In 2003 the AAHA issued & published new guidlines/protocol on vax/boosters, 27 of USA vet teaching uni`s also changed their guidlines/protocols. It also became widely known about the research these bodies & manu`s held for the duration of immunity for vax against parvo/adno/distemper, which is 7yrs but probably lifetime.  I don`t have this document any longer but I`ve posted it on here in the past so anybody wanting to see it could do a search. Professor Schultz was on the board when discussing the new protocols/guidlines, his research played a big part in determining doi. & that info could no longer be supressed. Mind he wasn`t the only one, others had research that confirmed the findings.

Intervet announced in 2004 their vax now give 3 year immunity, several more manu`s have since followed suit.

Vax manu`s are global & all vets using them are obliged to follow their guidlines/protocols wherever they are in the world.

Lots of manu`s & vets are worried about considerable loss of income from giving less vaccines & that is why the vet profession worldwide are dragging their feet on this whole issue.

Christine, Spain.

>Lots of manu`s & vets are worried about considerable loss of income from giving less vaccines & that is why the vet profession worldwide are dragging their feet on this whole issue.

That might explain why some who have adopted the 3 yr protocol are now recommending the KC vaccination annually??

Thats it in a nutshell Spender :D :D

did you get the link on what Schultz says about KC vax S?

Here it is again if you didn`t  http://www.news.wisc.edu/8413.html

*Another common vaccine that Schultz says is unnecessary protects against "kennel cough," an often mild and transient disease contracted during boarding or dog shows. "Most pet dogs that do not live in breeding kennels, are not boarded, do not go to dog shows and have only occasional contact with dogs outside their immediate family," Schultz recommends, "rarely need to be vaccinated or re-vaccinated for kennel cough."

and

*"Kennel cough is not a vaccine preventable disease." It's a complex, resulting from exposure to several agents. Bordatella is only a small component, so it's really useless to vaccinate for bordatella.*

It was mentioned on other thread this would`t apply to UK, because is an island & being so densely populated. Would point out tho that this info was for all USA. That would include New York which is extremely densely populated, as are other US cities & areas.........

You know the vet legal agency in the usa has sent out advice to them on how vets can go about recouping some of this lost income :rolleyes: seems KC vax is advised  everywhere now.

My thoughts too Christine, :-D

I've read about some of Schultz's work before and that of Jean Dodd's too.  I don't vaccinate for KC and will not be starting now. 

>You know the vet legal agency in the usa has sent out advice to them on how vets can go about recouping some of this lost income  seems KC vax is advised  everywhere now.

Is this what's prompting UK vets to push KC vac or has advice also been issued from the BVA or RCVS or any other body?  I'm wondering who is the root of this in the UK?  The manu's don't appear to be recommending that all dogs get vac for KC annually unless I've missed it?

>Is this what's prompting UK vets to push KC vac

Have I missed something, I remember you saying your vet suggested it but I haven't seen any other posters saying theirs have, mine certainly hasn't, so where are we gettin this from?

Both my dogs have been for boosters in the last couple of months (Lepto and PI only :) ) - KC vaccine wasn't even mentioned :)

Daisy

PI = parainfluenz & usually contains live bordatella bronchiseptica virus=KC Daisy, although there is also an intra nasal vax as well

No mention of that on the Nobivac info, are you referring to another manufacturer?

*For active immunisation of dogs to prevent mortality and clinical signs caused by canine distemper virus infection. To reduce clinical signs of infectious hepatitis and viral excretion due to canine adenovirus type 1 infection. To prevent mortality, clinical signs and viral excretion following canine parvovirus infection. To reduce clinical signs and viral excretion caused by canine parainfluenza virus infection and to reduce clinical signs of respiratory disease and viral excretion following adenovirus type 2 infection.
Specific claims
An onset of immunity to the canine distemper virus, canine adenovirus and canine parvovirus vaccine components of 1 week and an onset of immunity of 4 weeks to the canine parainfluenza virus vaccine component has been demonstrated following use of the vaccine.
A duration of immunity of at least three years has been established for the canine distemper virus, canine adenovirus and canine parvovirus vaccine components. The duration of immunity for the canine parainfluenza virus component has not been demonstrated, but an anamnestic response is produced in dogs given a revaccination one year after basic vaccination. Annual revaccination with the canine parainfluenza virus vaccine component is recommended.

