LOL Barbara I should habe added a TIC :D

I would like to keep some people from breeding ever ;) the ones whose products turn up in the rescue kennels I took back one of mine at 8 years old A good breeder will take back an unwanted dog at any age of course & if you haven't got the room etc to do this IMHO you should not be breeding

For what it's worth Jayne, I don't breed.  And I think quite a few others here don't either....

I do show and work my dogs though.  If I have a dog which has achieved qualifications in working or showing which I consider would make them an asset to the breed, then I will consider breeding.  All mine are hip scored even though, so far, I don't breed.  This is in case, in the future, they achieve something which makes me want to breed from them, and also for information and for the database the KC holds on the lines they are from - in case someone wants to breed from their brother or sister or re-mate their sire or dam.  In other words, for the good of the breed.

For what it's worth Jayne, I don't breed.  And I think quite a few others here don't either....

I do show and work my dogs though.  As soon as I have a dog I think is worth breeding from, then I will breed.

This is exactly what I did as well. Took me 23 years before I had a bitch I felt was good enough to warrant breeding from. :)

I think some people round here just don't want other breeders on their turf

As someone who has bred an average of 1.25 puppies a year for the past 25 yrs in a completely different breed, obviously I don't want competition :rolleyes:

I do, however, have experience of a rescue L/C GSD & love the breed enough NOT to have any desire to add to the rescue problem.

<<I'm not sure anyone cares to be honest schnauzerseeker, I think some people round here just don't want other breeders on their turf >>

Honestly Jayne - your arrogance astounds me!

You posted for the first time, on 19th October, posing as a "first time breeder" - and now, you are setting yourself up as the fountain of all knowledge and encouragement for first time breeders:rolleyes:

I fully agree with Anwen's views - I breed when I want a puppy - not when someone else says "oh if you breed from her I'd like a puppy".

Bek - that is what a good breeder does.  Please, learn more about your breed - it takes a lot of time - check the lines that are way behind your bitch - nasty things can pop up 10 generations down the line, and you want to ensure that wherever possible you take all precautions against such happenings.

I would also suggest to new posters, that they look at the profiles of respondents to their posts - you can then check back on what people are saying - sometimes absolute twaddle is spouted with such conviction that one could almost believe that the moon is made of blue cheese!

Margot

Lokis Mum,

I haven't 'posed' as anything.  My dog has just had her (and my) first litter.  I bred cats for many years.  That's it.  I have never claimed to be anything I'm not. 

What you refer to as me 'setting myself up as the fountain of all knowledge and encouragement for first time breeders' I would say is a little inaccurate.  I was just giving my opinion.  It obviously isn't the same as yours, but that doesn't make it wrong.  I just see no reason why a lady with a white German Shepherd should not have a litter from her just because she is white!! 

Just out of interest, which faults should be perpetuated and which discouraged - in your personal opinion? :)

I think it's down to the individual.  Obviously if you want to show, then you need a dog worthy of showing.  If you don't, then it is down to personal preference.  I prefer moggies.  Joe, down the road, prefers persians.  Bek likes white German Shepherds.  You don't.  Does it matter?  Lots of people like white German Shepherds.  She has homes lined up for the babies, so what is the problem??

If you want a dog the size, shape, appearance, temperament and working instincts of a labrador then you go to a breeder whose labradors show these qualities. If you want a dog the size, shape, temperament and appearance of a GSD you go to a breeder whose stock excels in these points. If you're not bothered about quality you go to just anyone.

I prefer to leave the decision about which are important faults in a breed about which I know very little to the experts - the ones who know the reasons behind the original breed standard would be the obvious first choice.

But she wants a dog the size, shape, appearance, temperament of a white german shepherd.  That's what she's got.  She wants a litter.  She has homes for the babies.  She has done the health checks.  Please tell me what the problem is?

