every one says there are 3 types of breeders good breeders who are breeding for the better of the breed, back yard breeders who breed for pin money and puppy farmers(wont even go there). i just wanted to no where i fit in to this, i want to breed my bitch(she will have all health checks she is 3 so not to young) but (yes there is a but) she is a wgsd i hate to think that i would be classed as a back yard breeder just because of her colour

does that mean she is not KC registered? Do you have potential owners lined up wanting your puppies? and which catagory do you think you come under- having mentioned the three? only you know the answer to that one!

she is kc reg and yes i do have owners lined up and good ones.i think i am a good breeder the pups would be well placed and i wouldtake any back if there were ever any problems

>good breeders who are breeding for the better of the breed

The breed can only be improved if the animals bred from fit the breed standard. If they don't ...

>i would be classed as a back yard breeder just because of her colour

you already know the answer :(

I dont now much about GSDs but my friend does and she wouldnt own a wgsd as that colour is a fault.  I suppose it falls into the same category and breeding a white dobermann and I know what I would say on THAT subject.  Sorry if it isnt what you want to hear.

it is classed as highly undesirable. i think they are lovley and the breeder i got mine off has been breeding gsds sine 1960 and whites since the 1980s so each to there own.

Of course all your breeder's dogs (and yours too) have been hip-scored, the males haemophilia tested, etc?

Good breeders breed successfully health-tested animals within the standard.
Backyard breeders breed untested (or tested but with poor results) animals within the standard.
Puppy farmers breed untested (or failed) animals with no regard for the standard.

yes they are all health tested and have good hipscores (under 19)and excellent temperments MY BITCHES BROTHER is at stud he has been hip scored and is hemo clear

Well, that's a plus. :) What about your own bitch's score?

But it doesn't alter the fact that, however lovely they are, they don't fit the breed standard - which was drawn up by breed experts (not the Kennel Club!), with each clause having a reason.

Edit: I assume your bitch isn't descended from the white one who was a known epileptic?

she has not been scored yet but she will be before she has any pups

You would be wise to do that before wondering how you would be viewed as a breeder by the GSD-loving public. :)

Of course breeding from a white German Shepherd does not make you a bad breeder.  You are going about it in a responsible way - having health checks, getting homes lined up, waiting for the right age etc etc.  How can the fact that the dog is white make you wrong for breeding from her?  lol.  Obviously the pups won't be able to be shown, but there are plenty of us still out there (thank god) who just want a dog to be a pet  :-)

I once put my ragdoll girl to my cream british shorthair stud cat.  They produced the most beatiful babies, one of which I kept - Rupert.  He was the most adorable cat ever, and my friend for many years  :-)

I once put my ragdoll girl to my cream british shorthair stud cat.  They produced the most beatiful babies, one of which I kept - Rupert.  He was the most adorable cat ever, and my friend for many years

As could a rescued moggy have been from the local shelter -or a purebred cat. :rolleyes:

Very true Goldmali.  I'm glad we agree :-)

I once put my ragdoll girl to my cream british shorthair stud cat.

Why?

Are Ragdolls allowed by the GCCF to be crossed with BSH to open up the genepool?  I don't think so? 

If that is the way to go I'm going to mate my Sh.Ch. Munster bitch to a Springer Sh.Ch. dog, I'm sure they will be lovely looking dogs but useless for anything other than pets!

Just to correct a misconception in Liisa's post - whether you agree with breeding white GSDs or not, they are not albino and do not suffer from the same health issues as the white Dobermann, so not the same issues here. :D

M.

My own take would be that deliberate breeding of faulty animals is not improving the breed.

If white GSD breeders are looking to have them recognised as a seperate breed and are looking towards expanding the gene pool with health, and temperament tested (many of the whites have been imbred on dogs with poor temperament), and are working with each other in a framework like a breed club then to me there is some justification.