Taken from Nobivac DHPPi  in the UK of course :)

Daisy was talking aboutt the lepto and PI annual vaccine and you said the parainfluenz usually contains live bordatella bronchiseptica virus. There is no mention of that in this piece you have chosen to cut and paste   The Novicac PI information is in the link I have posted there is not mention of bordatella bronchiseptica cover included there.

I`ll check again tomorrow & put a link

but you or anyone else for that matter can always email intervet & ask them does their pi vax contain bordatella bronchisepta :rolleyes:

I`d have to eat humble pie if I was wrong wouldn`t I :D :D

In fact I`ll let somebody do just that instead of putting a link to justify what I say......... for nothing else but to prove me wrong :D :D

I've already posted the Nobivac link!  Here it is again Nobivac info

And the link I took mine from I`ve posted before in the past too!

What link?

Doesn`t mean thats the only link they have to their vax ;)

The link I have given is to the intervet site from there you can wander all over.  Are you saying there is another site altogether. 

Intervet are not the only people who publish info about manu`s own vaccines.

And I have posted the link from where I took that quote from on here before, more than once I think, but obviously no body thought it as interesting as I do.

Tried some links you've posted on other threads but they don't work

Ah that might be to do what you found out before in the other thread when one of your links only gave a snippet & if you wanted to read the whole article you need to pay a fee.

I`ve found some of my links don`t work cos the info has been moved to sites that require payment to access said info.

Guess it all boils down to how much you want the info

>Guess it all boils down to how much you want the info

I guess if the authors seriously thought it was important enough (or clear enough) for Joe Public to be told, then they'd publish it freely, in simple layman's terms. :)

As i`ve said already said, some of it is out there on the net for free.

Mind it wouldn`t bother me if I had to pay for it & wouldn`t think any less of them for charging. After all some folk like to spend money on magazines, books of fiction etc etc & they`re not cheap. I like to spend mine on educational books, all a matter of preference.

I like to use the library! ;) All the books are available for nothing ... :)

Yes and if you request it they will order anything in print for you.  I even requested a copy of my sister's book, they bought it, she got the money for the sale, and I didn't have to keep the inpenetrable thing (accademic :rolleyes:) on my bookshelf :p :D. 

Yes library is an excellent source only drawback is unless you have photographic memory you can`t refer back to anything once its been returned

It's easy enough to make notes of the titles and authors of the various publications, and the relevant passages. :) If necessary you can then borrow the book again.

I'm not educated in microbiology etc so I am unlikely to understand the vast majority of the articles in the journals.  Even if I was though, how many of the hundreds of journals would you recommend you subscribe to get a good overall picture of what the consensus is?

Subscription to the quality journals are sometimes only available to a qualification holding professional and some are not by subscription at all but published by professional governing bodies or associations and distributed to their members. 

Two close friends of mine went to visit a mutual friend who is studying psychiatry at Cambridge.  He took them to a lecture on something connected to Neurobiology (can't remember what she said it was now) where the speaker was a World renowned expert in the field of whatever the subject was.  The lecture audience was also made up of eminent people in the field, as you would expect.  One of my friends said that there was heated debate throughout where the lecture audience were grilling the speaker on his research, she said it was fascinating and quite scary the way the speaker's work was questioned at every turn. 

Research has to be questioned but you have to know a lot about the subjects to be able to do it properly.  This doesn't mean scrabbling around on the internet although it can be a good place to start. 

Christine you are obviously keen to find out about vaccinations and what is and isn't really necessary which is good and we need people like you to do this.  However, advising people on what they should do isn't really advisable because you as a layperson can only access a minimum amount of information.  If what you have found satisfies you then that is all you need but it is dangerous to state that boosters are not necessary because how would you feel if someone who always boosters for KC stops on your advice and the dog contracts KC and dies of pneumonia? (whoops, long sentence :D)

Opinions are fine, whatever they are based on but it should be stated that they are opinions and what they are based on so that people can make up their own minds as to whether or not they agree with the opinions

*If what you have found satisfies you then that is all you need but it is dangerous to state that boosters are not necessary because how would you feel if someone who always boosters for KC stops on your advice and the dog contracts KC and dies of pneumonia? (whoops, long sentence*

This is a forum exchange & my opinions are as valid as anybody else on here, I`m also careful as to what I advise as well
I suggest you go back & read again what I posted on vax but just in case you misread it again I will repeat

they   are   not   my   words

My mistake then.  Whose words are these?

