*I really don't think the public can do more than accept the recommendations as being devised by a proper concensus of opinion between the experts in that area. *

Where is any concensus by experts thats its OK for dogs to be vax twice for Pi, when did that happen

The manufacturers have to get their drugs licenced for use in the way they are recommending, applying for the licence means the reseach will be examined by the relevent drug board, clearly this one has passed and deemed safe to adminster in the way prescribed.  Licensing is peer reviewed too, if the board got it wrong or further evidence was produced to say this was not safe, changes would be made.

Intervet state only a single dose of Pi is needed annually

Nobivac Pi:  Dosage and administration
  
 

Nobivac Pi
Dosage and administration
One ml solvent (Nobivac Lepto 2 (canine leptospirosis vaccine), Nobivac Rabies or Nobivac Solvent) must be used to reconstitute the freeze-dried Nobivac Pi vaccine. After reconstitution, the vaccine should be used within 30 minutes.
One ml of the reconstituted vaccine should be given by subcutaneous injection.
Sterile equipment should be used for administration but avoid contamination of vaccine with traces of disinfectant or spirit.
Primary course vaccination
- Before the age of 12 weeks:
Two vaccinations, each with a single dose: the first vaccination from the age of 8 weeks onwards and the second vaccination 2 - 4 weeks later.
- From the age of 12 weeks onwards: single vaccination, with one dose per animal.
Onset of immunity: 4 weeks after vaccination.
Booster vaccination
Annually with a single dose.

That is the recommendations for the s/c injection Christine and an annual booster is obviously all that is needed for that level of cover but as I have said I expect the manus think those exposed to KC are at more risk than than.  If you think they are exceeding the licenced cover of this vaccine why don't you report them to the BVA.  I am sure, though, that they understand what risk is being looked at and what the appropriate cover is and have obviously convinced the licensing board.

*I expect the manus think those exposed to KC are at more risk than than. *

Isabel you`re not in a position to speak for Intervet :)

*If you think they are exceeding the licenced cover of this vaccine why don't you report them to the BVA. *

I would if I lived in the UK. Who knows, maybe some folk have read this thread & will do just that :)

Equally, Christine, you're not in a position to speak for Schultz. :)

*Equally, Christine, you're not in a position to speak for Schultz*

And nor have I J/G. What I have done is printed on here what he has said & is on the internet

>Isabel you`re not in a position to speak for Intervet

"I expect........."  I think that is perfectly clear that is just my thoughts after applying a little logic to the subject :), by no stretch of the imagination can it be seen as a quote from Intervet unless they are I :)

>I would if I lived in the UK

Oh come, come now, Christine, that hasn't stopped you emailed people all round the globe to ask questions on this subject :P     BVA

*Oh come, come now, Christine, that hasn't stopped you emailed people all round the globe to ask questions on this subject*

What has it got to do with who I email & topics I may or not discuss???????????????

Complaining to the BVA is quite a different thing

It's got nothing to do with who you email or what you talk about it's got everything to do with you appearing to say you couldn't report something yourself because you were not in the UK when you have mentioned before that you use email.
Are you saying that you don't want to query the licencing of the product because it does not apply to you being outside the UK in which case that has never stopped you bringing your issues about UK vaccine protocol to us on a UK based board :) There doesn't seem to be any UK posters on this board that seem to have an issue with the licensing of this vaccine apart from maybe Spender, perhaps they will report it if they think it necessary.

>There doesn't seem to be any UK posters on this board that seem to have an issue with the licensing of this vaccine apart from maybe Spender, perhaps they will report it if they think it necessary.

Yes, I do think that owners should be advised that they are doubling up on PI by having Lepto PI and KC when following these practises annual protocol for vac.  If they still want to go ahead, then fine.  I would have said that was fair and reasonable.

"These" practices??, so far we have heard of only one practice having a annual KC protocol, yours.  Everybody elses seems to be only offering when requested.  My vaccination certificate lists what is included in all the vaccines available including the Kennel Cough just as it does on the link I gave to Intervets site, it's not a secret (although I think this fact may have got muddled by the little red herring about KC being included in the Pi ;)) so I'm not sure why it is necessary for a vet to offer the information verbally as well, we don't tend to ask them to list all the other components verbally or do we? ;)
My point about the reporting the concerns to the licensing board was regarding whether it should be licenced for use in this way, I take it you are happy that it is you just want people to know :)

>"These" practices??, so far we have heard of only one practice having a annual KC protocol, yours.

