Tohme all German GSDs are now also DNA profiled an excellent step forward after the Griffiths/Martin saga !

& the Breed Warden & SV Tattoist can report breeders who do not keep their dogs in good conditions

Yes I had forgotton about the DNA profiling.  The german system has lots we could learn from.........

LOL I only remembered because I've just booked my BC puppy's DNA tests & will be getting him profiled as well & IU've just been chatting to  my German GSD breeder friend  in Germany ;) :D

"However people must also think about joe bloggs who decides to have a litter because they want their dog to have babies .... these are the people adding to the numbers and quantities of dogs on the market, to start breedng is NOT as simple as this,"

Could not agree more with you, in my long winded way i was trying to say that.

Tanya

What she means Bek, is that her teeth should be dead level, ie the top not overhanging the bottom, nor the bottom out further than the top.  She should be the exact right height, and in proportion, ie as long as she is wide or whatever it is!  If you look at the show standard points (sorry don't know the correct term for them), there will be a great long list of how your dog "should" look.  Totally ridiculous if you ask me, and completely meaningless if you are not showing.  I would be more concerned about a sound temperement and no health problems.  Seems to me you are very responsible, and doing a grand job  :-)

Actually Jayne, you seem to be describing a pincer bite there, as in a normal scissor bite the top teeth will be just in front of the bottom teeth.

There are some pictures here which demonstrate the scissor bite ('normal occlusion') http://www.apbtconformation.com/teeth.htm

M.

Edited to add it's probably in the terminology that this is coming across incorrectly, but if it sounds that way to me, it probably will to the OP too.  Just noticed that site is a pit bull one LOL, was only chosen for its descriptions rather than a closet interest!

If you look at the show standard points (sorry don't know the correct term for them), there will be a great long list of how your dog "should" look.  Totally ridiculous if you ask me, and completely meaningless if you are not showing.

Why, shouldn't pet dogs be able to move properly and eat properly?? The breed standard is designed for the dog to be able to do its job.

Actually Jayne, no, I don't mean that at all! What you describe is a level or pincer bite, which is wrong for the GSD which, like the vast majority of breeds, should have a scissor bite, where the top teeth are slightly to the 'outside' of the lower teeth. Deviations in this can cause problems when the dog is eating, and misaligned teeth (due to the jaw being wrong) can actually make very painful holes in the roof of the mouth! :( So you can see that it's important for the dog's health that the mouth is correct.

Correct proportions are also very important - if a bitch is short in the body she can have trouble during pregnancy and whelping - again, something very important healthwise.

So hardly 'totally ridiculous and completely meaningless', but in fact vital if you want your bitch - and her puppies - to be healthy.

she has a good scissor bite and is slightly longer then she is tall

> I would be more concerned about a sound temperement

Is that why you bred from your bitch who was showing signs of aggression?

is this post to me if so my bitch has no signs of aggresion where did that come from

No, it was Jayneuk who had been having aggression problems with her bitch and bred from her.

i dont like the idea of importing a dog when you can get a nice example in this country as every one says there are all ready to may in rescue

Eh, no, you can't because the breed doesn't exist in the UK. What you can get here is non standard specimens of the GSD, not the FCI recognised breed of White Herding Dog.

here we go, this website comes in both Swedish and English, and does include the FCI standard:
http://home.swipnet.se/~w-60451/index2.htm

Sorry, I got the bite wrong.  See how easy it is lol.  It only has to be slightly out to be a "fault" though, doesn't it?  Far less out than would affect the dog's eating.  Obviously the dog has to eat and move properly, but please don't try to tell me that the show standards are just for that.  They are very precise, aren't they?  How does the height of the ears affect a dog eating or moving?  How does its tail affect it eating or moving?  How does its height affect it eating or moving?  How does its eye colour affect it eating or moving?  How does the colour of its coat affect it eating or moving?  Tell me, do you support the idea of "designer babies"?