>Lots of manu`s & vets are worried about considerable loss of income from giving less vaccines & that is why the vet profession worldwide are dragging their feet on this whole issue.

If you read my post again you will see that I didn't say that your opinions weren't valid :rolleyes:

I would imagine any other information posted by other agencies would be from information taken from Intervet themselves can't imagine why they would give out different to what they publish themselves.  Or are you saying your quote was regarding another manufacturer's vaccine in which case it would be useful to know which and Daisy can check if that was the one her dog received, thats if it bothers her to receive some KC cover :)
I don't keep all your links in my favourites, Christine :), so until you find the time to rummage around for it I think I will take it that they don't add bordatella vaccine.
Still don't understand why you posted that great screed about DHPPi :)

My quote was from Intervets data sheet for dhppi

I think you might find that they are incorporated, but I`m prepared to be corrected if I`m wrong :)

Do you mean the Pi is a component of DHPPi or bordatella?.  If you are saying the Pi is a component in the DHPPi no one was questioning that, as you say it is clear for everyone to see on the Intervet site, if they did not already know it from the vaccines "name" ;) but you printed this screed in answer to where was the information that bordatella was included with the Pi, now there is a lot of latin in that screed but I can't spot bordatella anywhere :)

Isabel was wondering where the information came from that the Pi vaccine includes bordetella. You said: "PI = parainfluenz & usually contains live bordatella bronchiseptica virus" The quote made no mention of that.

How do you manage to word things so much more succinctly than me? :)

.

I remember your post Isabel, less than 6mths ago too

*After discussions with my vet I have decided to continue with annual vaccinations. * 

http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?pid=516452;hl=;hlm=uid#pid516452

Then you will remember my vet had already adopted the new protocol, in fact I don't think I have seen a single post from anyone whose vet hasn't so I have no idea why you have started this thread to give us this rather old news.

6 mths ago after discussions with your vet you had decided to continue with annual vaccinations Isabel, so not you nor you`re vet had already adopted the new protocols then.
Hardly old news more of a volt face by you :rolleyes:

You need to read the thread again, my vet was offering the new protocol I chose to take full vaccination at that time thats why we were discussing it.
The protocols have been in place nearly two years I call that old news.

Will do when I get the time, meantime could you show me where you say it was your vet offering the 3yr protocol & you declining.

Thing is tho its only sometime in the last 5mths you`ve accepted the protocols, I call that new news

>We both know what intervet says but I don't feel comfortable

That's pretty clear, in the original thread I have enboldened the I, not sure if that will show in the quote, to indicate that was not what my vet was suggesting.  If you read the thread again, which maybe you haven't if you couldn't find the above, you will see I had accepted cover was good for 3 years but that I never had any issues about the dangers of overvaccinating so decided to continue for that year.  We have revaccinated since with just lepto and PI so pretty old news even on that front.  But you didn't start this thread on this subject the one you chose was the even older news of the new protocol dispite no indications from any poster or poster's vet being unaware of it   I have no idea why?

I started it cos of the number of times I still keep seeing the question * Do my dogs need boosters* also on what an eminent immunologist (besides others) is reporting on the findings of Lepto & KC.

I`ll have to look at the other thread later, trying to keep upto date here at the mo :0

The intra-nasal vaccine is squirted up the dog's nose for Bordetella bacteria and Para-Influenza virus. 

Para-influenza is boostered for annually (PI). 

The intra-nasal vaccine is the one I'm talking about, Nobivac KC is licensed for 1 year and protects against Bordetella Broniseptica and Canine Para-influenza so dogs getting Lepto PI and KC annually are vaccinated for PI twice????