There are 2 that I know of so far and a number of people who have commented on it.  They commented even more when they realised that their dogs had a double dose of PI.  

>so I'm not sure why it is necessary for a vet to offer the information verbally as well, we don't tend to ask them to list all the other components verbally or do we?

Maybe you don't, but I like to play an active role in my dog's health and others I know have expressed a wish to do the same.   :-)

Well they haven't commented on here yet :)
Does it make you lots better informed if they tell you verbally rather than given in written form them?  I'm happy with my written information, I do tend to read everything my vet gives me and from their point of view it is all there and they don't have to remember every little thing or wonder if they have already told you something, they can concentrate on examining my dog and I appreciate that it is probably making consultations shorter and therefore costs are kept down for me.

My dog's health comes first, not costs.   :-)

I want good health and value.  I certainly wouldn't put cost first.  Are you saying then that you don't think all the information in written form is good enough?  Don't you think that gives the vet the opportunity to concentrate on examining your dog which seems to me more beneficial to his health that adding verbal information to stuff that is allready written?

>I want good health and value.  I certainly wouldn't put cost first.  Are you saying then that you don't think all the information in written form is good enough?

It's good enough for me but perhaps not for the average Joe Public dog owner who never thinks to read this type of info; research and query.  How many would agree to their vet giving their dog a double dose of PI if they knew?  On saying that, Lepto PI and KC given at the same time appears to be much more value for money than paying for Lepto only.  For example, Lepto cost me £24.21 while my colleague got Lepto PI and KC for £28.00 & some odds in pense  :rolleyes: Value for money, eh?  Cheaper in bulk, :rolleyes:  I'd rather safeguard my dog's immune system by giving him a vaccination programme specifically tailored to him/her and giving the minimum vaccinations necessary.  But that's me.

>Don't you think that gives the vet the opportunity to concentrate on examining your dog which seems to me more beneficial to his health that adding verbal information to stuff that is allready written?

I'm quite happy paying for treble consultation time if necessary to ensure my dog is properly examined and my vet explores all possible avenues of options/vaccination/treatment with me.  :-) After all, it's my dog and the responsibility for his welfare lies with me, not the vet.

Anyone who doesn't read a fairly simple list of what is included in each vaccination is not likely to be the sort of person to want further explanation from the vet, but I'm sure if like you, they would rather they go through it all verbally I'm sure they would be happy to oblige. But doubling up on verbal and written information routinely wouldn't be everyones choice if they feel they have perfectly understood it in the written form so the poor vet is going to disappoint somebody what ever way they choose isn't he? :)
I'm not going to try to justify your vets decision to include KC automatically, as far as I can see he is working outwith any recommendations but we don't really know his rationale, have you asked his yet if there has been a particular problem locally?  But what does seem apparant is we have not had a rush of posters stating their vets have taken the same line so I think it is a isolated occurance, perhaps you might consider changing your vet if he does not convince you his decision is justified.

Yes indeed, JG and Isabel, I can certainly see your point there.  

>I'm not going to try to justify your vets decision to include KC automatically, as far as I can see he is working out-with any recommendations but we don't really know his rationale, have you asked his yet if there has been a particular problem locally?

No problem locally confirmed, there is a protocol I think but it's up to the practise to adopt as they see fit.  I'm just waiting on further confirmation. 

From the evidence on this board, on TV programmes, and (last but not least) the people I talk to in the street, 'the average Joe Public' hasn't the foggiest idea of how a dog should be treated. I've known people who thought that dogs only got worms if they ate earthworms! :rolleyes: Some of them aren't even literate, so written information is no better than toilet paper for them. :( To be perfectly honest, their dogs are probably infinitely healthier if the vet calls them in once a year for a check and a booster than otherwise.

Some time ago, two large vet practices near me (one which I used to have as my own) changed away from Nobivac when the 3 year manufacturer recommendation came out    They now "booster" DHPPI annually with a lesser known product ...... yet similarly priced.  

regards, Teri :)

I`m well aware how manu`s get their licenses.

I've had a little forage around the net and it seems to me that the vets here and in the States differ on what they recommend.  It's all very subjective and down to the individual vets or owners as to what is vaccinated against.  I've seen recommendations for KC vaccine only if dogs are shown or are going into kennels as these are more densely populated.  However, another vet suggests that vet waiting rooms can also be considered densely populated so your dog is always at risk. Reminds me of my mother saying that she hates going to the doctors because you never know what illness you are going to catch there :D

>PI is combined with Lepto but vets can vac for Lepto and KC only if requested by those who are unhappy with doubling up.

