Are there any other active dog owners out there who can reasure me that I don't have a totally untrainable dog on my hands?!

I have an 8 month old pointer and we have been going to puppy classes since he was 12 weeks old yet he still won't calm down, not even for a second whilst we are there.  We've practiced loads at home, in the park etc and he knows all of the basic moves yet whilst at puppy class his mind is totally focused on the other dogs and nothing I do seems to help.  He's never been food motivated which is a problem and last night the trainer suggested I try at home to get him fixated on a particular toy that I can take to puppy class instead of food but the most difficult thing is between goes when he continually pulls me towards the other dogs and he might only be 8 months but he is really really strong! - I can't see how a toy can help with this?  Every week I come out of the 2 hour class totally exhausted, my hands covered in blisters and a bad back from bending down and holding him still.  I am also aware that as I get more and more stressed out during the class these feelings probably transfer to him making the situation even worse! 

I know he is an active dog and still a puppy but when I see all of the other dogs sat nice and quietly waiting for their turn it makes me feel so inadequate.  I do want to continue with the classes as Nero's fixation on other dogs is one of the key things we need to overcome in order to get a totally reliable recall on walks but I need help!  Where am I going wrong?! 

At 8 months he's entering the Kevin stage, when their brains fall out of their ears and they become hooligans (just like adolescent boys)! Does he get to interact with other dogs when you're out on walks? Is there a relaxed play-session at training as well as the work?

Hi Jeangenie

Thanks for your reply.  The dogs have a 5 minute play outside halfway through the class - although this play session used to be longer in the beginners class.  The trainer is very good and is apdt registered.  As for interaction with other dogs he has loads of friends!  We meet up on walks with dogs of all different sizes and temperaments and he gets laods of playtime with them every day.  Could this be the problem?  perhaps he thinks every time he meets another dog its purely for play, although i would have thought that he would have learnt a little restraint now - we have been going to classes for nearly 5 months!

If you're not already doing it, I suggest that part of his walks every day involve lead walking beside other dogs who are also on lead, when you and the other owners can chat as you go. He's still too young for loads of free running so this will be beneficial physically.

He's still very much a puppy, remember! For showing purposes he'd be in the Minor Puppy class - the youngest one there is! So expect puppy-like behaviour for a long time yet; it'll probably be several years till he matures mentally (some would say he never will!).

Hope this helps!

What I often find with very active dogs is that you need to balance between getting them to listen to you, and giving them outlets for their needs. You also need to allow them to keep fit and active, but also to learn to relax, and a very fit dog will often just be happy with more and more exercise physically! :P

I agree with Jeangenie, the Kevin stage is most definitely arrived; what you have to do really is train through this. I'd also suggest finding something that uses his instinctive needs - perhaps with this boy using his nose would be something he'd find very rewarding, and retrieving things in a game. They are as you know, bred to spend long days in the field, and are biddable but have a lot of energy to use up. Mentally tiring them, therefore, can be very useful - I'd suggest thinking along the lines of learning some trials or working trials basic nosework as I suspect he would then understand that controlling himself leads to doing what he really enjoys. You don't have to compete, but just learn to set up the kind of "work" that he'd best enjoy. I think this might help quite a lot :)

A useful exercise is teaching the "Watch me" as this can help to focus even the dizziest dog, although it will take time and you will have to build up the "Watch me" time slowly...

Also getting him to Sit and Wait, then release for a reward is good, as it teaches self control - clicker is very good for this. You may need to use what motivates him best as his reward though, as food rewards don't always "do it" for a dog who is all over the place - a toy may well be better esp. if you keepthis special (as in, when he is "working").

I think a 2 hour class if very long for a 8 m old puppy!

We normally at our training class do 5-10 min training then play it is very difficult to keep them focused for long periods.

I have beardies very bright boisterous dogs with loads of energy not so much interested in other dogs as gets bored doing repetative things.

So we tend to only practice different things for short periods.eg: one or two nice sits then treat and play this keeps them more focused on you  rather than looking around at other dogs.

Do they do agility at your training class obviously you cant do jumps yet as he is to young but if you just chose the weave or long jump or tunnel to practice on and get him to use his brain.

I find that agility tires them out physically and mentally but our classes are only 1 hr long and that is AG/OB together.

What treats do you use bis or dry food dont work you need something that has a smell I use proper sausages or lamb even salmon to get the attention .
As your trainer suggested to get your dog fixated on a toy but remember to only use that particular toy for training not normal play time..so put it away!
I use a ball.... my girls are obsessed with the ball and focus completely on it but they only get it at certain times which makes it exciting.Try a ball on a rope or a squeeky toy if he like the noise.
I started of with the ball by using a football in the garden then moving onto a small ball.