She plans doing exactly what backyard breeders and puppy farmers do.

lol you and Goldmali are a joke.  You still can't tell me the reason why.  Bek has a dog.  It is healthy.  She wants a litter.  She has homes ready.  What is the problem?  WHY does that make her the same as a puppy farmer?  I thought puppy farmers were people who bred and bred and bred for money.  No concern for the welfare of the animals.  No care for where pups are going.  Pups are generally brought up in outside kennels (as I know many of you do, but we won't go there), with little or no human contact.  I hardly think this is the same thing.  Do you?

Jayne, read this link and then tell me which you think is more reputable, bearing in mind that I don't know of any rescue centre with plenty of spaces ...

Having read all that (again) I still fail to see how you can say that Bek is as bad as a puppy farmer.  In fact your statement in that respect was quite ridiculous.  You know nothing of Bek or her dogs, or the way she is with them, apart from that her dog is white and is possibly having a litter. lol. 

For the record, my gsd meets all your boring show criteria (not that I care one way or the other, because she is a much loved family pet) and her father was white, as were many of the dogs in his pedigree.

For the record, my gsd meets all your boring show criteria (not that I care one way or the other, because she is a much loved family pet)

No she doesn't. She is longcoated.

I currently have 2 dogs that have done pretty well at shows (including several BOBs between them -no CCs in our breed until Crufts) and both of them are VERY MUCH loved family pets (as are my other ones of other breeds that I do not show). Why would they not be?

>You know nothing of Bek or her dogs, or the way she is with them,

No, which is why people can be unbiased, and see the bigger picture. Individuals aren't important - the breed is.

Perhaps you do know her, which is why you support her unethical plan?

lol you and Goldmali are a joke.

At last we can sleep well at night knowing we have a clear conscience. If that makes JG and me jokes, so be it! (And we have ALREADY many times before told you what's what.)

I have a clear conscience too thank you.

Would you mind telling me again then, or pointing me in the direction of one of the other threads where you have told me 'ALREADY many times' the actual specific reason why Bek should not have this litter - it is not enough to just say the dog is white.  I want to know WHY it is wrong because the dog is white.

As for me putting my Ragdoll to my British Shorthair, that's really none of your business.  I was just giving an example.  The litter was beautiful.  They looked like British Blues, and all went to lovely homes (all to friends and family), apart from one boy, which I kept.  I'm sure if you'd have seen them, even you would have said how lovely they were :-)

I have a clear conscience too thank you.

The words head and sand comes to mind. :rolleyes:

I want to know WHY it is wrong because the dog is white.

JG's link said it ALL. "Responsible breeders breed to improve the breed."

As for me putting my Ragdoll to my British Shorthair, that's really none of your business.

So why mention it, on a public forum? :rolleyes: All you've done is repeatedly lower people's estimation of you.

I'm sure if you'd have seen them, even you would have said how lovely they were :-)

My website says, when I talk about my RESCUED neutered moggies and several of my pet quality neutered pedigree cats: "A cat is a cat and I love them all". However that doesn't mean anyone should deliberately produce more crossbred animals. The people who took your deliberate crossbreeds could instead have give a home to a rescue that might otherwise have ended up being put to sleep -as they clearly did not want a purebred pet.

Sorry if this sounds harsh Jayneuk, I think most on here are talking about breeding - you seem to be talking about producing puppies :rolleyes:  As someone who came on here asking advice about aggression problems with a bitch you were breeding for the first time as an inexperienced breeder, I find it unbelievable that you can call knowledgeable and respected members (who are also breeders) a joke :rolleyes: The more you post your arguments, the more you appear to be the same as a puppy farmer yourself, the only difference being the number of litters you produce.

LOL, yes I remember it well.  I was told by certain members of this board that I had an 'aggressive dog' and some even suggested I should abort the pups and have my dog put down.  Luckily I didn't listen to them, and now have a beautiful healthy litter of 7 pups.  Mum is doing fine.  She displays what they call (in case you didn't know when I originially asked lol) resource guarding, as many (or all) dogs do instinctively.  It is fixable, and is in fact pretty much fixed already now she has had the pups.  She was very much worse at the time due to being in whelp.

Yes, I remember it too. Your bitch bit your son, and you said she'd "shown signs of aggression before, but not as bad as this."