With our modern knowledge of genetics and knowing that the reason for many of the problems we have today was the small number of founder animals in any breed, then in practical terms developing a new breed with a healthy gene base is something next to impossible in modern times when huge kennels and huge numbers of pups cannot be responsibly bred and culled to establish a breed (where would all the not good enough pups go when GSD have plenty in rescue already).

For this reason alone I am not a proponent of new breeds.  We have enough on our plates to stop many existing ones from becoming extinct, or to keep viable and healthy.

There is no practical need for another white shepherd dog.  If you like white dogs there is plenty of choice in established breeds, some in great need of enthusiasts, like the Maremma sheepdog.

it is not the fact that i just want a white dog i love gsds any colour and at first did not want a white dog but my husband did so we brought our first one nearly 6 years ago it was love from that day on

So why do you want to breed? There's nothing wrong with wanting to own a "white" (to me they look the same colour as my breed which is classed as wheaten ) , but I don't know how anyone can justify breeding from a dog with such an obvious fault, in a numerically strong breed. If you love the breed in any colour, why not just buy a good example of the correct colour?
I wouldn't call you a bad breeder - just irresponsible in adding to the number of GSDs being bred (13000+ in 2004) without making an attempt to improve the breed.

If you love the breed in any colour, why not just buy a good example of the correct colour?

Or why do the fans of white GSDs simply not import FCI registered White Herding Dogs and aim to get them recognised here -after all it is the same breed which was turned into a separate breed with slighly different breed standard.

i dont like the idea of importing a dog when you can get a nice example in this country as every one says there are all ready to may in rescue

you can get a nice example in this country

A nice example of what bek?  A nice example of a dog that doesn't conform to the breed standard?
Good breeders who are breeding for the betterment of the breed are breeding to the breed standard!

A nice dog she probably means lol.  You know, a dog.  A thing you take for a walk, and cuddle, and play with, and look after.  Not an object you take to shows, and measure its ears, and its tail, and make sure it is the right colour, and the right size, and the right shape.

If everyone bred just what they liked jayneuk, and not to the breed standard, then within a generation there would be no recognisable breeds!  It's the breed Clubs and their supporters that strive to maintain each breed so that the next generation have the benefit.

I'm not surprised by your comments.  It was only recently that you posted
"  By jayneuk Date 19.10.05 11:21 GMT Hi, 
I have just mated my bitch for the first time.  I am very unexperienced "

I would hope that OP will listen to the experienced breeders on this board.

If anyone's just after 'a dog' there are hundreds in rescue. If anyone wants a particular breed, they should go to a specialist, who's a member of at least one breed club and who breeds health-tested dogs as close as possible to the standard.

A GSD (for example) which isn't the right shape (one of your suggestions) isn't going to look like a GSD! People who like GSDs want a dog that looks like one!

I know where there are 15 beautiful GSDs in rescue several white & several longcoats, all bred by people who are not interested in the breed only the money they recieve from selling them. When each one of the 15 is rehomed there are more than 15 others waiting to come in. :(

None of these are particularly well bred of course but it doesn't stop them being lovely dogs

I think you misunderstood what Goldmali meant Bek :)

I've always thought it a shame you can't show White GSDs, I think they are gorgeous. Presumably you don't get health problems unless you breed white to white? If all health checks are carried out on both parents, and you are sure that your queues of people waiting for puppies won't suddenly disappear, then surely it's not particularly irresponsible, if perhaps unnecessary?

A friend of mine had an accidental mating from a mismarked dog and 3 out of 4 puppies were show potential, one is placed regularly at champ level, so I would never rule out a dog purely on colour.

you can show them with the white and long coat shepherd socitey. and yes i did meen a nice dog (sorry i type faster then my brain goes).

i think that they can be shown? there colour is highly undesirable but not dissqualifing( dont no if i spelt that right). dont no how far one would get

I think it safe to say that they would invariably be placed last.

i no a lady that showed her wgsd twice she was placed both times but she stopped showing because of other peoples attitudes

The ladt that showed her "white"GSD was placed because she was the only dog present under a non specialist judge. If I ever had a "white" GSD entered under me I'm afraid it would not be placed even if it was the only dog present it would however strangely still be BOB if there were breed classes because the KC rules require a BOB to be declared . As there were no other GSD people present it must have been the other breed exhibitors who passed comments

I am new. dont have a dog (yet). But i will put my two pennies worthin anyway.

