The fact that people breed randomly is why there are actually 10 times the number of documented Genetic diseases in people compared to dogs.

I've got a genetic potentially fatal defect myself, which was passed on by my dad. When I was born this condition was not known, nor had it been discoveed when I had my own children -it is a recent discovery. Now I know my kids each have a 50 % chance of having it. Had I known this back then, I very much doubt I would have had children.

Atleast now though they can be testd and their partners too so that they can decide for themselves if they should have children.

bek, do you have her pedigree?  From the Kennel Club?

It is possible to get 5 generation pedigrees from the Kennel Club - if you don't have a 5 generation one, you should definitely buy one.

That will show you much more and anyone in the breed will be able to tell a lot from looking at it.

You've talked lots of sense there Beau.  I asked somewhere amongst all this nonsense if they believed in 'designer babies' but no-one answered  :-(

That's because it's irrelevant Jayne.

Or perhaps you'd prefer that the only dog in the world is a browny/blacky mutt?

That's a bit extreme onetwothree ;-)

Not really, if we all thought like you and just bred any dog to any dog and any cat to any cat, it is genetically proven that we'd just end up with a generic mutt. 

But we don't all think like me, that's the point.  There is room for you, and there is room for me.  Variety is the spice of life and all that  :-)

Cross breeding is how many dogs came about, golden retriever being one of them, they originated from a st johns newfounlands and a setter

Yes, but they evolved to fulfill a need for a dog to do a certain job, not simply to produce puppies.  A those who developed these breeds, put a lot of planning, time and money into do it.  There was a goal in sight, not just to produce pets.

> There is room for you, and there is room for me.

But what about all those in rescues?   It's well know that dogs from good breeders rarely end up in rescue (and if they do, it's without the breeders knowledge), the vast majority are crossbreeds and those from puppy farms and pet breeders, who think, like you appear to, that it's perfectly acceptable to breed a litter just because you want to.

Sorry, but I disagree.  The same could be said about ANY person who breeds ANY cat or ANY dog.  Yes, we all know there are plenty in rescue.  If we ALL stop breeding ANYTHING, then more of these poor animals would be rehomed, but again, it is a sweeping statement, and we aren't ALL going to stop are we?

That is why you need a good reason for breeding, not just breed because you can.

Not until there is no longer a rescue dog problem. 

The only justification for breeding at all when there are homeless dogs is to preserve and improve the breeds we have. 

It is also why I do not beleive in creating new breeds too, as to do so would mean breeding an awful lot with lots of wastage before you got what you wanted and a wide enough healthy gene base.

There are welfare organisations that want breeding curtailed and would prefer no more breeding AT ALL!!!

Now to save such a situation from happening surely it would be a good thing if only well thought out litters designed to enhance the breed were bred.

There would be a huge reduction of dogs going into rescue.  Most that needed rehoming due to changes in owners circumstances would go back to their breeder who would match them with someone willing to take on a rescue of their breed.

If evey pet owner who found theri pet bitch had been mated was responsible enough NOT TO REAR that llitter then even more dogs already in rescue would be likely to find homes.  I also feel that Rescue centres should not rear litters from bitches they find to be pregnant.

The vast majority of so called pedigree dogs unregistered and registered do nothing for the breed, and if most of them were not bred the rescue centres woudl be practically empty.

The people who really wanted a good example of the breed would go to the specialist breeder, the rest who only want a pet (looks and characteristics immaterial), would get a rescue dog.

Sadly more and more good breders breed fewer and fewer litters because there are so many in recue centres, yet the rescue problem keeps being fueled by largely misgided people breeding from poor stock (from the breeding standard point of view) because of lack of knowledge just because the can/want to.

jayneuk your ignorance is unbelieveable, people have explained to you why you shoulodnt have done it and you FAIL to see that, I call this ignorance (or stupidity).  They have also expalined why Bek should not breed.  After all the advice you and other people have received on this forum from people with a wealth of experience you still cant (more like wont), see what is wrong then you need your head looking at.  Breeders breed quality, healthy puppies of sound temperament, and care about what happens to their bitch and puppies throughout their lifetime.  Producers mate a dog and bitch without due care and attention and then plead ignorance when their errors are pointed put.  It is obvious you support puppy producers, I know which I support and respect and it certainly is not producers, they are a disgrace to dogs.  You seem to be enjoying encouraging bad breeding because it will make you feel better, you cant see through your rose tinted glasses and you also seem to enjoy winding people up on here and being highly disrespectful.  I just hope you are in a position to explain to your puppy owners about food/resource guarding and can advise them on how to prevent it with their puppies.   
And to deliberatly cross breed pedigree cats is unbeliveable too, there are enough moggies looking for homes without you adding to them and then bragging about it like it is OK.

Beau people are not being catty they actually give a damn but when you end up talking to a brick wall things get a bit heated, people are not being bitchy just offering sound advice that is being ignored.

As Val said people can be passing on time bombs to new owners because of their lack of knowledge and ability of take advice, dont know how they live with it personally, I couldnt do it.

also wanted to add if people are considering breeding without experience and knowledge (or helped by someone who is experienced and has knowledge) they should go and visit a few rescue shelters and see the poor dogs living in there as it is highly likely this is where some of their puppies may end up.