The standards describe the 'ideal' dog for its purpose, which responsible breeders are striving towards, never away from.  Eye-colour affects expression - light-eyed dogs can look 'hard' and vicious - not safe in today's anti-dog society and the DDA. Height of ears doesn't come in it - where did you get that idea? Have you ever read the GSD Breed Standard?

What I don't support is the idea of puppies being randomly produced - I personally feel they're more important than that.

yes i have read the breed standard time and time again who do i ask to get an unclouded view of my bitch( i have sent off form for dna profile)

The reply about the breed standard was to Jayne, because she seems to have a very vague idea of what is required of a GSD. ;) I didn't for a moment think you hadn't read it, bek - any breeder will know their standard inside out!

To get unbiased opinions about your bitch you'll need to contact breed specialists. Are you a member of any GSD club?

no i am not ( am worried that they wont look past her colour )i no it is a fault

it states in breed standerd (link you posted) colour in itself is of secondary importance having no effect on chsracter or fitness fpr work

So do you plan to breed away from a 'highly undesirable' feature, aiming for a litter of standard-coloured puppies?

am not out to breed white pups i think my dog is of good standard and good charater if the best stud for my bitch was standard colour then so be it

Jayne (and Bek), am very much trying to keep this educational and generic, rather than judgemental and personal, so please take it in this spirit ...

The breed standards are the whole essence of the breed, both in looks and temperament.  Why would you want a German Shepherd if it didn't actually look like and act like one? - and why should puppy buyers who are looking for a particular breed not be entitled to buy one that will grow into a fair example, as very few pet owners will be able to make that judgement at 8 weeks.

A slight fault in one generation will probably get worse in the next generation ... and the next ... if it is not correctly identified. Nobody has said that the perfect dog exists - every one of them has faults, and I again re-iterate that the point is being able to identify those faults, evaluate their impact and choose a stud dog which excels where your bitch fails.

M.

It doesn't, but when you want a collie, you want it to look like  a collie, if a Boxer then to look like a Boxer.  If the breeders did not select for the correct characteristics then you would eventually get mongrels.

Now that is fine if you are happy or able to take pot luck.  Lots in the Dogs home to choose from, including pups.

With a pedigree dog you want to know what size it wil be what it will look like and the typical character and temperament to expect.

I love dogs generally, but there are many breeds I wouldn't want to live with, and I am sure my breed would not suit some people, but with a typical specimin bred from good parents the pups will vary very little from desired characteristics.

I have seen an elderly lady struggle with her Yorkie, about the size of a large Cairn with a light fawn topcoat and tan points, interstingly the person she bought the unregistered pup from also had Llhasa Apso's.  Now she wanted a Yorkie as that was the dog she was used to and could manage, yet this one who is at least 4 times the size of a Yorkie gives her difficulties.

Breed standards are rarely absolutely specific about less important features, and only specific about the most important ones that make it the breed it is.  Rarely will you see mentioned exact ear size for example, and there is enough leeway in many points for small differences in interpretation.

Would you still think a dog was a GSD if it had Hanging Ears, a short Muzzle, and was 16  or 30 inches tall?

I'm in awe of those who can read a breed standard a few times and have just one example of the breed & recognise their dogs faults & virtues immediately because there's quite a lot of judges out there who cannot comprehend basic construction still!!!!!!!

Yes I remember many many years ago when I was about to go to a show for the very fist time -with a guinea pig. :) I read the breed standard and thought it fitted mine perfectly! It wasn't until a few shows later, a few judges and viewing others that I realised it wasn't quite like that.

The first hombred cat I showed I also believed was quite good. At her first show she was placed 3rd -in a class of 2. :D

i no the view of my dog will be clouded but have read breed standard time and time again have even taken to measuring her(she is not so keen on that idea) my sister has a black and tan pup( mum white dad black) and the breeder thought she was of good standard who do i turn to, soon as i say she is white every one tells me am crazy to think of breeding her

Even if she was recommended colour...GSD rescue is probably choc-a-bloc with 'correctly' coloured dogs looking for loving homes of all ages.

you have really answered your own original question bek.
if everyone says you would be crazy to breed a litter of white gsd then i would tend to believe them!