I think JPublic are happy to let their vets decide what is best and so long as those who are not happy with doubling up have a choice not to I think this is fair enough.

From what I have found the only conclusion I can come up with is that there is no right or wrong.

*I think JPublic are happy to let their vets decide what is best and so long as those who are not happy with doubling up have a choice not to I think this is fair enough.*

And just who is informing the unsuspecting paying public about this doubling up of Pi.....vets themselves

Wonder how many people on here would answer if we asked them how many of their vets informed them about that?????

>It's all very subjective and down to the individual vets or owners as to what is vaccinated against.

It is, Cheryl, very subjected at vet and owner level.  Different vets have different theories depending on how they perceive the information available to them.  So who's right and who's wrong?  I suppose it depends on who you want to believe and which vet's opinion you except. I listen to the experts.  There is a wealth of difference between an expert who specializes in their field and has been questioned by experts and a vet who knows a little about everything. 

>I think JPublic are happy to let their vets decide what is best and so long as those who are not happy with doubling up have a choice not to I think this is fair enough.

It would be fair yes, to have a choice not to double up but unfortunately in my experience our local vets are not giving us that choice.  They are vaccinating with KC on top of PI.  Where is the sense in that?

>There is a wealth of difference between an expert who specializes in their field and has been questioned by experts and a vet who knows a little about everything.

Which is likely to know more about the level of infection in a particular region?

Nobody knows for sure.  Infection risk may fluctuate; it doesn't stay fixed in time. 

How many vets have time to analyze that, how many take statistics on the level of infection?  In suspected parvo cases, some of them don't even test.  In some dogs, some vac won't 'take', maybe the not 'take' means that the vac isn't working and a few suspected cases means low risk infection?   How many vets can prove that? 

Furthermore, 2 vets in a different practice, same region, don't have the same shared experience or conclusion or opinion.   There is no comparsion IMO

So I'll carry on trusting the ones I deal with, who receive all the latest updates, rather than a stranger who knows nothing of either my dogs or my area.
:)

I expect local vets do confer, most professionals understand the usefullness of networking. The drug reps are probably another good source of information between the two in terms of who is meeting what to deal with I know that to be the case in GP practice.

I'll stick with my conduit to all the experts, just one or two would not be good enough for me :p :)

>I listen to the experts.  There is a wealth of difference between an expert who specializes in their field and has been questioned by experts and a vet who knows a little about everything

Which experts?

This is all I have been trying to find out all along so that I can decide for myself.  You and Christine seem to have access to academic material that no one else can see.  Without reading the research material on whether boosters are actually needed every year I cannot go against what my vet advises. 

Very few I would imagine S :(

Is this in response to Daisy being told she will have got KC vaccine with her PI?  If so what has that to do with the KC vaccine containing parainfluenza virus, she didn't have that.  However, I doubt if these two products are licenced to be used in same year that it has been found to be at all harmfull and perhaps if a dog is at risk of KC they are more succeptable to PI whatever it is I doubt the manufacturers would fork out for another active ingredient if they did not feel it useful.
Christine has already told us bordatella is included in the PI, but the Intervet site does not confirm this and we have no link to any other so perhaps you could tell us where you got the information from regarding this particular point.
I don't disbelieve that your vet has come to the conclusion it would be helpful to vaccinate annually for KC, did you ask him if he felt there was a local problem?  The only thing I questioned was the idea that this was something adopted by the profession as a whole (for monetary reasons ) as alluded to by you, so far, no other poster has come forward to say this is what their vets are recommending.
Why are you waiting for a response from intervet on this, I thought your vet told you he was not working on any derective from them?

Bordatella and PI are listed separately on my dog's pre-printed record card - confusing ain't it? ;)

*confusing ain't it? *

Yep it is to some folk :)

Yes it is ;) but I'm glad to see you have finally seen you got a bit mixed up in misleading Daisy to think she had received something she had not, I guess we can all get it muddled at times :)

*Christine has already told us bordatella is included in the PI, but the Intervet site does not confirm this*

Maybe I got it back to front & Pi is included with the KC, good job someones keeping an eye on things ;)

Up to now the vets Spender takes her dogs to are recommending it, must be quite a few dogs at that clinic. Maybe someone should do a search on here for past posts & see if anyone elses clinic has recommended it.

