have  a kennel history of being placed.  Not because I as "Pet" owner require a "Show" dog, but because, if a want a miniature schnauzer ( i do i do) I need to make sure that the dog that I get is, a good all round specamin (lost the spelling their) of the breed with the character of the breed. Is that right.

Can I just throw a spanner in  the above though:rolleyes:  How do I know, that the breeder is not just breeding for the sake of "Showing and gaining certs", as I am sure that thier are breeders out thier who are interested in thier own self esteem and  not the line of the dog.  Again as a novice, i have often heard/read of breeders that have so interbred thier dogs that faults start to appear.

Thanks for your respones I am finding this a fascinating  subject to the point that I think I might start attending some shows in my area to see what goes on, is that a good idea

Tanya

ps edit here.. As just read on  other thread, temprament, does this usaully come hand in hand with the above!

You have hit the nail on the head precisely!   It's not exactly the showing that we keep beating the drum about - its the involvement in the breed - and by showing, you do actually compare your dog with its peers - and - let's face it - we all know that our dog/child is the most perfect thing that has ever moved - it has to be - it belongs to me :D - and a disinterested eye can actually pick out the one which is the best example of the breed.

Margot

with mini schnauzers i would be mostly concerned that the parents and puppies had clear eye certificates. if you look on certain sites selling puppies, they are often KC reg but some dont mention the eye testing at all. i would avoid these at all costs. Most eye tested puppies are more expensive but that would be well worth it. Mini schnauzers are a breed often sold by puppy farmers so do be careful. As far as the pedigree goes, i would expect dad to be a champion and grandad but not always mum, some schnauzers may be slightly over-tall to show but can then be used for breeding making for easier births. thats just my opinion of course.

Temperament shoudl be a give in any breeding, and fortunately is one aspect you can judge for yourself when meeting the breeders dogs. 

Suffice to say dogs with poor temperament ae unlikley to do well at shows, and of course correct temperametn is alos part of the breed standard.

Also the winning being important for some people is the same in any human endeavour, but you need good dogs to win. 

If the breeder becoems kennel blind (blind to the faults their dogs have) they will eventually stop winning as the quality of othr peoples dogs wil be better.

Oh if you question a breeder they will be very happy to tell you why they used x dog on their bitch, and bore you to tears with what they hoped to achieve by this.  If they just seem to ahve used a convenient dog then run

HURRAY  HURRAY

NOW I UNDERSTAND...i have to be honest, when i read beks post, adn some of the reponses I was a little angry as i felt that, some of you, were being harsh and against others wanting to breed, from the answers I have had, i now appreciate what you were trying to say.

I am still undecided about getting a puppy, but at least now I know what to do when the final decision has been made, but think I will still attend a few shows, and try and get my "Eye" in!

Not because I as "Pet" owner require a "Show" dog, but because, if a want a miniature schnauzer ( i do i do)cool I need to make sure that the dog that I get is, a good all round specamin (lost the spelling their) of the breed with the character of the breed. Is that right.

Yes. :)

How do I know, that the breeder is not just breeding for the sake of "Showing and gaining certs", as I am sure that thier are breeders out thier who are interested in thier own self esteem and  not the line of the dog.  Again as a novice, i have often heard/read of breeders that have so interbred thier dogs that faults start to appear.

First off you get recommendations from the breed club on breeders, as that is a very good start. Secondly ask to meet the breeder -regardless of whether they have puppies or not. Visit them, meet their dogs, have a chat. A good breeder will want to ask YOU a LOT of questions, and the more they ask, the more they usually care about where their dogs end up. You will no doubt soon find out if their dogs are possessions kept for winning prizes only, or if they are loved as pets as well. :) You can usually tell by how they deal with their dogs, talk to them etc. Well that's been my experience anyway- and it is what people have said when meeting me, they like the fact the can tell my dogs are first and foremost family members.

Interbreeding is actually mating together unrelated dogs of different breeds. :) I think you mean inbreeding. Inbreeding cannot create any problems, it can only bring out what there already is within the line- as when you double up anything lurking will come to the fore. Experienced breeders will often line breed, which is a less extreme form of inbreeding. Inbreeding is mating mother to son, brother to sister etc., line breeding could involve say cousin to cousin.(Which would even be allowed in humans!) And line breeding is usually the best way TO breed.  Even somebody not interested in their dogs as anything but trophies would obviously not want them to develop faults, and whatever health tests are done in the breed (sorry I have no idea about schnauzers!) you can ask the breeder to see proof of the parents' testing -that is perfectly acceptable. :) I'd also say that a decent breeder if asked would also be able to provide you with the details of some previous puppy buyers (pet buyers) that could tell you if they are happy with their dog -I know I certainly would and could if asked to, as a reference.

Tanya, just want to say well done  for wording your post so well.  In doing so, you have created an excellent thread with replies that must surely be understandable by anyone interested in buying a good tempered, well bred, healthy puppy as a pet, as well as explaining to others who are considering mating their nice pets the importance of breeding from truly good quality dogs. :D

PS I used to trim a number of pet bred mini schnauzers with woolly coats and temperaments that meant that they had to be shut away when the families had visitors!  YOU don't want to live with one of those!! ;)  The owner of the dam would tell me that the bitch was lovely, but she obviously didn't know what was behind her or the sire!!;)