Hi Bek,

Have only quickly scanned this thread so forgive me if I have missed something :)  Putting aside for the moment that your bitch is a non-standard colour, there are a great many things to be considered when evaluating whether an animal should be bred from.  Reading the breed standard alone and attempting to make direct comparisons with it and a dog is not sufficient - even the most experienced breeder and judge of another breed would not simply read the standard of an alternative breed and assume (unless totally arrogant) that without prior in depth study of multiple examples of their non-specialist breed that they had anything like a true understanding of breed "type". 

Even starting off with a top drawer example of the GSD, to produce the esential breed traits in progeny also requires knowing all the faults and virtues of the breeding pair and their immediate ancestors.    I have seen quite literally thousands of GSDs in the show and working rings at both home and abroad and would not consider myself to be in a position to evaluate a single specimen adequately - how can you?  regards, Teri 

I dont see the problem with breeding a white GSD with all the health tests done and with a suitable result, and even better having homes lined up thats more than some so called 'good' breeders have. The white GSD has its own standard in America just like American Bulldogs do and people breed those over here so why not a good tempremented white GSD. You hear alot about white GSDs being awful tempremanted due to bad breeding. Now here you are wanting to breed 2 good tempremented dogs and all these people jump down your throat for being what i class as a 'good' breeder. I breed working type border collies they arnt to the breed standard but they are intelligent and have far better temprements than some of the very in-bred show types. There are white GSD breeders on champdogs breeders lists why not give them a e-mail and talk to them for some support they may be more under-standing that people on here have been.

The American Bulldog is not a recognised by the American Kennel Club.

UKC then hey i know what im on about lol

Many countries have several different registries. Not all of the non-national ones have any validity. ;)

There are actually two organisations using those initials, one is a bonafide show organising and title givign registry, and the other is a puppy farm registry.  Those who take part in the events of the first are usually AKC registered first.

Ok, here goes.

Most of the people on this site are pedigree dog enthusiasts.  That means they like/own/breed a particular breed and they care for the health, welfare and future of that breed.  Part of caring for a breed's future involves being responsible about which dogs are bred to which. 

Like someone has already said here, if we stopped trying to preserve breeds tomorrow and just mated any breeds together, pretty soon we would have something that looks like a browny/blacky mutt and THAT'S ALL.  No breeds.  No different sizes.  No different colours.  No different functions.  No different hair lengths.  Just a browny/blacky mutt.

Now, all power to those people who like browny/blacky mutts, but let's preserve choice here people.  If we condone this, what else is going to slip in?

For the future of breeds we need to protect them and make sure that only dogs which are 1. GOOD SPECIMENS of their breed as judged by an independent, non-biassed breed specialist, 2.  MEET ALL HEALTH CRITERIA and 3.  HAVE GOOD TEMPERAMENTS and preferably 4.  have showing OR working qualifications to their name are bred from.

In order for people to know if they have a "Good specimen", they need to go to shows.  Preferably to take part in them, if not to try to speak to the people in their breed and ask them to go over their dog.  Bek, even if you had a standard colour GSD and were asking this question, this is what I would be saying to you:  Go to a show and show your dog.  Then you will know, from your success (or failure) in the show ring, whether or not she should be bred from. 

However, you are refusing to go to shows because you claim that you know the outcome already - and that you will get no where.  Now, call me silly (or worse), but if you think you would get (consistently) no where, then you have no leg to stand on if you want to breed your dog.  Because that is the sole determinent of what your breed wants for its future. 

I am saying: You do not have what the UK GSD community want for the future of their breed, so if you want to be a responsible "breeder", you will not breed this dog. 