But I don't agree with puppy producers.  I don't agree with people that breed just for money, and breed without looking into it all properly - without health checks, or too young, etc, people who breed relentlessly from bitches without properly caring for her welfare, and like I said before who bring pups up in sheds or outside kennels with little or no human contact.  Are they puppy producers?  I thought they were.  I'm sorry, but I just can't see what is wrong with breeding from a dog who either shows resource guarding, or is white.  You can bully me all you like, but I can't change my opinion. 

Nobody's bullying anyone, Jayne.

Yes, all those sorts of people could be described as puppy producers. Equally so can those who breed outwith the breed standard.

no one is bullying anyone or trying to change your opinion, we are trying to educate others who read this...  there is alot wrong with breeding from a dog that is unsuitable (temp/colour/conf etc) but of course you cant stop people 'producing' puppies from dogs like this....  I would class the people you described at Puppy Farmers. I would class someone who mates a dog and a bitch without knowledge, experience, ethics, etc a producer/backyard type.  Neither of these are what I would call 'Breeders' Can you still not see the difference?

Well I'm happy to agree to disagree.  Seems that is the only way of ending this tedious discussion.

Jayne

When you mated your Ragdoll & BSH together did you have them blood grouped to see if they were blood group compatible?    Did you have sire & dam tested for FeLV or FIV?     Do you know about PKD?    Although more predominant in the Persian's & Exoctics it is something any cat can suffer from and they can now be DNA tested for this.      Breeeding cats is not just a matter of sticking 2 cats together and hoping for a litter of kittens after 63 days.

I'm only a novice in the cat world but I'm prepared to listen to breeders who have my breed and who know a lot more than I do, I also want to breed my first litter of kittens knowing that they are genetically clear for PKD as well as FeLV & FIV.   If I didn't care, I'd just let her out in call for the nearest tom to get her.

Another thing is, to keep an entire male cat to work with  just 1 queen is cruel too.

It was many years ago that I bred pedigree cats.  The mating in question took place approximately 11 years ago.  I haven't even had a pedigree cat for years.  At that time, all my cats had the relevent health tests done. 

I had many girls and one stud.  He was a cream - a brother of Grand Champion Comforts Cherokee Chief - I'm sure you've heard of him :-)

You are quite right about entire cats needing more than one female.  They need lots actually - greedy things  ;-)

He was a cream - a brother of Grand Champion Comforts Cherokee Chief - I'm sure you've heard of him :-)

He was a UK Grand actually. Regardless, being the brother/sister/parent/whatever of a titled cat or dog doesn't mean your cat was of the same standard, does it. Just that they shared common ancestry.

LOL I never said he was of the same "standard" did I?  For gods sake, what a nightmare you are.

LOL I never said he was of the same "standard" did I?

Why mention it at all then?

Why not?  Was just chatting.  Is that ok? 

I don't agree with people that breed just for money, and breed without looking into it all properly - without health checks,

So why didn't you make sure the stud dog you used was haemeophilia free? And were your BSH and Ragdoll cats  (not to mention the mogs) you mated together tested for FeLV, FIV and PKD before being mated?

Yes, they were, as I have said previously.  Yawn.

I think the stud dog is haemeophilia tested.  All their boys are, so I'm sure he is.  They are a very reputable kennel who have all necessary tests done.

Is that ok Lady Goldmali?  ;-)

I wouldn't have thought guessing sufficient. :( Unless you're certain, and have seen his certification (proof that he actually passed the test!), then you're taking a huge risk.

I think the stud dog is haemeophilia tested.  All their boys are, so I'm sure he is.  They are a very reputable kennel who have all necessary tests done.

Is that ok Lady Goldmali?

Hardly. You think he was tested? Surely you didn't pay a stud fee without PROOF of all health testing????

Like I said, they are a reputable kennel.  I met all their dogs etc, and have no concerns thank you. 

Like I said, they are a reputable kennel.

No truly reputable breeder would allow their stud to mate a non standard pet bitch.

LOL

> I met all their dogs etc, and have no concerns thank you

No it is obvious from your postings that little concerns you except your right to breed from your bitch and produce puppies.  As to whether you puppy buyers will have concerns - I guess that's in the lap of the gods now.
It's this sort of breeding that gives breeders a bad name.

What 'sort of breeding'?  I'm not too sure what you think I've done wrong to be honest.  My girl was 2 years old, on her third season and hipscored before she went to stud.  The stud dog has a low hipscore also, and is haemophilia free.  I just rang to check, although there was not really a need to as I know all their dogs are well checked - they are all from German lines.  I don't think they would travel backwards and forwards to Germany for 'substandard' (as you call it) puppies.  Pups were born indoors, and are being raised indoors with the family and lots of love and handling. So what actually have I done wrong please?

I don't know much about breeding and less about GSDs so I'm asking this as a genuine question....