I also agree with using the "watch" or I use "look"
get him to sit and hold a treat next to your eye and say "look" when he looks up and is still sitting then treat its quite easy and they pick it up fast gradually you can move on to no treat just the command gets them to "look" up at your face and focus!
I use this walking to heel when mine start to sniff the floor or I notice them loosing consentration.

Also 8m is very young dont be put off by other peoples progress different dogs and breeds mature at different stages my breed dont mature until at least 2yrs where as some breeds miss out the junior stage (where your at now) and go straight to adult so stick at it ........its worth it ...honest

HTH

Roni

just like to add whe I say 5-10 min training and then play by play I mean interaction between you and your dog eg playing with a toy etc
we are encouraged at training not to let the dogs interact with each other so much once past that early socialisation stage .

Hi Rach and Nero

You say that he's not food orientated - what foods have you tried?  I ask this because sometimes people say that their dogs aren't food orientated and when you ask them what they're feeding, they say "Schmackos" or some other commercial treat.  Or even just the dog's ordinary kibble.

Whereas - your training treats in class need to be higher value than the ones you use on your own with him.  This is because of the extra distractions around.  So you need to use something like hotdog sausages cut up small, cheese cut in cubes, small slithers of ham or sliced chicken, Mattheson's garlic sausage, that kind of thing. 

Does he like to play tuggy?  I agree that getting him really into tuggy could be another solution. 

From what you describe it does sound like he gets LOADS of exposure to other dogs, which is great (if it's the right kind of controlled exposure) in terms of his socialisation and getting on with them.  However, it's also not good for your own relationship with him if he learns that other dogs are so much more interesting than you are.  These days puppies are taken from their litters at about 7 wks, because they are believed to have got enough dog-dog interaction to make them reasonably sociable to dogs, and yet they still have enough time left in their socialisation period to form a bond with people.  I just mention that because studies have been done which show that if they are taken very early from the litter, they form a bond really well with people but not with other dogs.  If they are taken much later, they will be much more dog-focussed than people focussed.  Obviously these are generalisations.  At the moment he is learning that other dogs are fantastic and fun to play with and incredibly rewarding to be with, every time he is out with them.  When you are in a class, it is hardly surprising that he wants to go and play with them! 

I think that you need to work really hard on developing a bond with him, just between you and him.  Tuggy, chasing a ball you throw, and other interactive games are a good way to do this.  Also do lots of reward-based training with him every day, on his own with no other dogs around.  Clicker training in particular is an excellent way to build a bond with a dog. 

In class, try to stand with as big a distance as possible between you and the other dogs, to give yourself a chance of succeeding and to decrease the distraction.  Increase the food value, as I mentioned above.  I don't know what behaviours you're working on, but perhaps you need to work on more simple behaviours even if others are doing something more complicated.  If they're doing stays, you might want to work on "Watch me" for example.  If you can take a clicker to class, try clicking every time he looks at you.  Don't try to ask him to look yet - just click the behaviour when it happens.  You need his attention on you before you can work on any other behaviour. 

Lastly, I'd suggest that you don't let him take part in the 5 minute play time in the middle of class any more.  It is probably even harder for him to concentrate after being able to run free with all those dogs, so I would just wait quietly inside with him.  It would also give you the opportunity to practise some of the behaviours in the training hall, but WITHOUT the other dogs present.  Perhaps take a chew along, just for this 5 min break - chewing is calming and reassuring to dogs and might help reduce the hyper behaviour.  A chew is also a good idea to use during the class, while the instructor is explaining or demonstrating something.  It will help him stop straining to get to the other dogs.  I'd also suggest that you re-think letting him see so many other dogs outside of class.  As he's 8 months old now, the socialisation period is almost entirely past.  It should be enough for him to just see the other dogs at the training class each week, and maybe choosing one dog and one playtime every few weeks so he gets some off-lead socialisation still.  When you do meet up with a dog for some off lead play, ask the other person to keep their dog on a lead until you let yours off.  Then ask him for a behaviour.  Tell him to sit, or to down, or to watch me.  As soon as he does, click (if using a clicker) or praise and let him off.  Try to use the other dogs as a reward which is under your control some of the time - just as you dish out treats and games, try to take control of his access to other dogs and get him to earn it. 

Sorry this is so long!

Thanks everyone, excellent advice as usual!  I think because he is quite a big dog both myself and other people sometimes forget that he is still only a puppy and will behave like a puppy!  We have tried all sorts of treats at puppy class (Liver cake, roast chicken, cheese, hotdogs.... the list is endless!) however the suggestion of only using the really exciting treats at puppy class is a good one as at present I prepare a box of 'treats' each week and use them for all training sessions, regardless of location.  He adores tuggy and this is the game the trainer suggests we play using a new knotted rope toy which will be mine and not his!  Will also try to walk Nero on lead with other dogs as this is something we don't really do out of class leading to horrendous pulling when doing heel exercises in the hall.  We actually picked nero up at 9/12 weeks which we are aware is a little late but we already had a holiday booked before we knew that our preferred breeder had pups so its very interesting what you were saying onetwothree about dogs bonding more with dogs if they are left in the litter longer - will just have to keep working really hard to get him to bond with people and not dogs!