Correct.  All over food.  Nothing else.  She isn't an "aggressive dog".

I would laugh if I found your actions funny - but I don't. 
Regardless, you yourself didn't know what the aggression problem was and yet still bred regardless If it was fixable why didn't you ensure it was fixed first :rolleyes:
It would appear that you simply produce puppies and moggies - I really feel for your puppy buyers.

I haven't bred cats for a very long time.

The reason I didn't fix it before was because I didn't see it as a problem until the episode when she was in whelp.  Before that she just used to growl sometimes if someone went to take a bone or something else edible from her.  Many dogs do this.  Hardly a reason not to breed from them - same as the dog being white lol.

Jayneuk, resource guarding is a common problem. 
I wouldn't agree that a bitch who has this disposition with her own family is suitable for breeding when her temperament should be

"Temperament. Steady of nerve, loyal, self-assured, courageous and tractable. Never nervous, over-aggressive or shy."
If she was steady of nerve and self assured, she wouldn't feel the need to resource guard.

If you had any knowledge and support to offer the new owners of these pups, you would have recognised the problem for what is was and dealt with it long before this.  This is typical of a puppy producer who has no idea of ethics or what breeding for the good of the breed entails.

"Temperament. Steady of nerve, loyal, self-assured, courageous and tractable. Never nervous, over-aggressive or shy."

"Over-aggressive" ???

Interesting wording there don't you think?

Anyway, luckily she is all those things and more  :-)

Good luck everyone.  I'm off this thread now.  It's boring isn't it lol.  We always go over the same things.  Good luck with your pups Bek.  I'm sure they'll be beautiful.

NO I DO NOT all health cheacks will be done if the hipscore is bad I WOULD NEVER BREED FROM THIS DOG will do anything for the puppies i produce even take them back if needs be will only go to excellent homes and i would be able to give advise if needs be i have had dogs all my life and am from a family of dog lovers ( my nan had a hearing dog we all support this charity)

Can I just say, what i feel started out as a fairly basic question has turned into a bit of a slanging match.

I do not offer any advice on breeding, pedigree dogs or any other animal.  To me Beks you asked a question and it is apparent that a lot of people disagree with what you want to do.  Some others support your right to breed from your dog. You have to remember that nobody on these boards knows you, how you do things etc etc, The person that knows whether or not you will be a good breeder is you, by what you have seen and read about, as you have to live with the results one way or another. 

Tan
Reply Edit ToDo

I bred cats for many years.
I just see no reason why a lady with a white German Shepherd should not have a litter from her just because she is white!!

Yes, just like you saw no reason not to deliberately breed moggies and deliberately breed together 2 totally different breeds of cat.......... :rolleyes:

What is the reason then?  Why shouldn't I have done that Goldmali?

What is the reason then?  Why shouldn't I have done that Goldmali?

If you do not even know why you should not produce crossbred animals deliberately, then that in itself is proof that you should not breed anything at all...........

Jayne, I've never bred GSDs, and it's been 6 years since I bred my last litter of my own preferrred breed; that doesn't prevent me knowing what's ethical and what's not! ;)

i never stated i wanted white pups just that i want to breed a white bitch yes i would want to keep one but that will not depend on colour but the one most suited to me and my other dogs

Bek, to get back to your original question about whether you'd be classed as a good or bad breeder if you bred from your bitch with the obvious breed fault, the way to prove yourself on the 'good' side would be to choose a stud for her who doesn't show that fault and who doesn't have that fault in his ancestry. This is the way to breed better animals, and is what 'good' breeders do all the time - they research and research pedigrees to find the faults lurking in the background so they can avoid them.