Given that long coated GSDs are a major deviation from the breed standard, would a truly reputable breeder encourage the mating of long coat bitch to long coat male??

would a truly reputable breeder encourage the mating of long coat bitch to long coat male

Simple answer No

There people who breed longcoats for obedience who do all the health tests etc & some I knwo very well(even placed some of their dogs at shows)but doesn't mean they are right breeding from dogs that deviate from the breed standard. My German friend who breeds GSDs has the occasion long coat in her liters from correct coated parents, they can be worked in Germany, but as they cannot past the breed survey they do not get pink pedigrees & therefore they are rarely if ever bred from

I agree to a certain extent but only as far as the coat colour issue goes.  If the original poster had a good, honest example of the breed with an excellent temperament, good health test results etc, had support systems in place within her breed to help and advise (and when I say within her breed I mean people whom she respects and trusts their advise and opinions).  It would still worry me however, in the op's position knowing exactly how many gsd's are in rescue though, but hey, who's to say she doesn't have 20 acre's at her disposal and the time and energy to rehome any returned pups etc?  I try hard not to trample on peoples dreams but I feel she knew the answer to her question before she asked it.  If the above was an accurate description of her situation she wouldn't care less how she would be judged by onlookers.

But now unfortunately our opinions diverge drastically, personally I'm horrified at the idea that someone would breed from a bitch who'd bitten her son and had a history, however slight, of aggression.  I don't care how often you point out that many dogs resource guard and that she was in whelp I can make no other conclusion than you are a puppy producer.  It doesn't matter to me whether your pups were born in the kitchen or the kennel you did it simply because you wanted to, your bitch came second and the breed way down the line.  

Now of course, everyone who breeds a litter does so for their own private reasons and by and large all have to take responsibility for the problem of dogs ending up in rescue.  The breeders that I admire and respect are those that plan for every eventuality and try their utmost to produce healthly sound dogs, physically, mentally and emotionally (shock horror, some of them even kennel their dogs .....).  As hard as I try (and I've read and reread your posts) you just don't fit this description and I suspect that you, more than anyone else realises this too.

yes i do have a 5 genaration pedigree do the kennel club sell a book that has a list of affixs in this might help have done searches but to no avil

Right Bek - i've just googled GSD pedigree data base and found these two sites:-

www.gsdonline.com

www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd

Just do random searches - type in one of the names on your KC pedigree and see if it is on the database.   Good, responsible breeders share this information as a general rule and you should at least find one name there!

Good luck - you've got a lot of research to do, and probably a lot of telephone calls to make!

Margot

I'm curious, bek - is the stud dog you've chosen also white? If so, why did you choose him over a standard-coloured dog?

yes he is also white the mating is not definate yet i choose him as i was advised by another white gsd breeder that he produces good pups of sound temprement and he has a good hip score and is hemo clear i have been in contact with his breeders and she has agreed in principle but wants to cheack further

So the deciding factor about him is his colour? You plan deliberately to breed away from the standard?

Well you could get all blacks which are correct to the breed standard ;)

Fingers crossed, eh? :)

yes i will keep my fingers crossed i would love a black gsd

no the stud carries the gene for many different colours and is not of just white breeding himself

Bek, can I politely ask - why does the stud dog "happen" to be white?  Given the number of GSDs in the UK, I find it incredibly unlikely that the most suitable stud would just happen to also be white.

You have said that you want to keep a pup, but you have also said a few times now, that you don't mind if the pup you keep is standard colour.

Therefore, if you are going to breed, why not do the SLIGHTLY more responsible thing and at least use a standard colour stud dog, so that the puppies have the best chance of being standard colour and of meeting the breed standard?

If the stud is "white" he can only carry white & black. I've never seen a really white "white"99 % are at not white but at the best cream & at the worst a dirty brown biscuit colour

Only dogs that carry the sable colour pattern definitely can carry all colours.& patterns,  My late Black & Tan german import carried all the colours except white & he also carried the sable patterning. He was haemo clear & had perfect hips & was never used on a LC or white bitch(despite quite a few requests). He never produced any LC either

White is recessive to all other colors except black. In order get a white coat color, both parents must carry the white gene (either be white themselves or be carriers.)

>she is a wgsd i hate to think that i would be classed as a back yard breeder just because of her colour

Honest opinion,  Bek? well, based on the information you have given so far,  I would class you as a backyard breeder with very little knowledge for breeding dogs at all, never mind white GSD's. 

The GSD is one breed that has suffered greatly from health problems as a result of backyard breeders, puppy farmers and over-breeding here in the UK.  Not to mention, how many are in rescue....

If you really want to breed GSD's, learn about them, go to shows in Germany and in the UK, study the bloodlines, genes, breeding practices, conformation, what's lacking in the breed in the current day etc.  Read as many books as possible, study genetic conditions, approach breeders; have a breed mentor, study the breed standard here in the UK and also Germany.  And that's only for starters.

Above all, listen and take heed of good proven experienced breeders.

And then when you're ready which could take years depending on the time you have to spare, get yourself a solid foundation bitch from impeccable bloodlines and with the help of a breed mentor, start your lines.