Sorry for such a long post, thanks again, feel much better now! Rach x

Try this , don't feed him his meal until after the training class. It'll probably get him more involved in food and he wont have as much "energy" persay.

PS. get to work on loose leash walking , i find if the dog is less excitable and more trained on lead (ie not pulling like a train) he'll be better in general.

all i can say is that at 8 months i was in the same situation and i used to look at the other dogs in the class with such envy. Now mine is looking at me when i need him to and its going really well. This is my first dog so my success was gained by  persistance and taking advice from the people taking the class. It does come in the end. never give up.

Haven't been to training for a while and must back soon as having probs.

Anyway just wanted to say re food treats for training.  For training classes I buy a tin of spam.  I don't know what it is about it but my dog loves it and when we "swap" dogs on occasion I have found that the other dogs love it as well :D  I don't know if it's the spam itself (smell makes me queazy) or whether it's because it is the only time she gets it.

Hi I have an 18mth old cairn who at the beginning was a star at puppy training but when he hit the "kevin" age he changed almost overnight. I kept thinking I had done something wrong. He is food oriented and at home would work really hard for his reward, but at training class it completely lost its appeal. Another dog had a toy he liked so I bought one and kept it in the kitchen and at regular intervals I showed it too him and put it away and built up the anticipation. He only is allowed that toy as a reward and it has worked. I make sure I take it away whilst he is still interested. I have even swapped toys with another owner and this has also worked. He has now grown up a little bit (and I mean a little bit!!) and he does concentrate better so dont give up or get disheartened it will all come right in the end.  Good Luck.
Jane

Hello

Another good treat tip, which I got from onetwothree, is Mackarel.  It worked much better than the homemade liverbread, sausages, cheese stuff and so on.

Bagpipe

P.S.  But do take some wipes with you for your fingers, it's oily and smelly :)

Glad to hear it's working for you bagpipe!!  Yes, you can buy the smoked mackerel from most supermarkets - it's about £1.20 for a couple of fish and can be cut up into chunks.  You will probably have every other dog in the class with you too!!!

I know this might sound like a stupid question but if puppy classes are a nightmare at the moment and you don't feel you are getting anywhere why not take a break from them altogether and consider other ways of training him?

That's why:   http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/81177.html 

I have a little nutter myself and it can be very frustrating.  But I think (and I hope it is not just wishful thinking), that it must do some good. 

Bagpipe

Spent 15 minutes (3 lots of 5 mins) yesterday working on look at me and will continue doing so each day until he's got it.  We'll just have to see whether that helps next week at all at class.  Rather than giving in I've decided to go to two classes a week instead of the one - sound bizarre when I get so stressed out at one class (my OH thinks Im crackers!) but I so want to get it right and hope the more we do, the quicker he'll learn!  Will try the mackerel and spam next week as well seen as its been a hit for others - they're two of the few things we haven't tried so its worth a go.  Thanks again for the advice.  Thanks for the link as well bagpipe, in a lot of ways your little guy sounds so similar to mine, you just can't help loving the little devils though can you!!

I am not going to give you any tips other than:

Gundogs and some of sub-groups often, IME, act completely wild for ages and some then turn into premature geriatrics.

Pointers do not usually fall into this category IME.

Not all trainers have a lot of knowledge about some groups/sub-groups/breeds and their particular predispositions/idiosyncrasies.

The best behaved dogs in the class are not necessarily those that are the best trained, some switch off because of stress or boredom and outside in the fields they can be somewhat less robotic (a bit like school horses when they feel the turf or sand underneath their feet) :D

If it helps, when I went to my first class with a very wild gundog I was told that I "would never do anything with one of those" :D

How very wrong they were..............

So enjoy, do not panic, the best dogs and horses and people are those with a lot of spirit and who have a sense of fun..............

Tohme ,
I agree wholeheartedly with what you say about some trainers not understanding some breeds .....

when my girl is getting bored and not responding to me I take her and tie her to the post and leave  her watch all the other enjoying themselves in class for a good ten minutes or so ...its amazing the difference when we get back into the lesson she will really work for me as she doesnt like to be excluded!!!

Roni

Rachael
Stick in there and you WILL get results get past the teenage hooligan stage and you,ll be so glad you persevered.
There are very few people who,s dogs were born good and many people myself included feel like giving up  quite often I have seen this happen and six months later they arrive back at training class with ten times the problems they had to start with, and the people who stayed and did not give up have done really well.
I had a monster of a pup who will be three years old in a week at times I totally despaired of ever getting through to her now whilst she is by no means perfect we do enjoy our training and she is a different dog to the raving loony she once was
good kluck with your boy
Sharon