I dont think that all KC associated  breeders are  "good Breeders", puppy farmers are a breed unto themselves. Back yard breeder, whats that. If someone has a dog, that is healthy, good temprament and they have proper, homes lined up for potential puppies whats the problem. I want a dog to love, care for have as a companion ect ect.  IMHO just because a dog  conforms to a breed standard does not make it a "good" dog. Not all  homes are suitable for all dogs, so to me its a matter of owner and dog being suited. I would love to own a Border Collie, hundreds of KC breeders out thier who would sell me one, all would conform to the collie breed standard,probably have excellant pedigrees in showing/agility/obediance  but the key to the border collie is not its KC standard, but more the standard of care I could offer to it. IE could I keep a working dog busy all day long. the answer is no.   I do  not believe that everyone who breeds of puppies, wand who  claim to enhance the breed do so, thier are obviously those who do, but if all breeders, whatever name you wantto give them, Puppy farmers, back yard or  bonefide kc were more responsible in how many  they bred, and who they sold them to we would not have the amount of dogs in homes looking for  new homes.  Do I thinkyou should breed form your dogs, dont know, only you know about the homes they are going to ect ect. Do they conform to breed standard dont know, but I know I would rather have a dog with a dodgy colour, a pair of ears that are not quite right or a tail that does not carry quite high enough, as long as it was sound in temprament and has no health issues.  I think again imho that it is the health and temprament of the dog that is important and not the " doggy show" frills that matter.

Went a bit off track thier sorry.

Tanya:rolleyes:

  By bek Date 04.01.06 14:57 GMT you can show them with the white and long coat shepherd socitey. and yes i did meen a nice dog (sorry i type faster then my brain goes).

yes but you can also show cross breeds at companion dog shows but you wouldnt set out to deliberatly breed a cross breed (well some people would).... 

in response to schnauzerseeker...  of course not all KC accredited breeders (i presume that is what you mean) are not good, I can name a few....  you are correct in what you say about breeders not being responsible in the quantity of puppies they breed, I know a few of those too.

However people must also think about joe bloggs who decides to have a litter because they want their dog to have babies .... these are the people adding to the numbers and quantities of dogs on the market, to start breedng is NOT as simple as this, it is an art form/science, breeders study the pedigrees, , health test, study what dogs are producing what, study the genetics behind certain lines and so on and so on, this can take years and months and THEN they will decide on a suitable stud, its not juts a case as phone mr so and so down the road with a stud dog because he is close, my next stud is from the USA, did I decide that in the blink of an eye, is it on the doorstep... no, it has cost me alot of money visiting the dog etc etc etc and more money to be spent on more visits this year...  where does ths money come from, my wages, not breeding.  I also helped whelp several litters before breeding my own litter and it took me nearly 2 years to decide on a stud dog.....

If people want a pet dog for a companion then they should go to a responsible reputeable breeder who knows what they are doing NOT mr and mrs smith on so and so street that thought it would be cute to have a litter. 

ooops rambling again .... :-)

i have not decided this on a whim my bitch is 3 already have been thinking about this for years. dont you think if i just wanted pups i would breed her with my own male( yes i have 5 year old wgsd male entire) and with out hipscores but i am doing it propley with every thought for my dog ahd any pups she MIGHT have i to have not chosen the easiest stud dog but one that complements my bitch. i am going into this with my eyes wide open

i to have not chosen the easiest stud dog but one that complements my bitch

What are your bitch's virtues and faults bek and what did you look for in the stud dog?

she is of a good standard but she has 2 little faults ( not colour)  her lips are a little slack and her eyes are not as dark as they could be so i chose a dog with a good mouth and eyes. looks silly when you see it written down. these are her only faults in my oppinion but i am no expert by any means. the stud dog has a hip score of 13 and is hemo clear

Her bite? Her size? Proportions?

sorry dont understand that

Exactly.