There might be some exceptions made if your dog had proved herself, working in some way - if she had qualifications in agility, obedience, schutzhund, working trials, for example.  In that case - if she had other talents which MIGHT benefit the breed, it MIGHT be worth breeding from her.  However, from what you have said so far, she does not.

I have one more question: You say you have a stud lined up and mention his health tests.  Is he white too?

Finally, I think the way forward is pretty clear for you.  You need to decide which is more important:  Do you want to breed GSDs?  Or do you want to own white GSDs?

If you want to breed GSDs, then I think you should have this bitch spayed and you should set about really researching lines and getting a standard coloured bitch puppy from a really good source, maybe even importing from abroad. 

If you want to own white GSDs, then again, I think you should have this bitch spayed and find yourself a really nice white puppy from as good a source as you can.  There are more than enough white GSDs born every year for the number of homes waiting for them and there's no need to add to the number of dogs alive today UNLESS you are breeding to better the breed.  (Which you can't from a white GSD.)

That's my bit said and done with!

PS - I just wanted to ask other GSD people - what happens if a white GSD is bred to a standard colour GSD - what are the chances of the puppies being white or standard colour??  Is it possible that bek could breed her dog to a standard colour GSD and then not even get a white pup?  (Which is what she wants?)

And I'm assuming it would be bad for her to breed to a white, for health reasons?

I dont think there are the same health issues with breeding white to white as there are say merle to merle. I knew of a litter that was a sable to a white there were 3 sables very light sables a standard and 2 whites. But i guess it also depends on what colours are down the generations. Look up icemead german shepherds they breed white longcoats.

onetwothree - To answer your question, my 'standard colour' GSD is the product of a 'standard colour' dam and a white sire.  She was one of 11 and they were all 'standard colour'.

Also onetwothree - without reading all through this thread again, did she actually say she wanted a white one from the mating?  I thought she just said she wanted to breed from a white one.  Did she say what colours she wanted from it?  I didn't think she did.  Might be wrong of course.

She was asked, but she hasn't answered. :(

So - perhaps bek will breed and then not even get the white puppy she wants?  I thought I read somewhere that she "just wanted a white puppy", but maybe I imagined it - don't have time to read the whole thread now!

icemead gsd are from same line as my bitch

somewhere on this thread i have become confused.

beks has said

"it is classed as highly undesirable. i think they are lovley and the breeder i got mine off has been breeding gsds sine 1960 and whites since the 1980s so each to there own.

am not out to breed white pups i think my dog is of good standard and good charater if the best stud for my bitch was standard colour then so be it"
So Is the issue, she should not breed because the mother is white or she should not breed because the puppies maybe white or she shold not breed because the breed standard does not recognise white as a colour.

I am so confused do you want white pups beks or just want pups?

I'm not sure anyone cares to be honest schnauzerseeker, I think some people round here just don't want other breeders on their turf  ;-)

Jayne i couldnt of said that better myself !

As far as I am aware there haven't ben any current GSD breeders replying on this thread.  Moonmaiden certainly bred and worked GSD, but does not presently breed them owning a Toy breed and a young ISDS Border Collie.

& an all german bred rescue GSD ;) I am closely involved with a german friend who does breed GSDs http://www.von-der-koenigin.de/ who I sent her first ever dog(a BC) This lady is an qualified SV schutzhund judge BTW hence my knowledge of the rules re breeding GSDs in germany

Oops I also forgot to add I am actively involved in GSD rescue(just had a call just now from someone wnating rid of their 15 week old LC GSD(didn't ask the colour)from a well know puppy farm GSD breeder) & the lady running the rescue very occasionally breeds a litter of health tested health tested etc "normal"GSDs to continue her bloodlines

I just meant that you were not of course trying to keep others from breeding to keep a market for yourself :D  Your knowledge of the breed is very rounded being from both the show and workign perspectives.