If I was a betting person I`d put money on Spenders vets not being the only ones recommending it :)

I certainly wouldn't take your bet Christine :), by the law of averages there is bound to be another vet out there somewhere recommending this, what I would be happy to bet on, though, is that it's far from common practice

*what I would be happy to bet on, though, is that it's far from common practice *

Time will tell ;)

Thanks for doing this Spender, very kind of you :)

So unless people who query the Lepto & which KC vax their dog is getting the dog will be getting a double dose of Pi, doesn`t surprise me in the least sadly ;(

People are either happy to just have what is recommended or they are not, if not they have only to ask for more details from their vet and I am sure they will be told, after all this is no secret, it is there for all to see on the manufacturers web site.  I'm sure the manufacturers would not have gone to the trouble of adding another component without reason and I must say I can well imagine if a dog is going to be at more risk of one respiratory disease, boarding etc, it makes sense to consider improving the cover for another and according to what Spender has been told the Pi cover is more effective when given as a nasal spray.  Presumably the annual s/c injection is regarded as sufficient for the normal course of events but if the rather unpleasant nasal job is being done anyway why not up the cover. The product could not be given more often than it is licensed for. 

Hi Spender, I used to vaccinate all the time every yr without fail.  My dogs kept getting kennel cough, I was right fed up when they got it for the 3rd time, especially when my eldests bout turned into pneumonia :(  I`ve got 3 youngster now & only 1 of them has caught KC once & they`ve not had the KC vax at all :) And my oldies haven`t caught again either & they have no more vax either :)

Schultz is good, so is Dodds :)

Manufacturers hold the most power & have the most to lose. I`d look to them. I`ll see what links I can find for you tomorrow :)

>Hi Spender, I used to vaccinate all the time every yr without fail.  My dogs kept getting kennel cough, I was right fed up when they got it for the 3rd time, especially when my eldests bout turned into pneumonia   I`ve got 3 youngster now & only 1 of them has caught KC once & they`ve not had the KC vax at all  And my oldies haven`t caught again either & they have no more vax either

I thought Schultz said there was no need for kennel cough vaccine.  Does this mean that the vaccine is causing kennel cough?

You know what thought did ;)  can only suggest you read thru the posts again to maybe understand a bit better :)

Well what I did think was that I was going to find out something useful on this thread. 

I am openminded and open to persuasion if the information is sound and can be verified.  Christine you seem to want to inform people of opnions and protocols but don't want people to know where they have come from.  You question my understanding and intelligence and yet all you are doing is giving snippets of information that as yet have no sound origins.

I am trying to follow up just one of your experts, Ronald Schultz.  So far all I have found is that he is a Chair of an US uni dept, has presented seminars and written articles for a vet magazine.  I cannot find any reference to any research that he has done since 1998. I am confident there isn't anything otherwise the university would have cited it on their website.  I am not doubting that he has years of experience in the field, just that he hasn't come up with anything himself which is contrary to the information you inferred. 

*I am trying to follow up just one of your experts, Ronald Schultz*

First off he`s not one of my experts at all. He happens to be held in high esteem by a lot more learned people than you or I :rolleyes:

Feel free to doubt away to your hearts content :)

I am not doubting.

Christine, believe it or not, all I am trying to do is get some information and I thought you were keen to give it.  As I said I am not doubting his experience at all, he didn't get where he is by not being held in high esteem.  This is what is confusing me, where is the material that he has produced that you have mentioned?

How can I and why should I question my vet's expertise and experience when I have no proof or logical argument?

If you think that people should be questioning veterinary procedures/protocols or whatever then give me the evidence to arm myself with.  So far all I have is your opinion based on your interpretation of what you've read.  All I want to do is see if I come up with the same interpretation.  Why are you being so defensive?

*So far all I have is your opinion based on your interpretation of what you've read.*

No you do not have my interpretation of it at all!!  What I have written are the words of the people I have quoted, most definately NOT my interpretation of them :rolleyes:

Like I said ask them yourself, the people I`ve quoted all have email which is pretty public & are very approachable :)

Thanks Christine... it's possible that the annual KC vac is a new recommendation that is taking time to filter down to some vet practises or perhaps some vets don't agree with it, but some vets have said it what they been advised to do so it's came from somewhere.......  I think I'll do some digging around tomorrow too....  :-D

> but some vets have said it what they been advised to do so it's came from somewhere.......

but how did it get to you? 
I don't think it's a new recommendation not from the manufacturers anyway, I think I gave a link to their comments on KC vaccine on the other thread.  I can't find anything about it on the BVA site either, or the KC press releases that often cover these things.  I think untill we solve the mystery we ought not to go about accusing vets of anything as unprofessional as looking to give unnecessary treatments in pursuit of money.