Please somebody explain - I'm on my way out.........

yes please some one explain

I think what Val is suggesting is that if you don't understand JG's query, then you probably don't understand whether your bitch is correct or fails in these departments ...

I don't have your breed, but I would know from the question that your bitch should be 22-24 inches at the withers, slightly longer than she is tall, with a scissor bite.  Yes, every dog has faults, the difference between breeders is often the ability to recognise those faults and to plan a breeding programme round them.

For what it's worth, I actually think that white and long-coat GSDs are so well established in this country that they are almost viewed as breeds anyway! Not keen on the whites myself, although a good one (very rare) is stunning, but I like a nice long-coat.  So, to answer your original question, my personal view would be that if your bitch is of a good standard, has no major faults, is hip scored below the BMS and you are using a fully tested male (hips and haemophilia tested), then I personally think that's not a major issue.  I know many people wouldn't agree, but that's my view.

If a hip score is around the 19 area on your bitch, I'd want a male with a much lower score as well.  Particularly in whites, going back on the old Blinkbonny lines as many of them do, hip history is abysmal.

M.

Will add another post, rather than edit, to ensure it is seen ...

Note that in my reply I did say if your bitch is of a good standard.  It sounds as if you are trying to go about things the correct way, so if you do go ahead please talk to someone who can help you interpret the standard and evaluate your bitch properly, and choose a stud dog who will suit her.

M.

Does she conform to the Kennel Club breed standard for the GSD>  She has one big fault already a highly undesireable colour, so what virtues outweigh this and make her more worthy to be bred from than a properly coloured bitch.  There is hardly a shortage of GSD breeding stock that her genes are vital to the breeds continuance or improvement.

As has ben said there are lots o f nice dogs in rescue centres needing homes, so unless your litter enhances the breed, why breed from her?

Maybe someone should explain. Seems to me, be she right or wrong Bek is only trying to find out if she is doing the right thing.  Even experienced breeders had to start somewhere, and at least she is asking the questions here, not just doing

Tanya

ps sorry bek i would explain, but have no idea what they are talking about as I have no connections with breeding at all

This http://www.dog-play.com/breedercomparison.htm should explain what we are talking about, basically there are three sorts of breeder, often the second type (in this article called a backyard breeder) is the person that for various reasons wants to breed a litter, it may be sentimental , financial, or just misguided, as rarely will they know enough about how it should really be done and the responsibilities. 

Sadly it is actualy this category (as it can be quite a grey area) that can cause the most harm to the quality and health of a breed, more due to lack of knowledge and not understanding the long term consequences. 

Out an out Puppy Farmers are actually quite easy to spot and no-one would really support that kind of breeding.

Just found that that website has been reorganised and the guide is now at this addy http://www.dogplay.com/GettingDog/breedercomparison.htm

All the articles on the site regarding breeding are food for thought and cover a lot of ground being covered here, Though you have to bear in mind they are slanted to the US situation, but most applies equally anywhere. http://www.dogplay.com/Breeding/index.html

It is unfortunate the in the UK GSDs are not subject to the rigourous testing and identification system that is compulsory in Germany.

ie  be Tattood, Hip scored, have a BH,qualification (temperament and control test) and an AD (endurance test) or SchH1/IPO1, (control/agility and manwork test) Kkl.1,2, (be classified as recommended or suitable for breeding) and a Show grade min.G

In the UK one can breed any dog with any dog with no tests at all, let alone the right colour .........

Fortunately for those of us that want a dog that fulfils function and form the PETS has enabled us to source stock from outside the UK...........

contrary to what some posters appear to think the reason we like dogs to meet the breed standard in conformation and looks etc is because doing so means that it can do the job for which it was originally designed :rolleyes: not just so it can stagger around a ring a couple of times a month!