So choose a stud dog who not only is good health- and temperament-wise, but who also is of a standard colour and whose ancestors are also of standard colour.
:)

hello my names haley im 14 yrs old ,
                ive been reading about your puppys and i woundered weather you could give me some advice I have a pomeranian called elly, ilove her to bits . Shes jus coming up for five November 2006. I have been told that breeding a pom after 5 yrs old is dangerous. shes in her season at the moment and im really thinking about letting her have puppies. I thought because you have had some experience in puppies you may be able to give me some advice. as i said she means everything to me . I dont want to risk her. We have a stud dog lined up for this sunday (just to see him and to meet his owner ). Please could you write back as i really need some help quick. She is a nice size . alot bigger than other pomeranians. We have been told that she would have know trouble but im not so sure . Her mum had no trouble having her.????????
could you help?> what are the risks ??????? How many things are likely to go wrong????i dont want to lose her!
                   from haley

Haley - Please can you start your own thread with this?  If we all reply to you here, it will take this thread away from where it is now, and everyone still has lots to say to Bek...

how would i go about researching her pedigree

Go to google and type in one of the names on her pedigree - provided that all the line is KC registered, you should find the name on a database - you could even google in GSD pedigrees and find the relevant databases!

Hope this helps

Margot

Can I just say, what i feel started out as a fairly basic question has turned into a bit of a slanging match.

I do not offer any advice on breeding, pedigree dogs or any other animal.  To me Beks you asked a question and it is apparent that a lot of people disagree with what you want to do.  Some others support your right to breed from your dog. You have to remember that nobody on these boards knows you, how you do things etc etc, The person that knows whether or not you will be a good breeder is you, by what you have seen and read about, as you have to live with the results one way or another. 

Tan

i have tried this to no avail dont no where to turn next ( have talked to her breeder nothing bad in the line of breeding just liminted gene pool )but already no this have contacted stud dog owner haved asked her a few things just waiting for a reply.

WOW I feel exhausted after reading all of this, I had no idea women could be so catty. Poor bek has just asked for some advice and has practically been stoned to death in the street! Did all of you women/men who are making her out to be so awful do such detailed checks before you had children (human ones that is not of the puppy kind) did you go back 10 generations to make sure no one had ever had any diseases/bad body structure etc etc before you decided to have children? If we all did that nobody would ever have kids! My family has a history of cancer on my dads side - does that mean him and my mum were a bad match and shouldnt have 'mated'????

beau, dogs are not children.

We don't preserve "breeds" of people, we allow people to "mate" with who, where and when they want to mate.

We also don't effectively keep children as slaves and we give them the freedom to make their own choices too.

You can't compare dogs and children....

Do yo keep your dogs as slaves? I was trying to make a point. The whole idea of this website is for 'doggy' people to try help each other, but it doesnt really. I asked a question re another topic and one lady responded very helpfully but the rest are just after a slanging match which is ridiculous.

>I asked a question re another topic and one lady responded very helpfully but the rest are just after a slanging match

I've just read all your previous posts on other topics, and can't find a single slanging match.  

Many people do indeed have genetic tests if there's a family condition to ascertain the likelihood of any children inheriting it. If the risk is very high, many adopt instead.

However pets and children are different things. ;) Not many people produce children to sell!

I hope people dont sell children!! I just wanted to make a point, the point being that this site should be about helping one another an giving friendly advice but this is just slanging and its awful.

If it could be guaranteed that bek's bitch just had the one pup she wanted to keep for herself, there would be little problem. :) The problem arises with the other (possibly 9 or 10) puppies who'll need good homes. There's a large surplus of dogs over available homes, so it's only sensible to make sure any puppies produced are of excellent quality, and more likely to have long, healthy, happy lives.

Beau, people accept responsibilty for the chilrden that they produce - well most do! :(

People who produce puppies without knowing what is behind their dog, sell the puppies to unsuspecting families, who can have years of heartache and Vet's bills, as a direct result of the puppy producer's ignorance.

Breeding dogs isn't just about putting a dog and bitch together who look like the same breed.  Many problems skip a generation (or 2/3/4) before showing again, and if breeders don't have extensive knowledge of the genetics behind their bitch and the stud dog, they are passing on a time bomb to the puppy owners. :(

The fact that people breed randomly is why there are actually 10 times the number of documented Genetic diseases in people compared to dogs.  This has nothing to do with inbreeding either, which some people think is how genetic disease is caused.