*****Kennel cough - Each 0.4ml dose contains 108.0 cfu of Bordetella bronchiseptica strain B-C2 and at least 103.0 TCID50 of canine parainfluenza virus strain Cornell*****

****Nobivac Pi contains canine parainfluenza virus strain Cornell*****

I was advised by vet practises in the local area last year that when they adopted the 3 yr protocol for the core vaccines that they would now be vaccinating annually for Lepto, PI and Kennel Cough (Bordetella broniseptica and Canine Para-influenza).  

To be sure that I didn't misunderstand at the time, I double checked and contacted them again this morning.  Yes indeed, they are recommending 3 vaccinations annually.  I asked the vet where did this directive come from and he said he didn't think it came from anywhere, it was up to the individual practise and then gave me some flannel about how we should be vaccinating annually for KC.  If you don't believe me, I will give you the practise name and telephone number by PM. 

I'm waiting for Intervet to call me with an explanation. 

Did you ask your vet why he thinks your dog should be vaccinated every year?

I had a long in-depth conversation about vac with my vet last August.  He didn't suggest my dogs were vac with KC or PI, he told me it wasn't needed but that the practise was moving to recommend KC with Lepto PI annually at the time.

One vet today said that KC was becoming more resistant to vaccination but couldn't tell me which strain that was. 

I have just spoken to Intervet, yes; these vets are doubling up on PI by vaccinating for PI and KC.  Para- influenza is the same strain in both vaccinations.

Bordetella broniseptica is only recommended if dogs are going into kennels etc.  But the aspiratory method of absorption for PI is more superior to that of intravenous injection.

PI is combined with Lepto but vets can vac for Lepto and KC only if requested by those who are unhappy with doubling up.  

But how many average Joe Public owners know that?

>He didn't suggest my dogs were vac with KC or PI, he told me it wasn't needed but that the practise was moving to recommend KC with Lepto PI annually at the time.

Can't understand, seems to be a contradition are they recommending KC or not.  Anyway all very interesting but not really evidence other vets are following suit.
The inclusion of parainfluenza virus in the KC nasal spray is quite clear and is stated on their site, together with the route and the recommendation of use ;).  The inclusion of the bordatella cover in the Pi is not, however, so we still only have your word for it, did you ask them why their web site was not stating this? 
However if this is what they are recommended I don't have an issues with it if they are licenced for use in the same year.  This whole thread and the other have been largely concerned with the inability of the general public to properly inform themselves of all the research, discussions and issues surrounding the choices made for us by the professionals so beyond choosing not to seek vaccination cover at all I really don't think the public can do more than accept the recommendations as being devised by a proper concensus of opinion between the experts in that area.

>He didn't suggest my dogs were vac with KC or PI, he told me it wasn't needed but that the practise was moving to recommend KC with Lepto PI annually at the time.

>Can't understand, seems to be a contradition are they recommending KC or not. 

This was his own personal opinion, not the practise protocol.  I had it backed up by Hal Thompson of Glasgow Uni. 

>The inclusion of the bordatella cover in the Pi is not, however, so we still only have your word for it, did you ask them why their web site was not stating this? 

I didn't say Bordetella cover was in PI, to be honest I didn't ask.  If you're interested, call Intervet, they are very helpful - Tele - 01908 665 050

>This whole thread and the other have been largely concerned with the inability of the general public to properly inform themselves of all the research, discussions and issues surrounding the choices made for us by the professionals so beyond choosing not to seek vaccination cover at all I really don't think the public can do more than accept the recommendations as being devised by a proper consensus of opinion between the experts in that area.

Is it?  I thought this one was about Christine letting everyone know without doubt about new guidelines/protocol on vax/boosters. 

The information is there if people want to research it and play an active role in their dogs immunization programme. The choice is theirs.  

What did you have backed up by Hal Thompson, the fact that your vet, or his practice but not him (if I have finally got what you are saying right ;)) is recommending KC be given annually?   What's it got to to with Hal?

>I didn't say Bordetella cover was in PI, to be honest I didn't ask.  If you're interested, call Intervet, they are very helpful - Tele - 01908 665 050

Why would I, all the information you have given us in on the their web site and was never in question so I have no idea why you posted it.  It was the claim that KC was included in the Pi that is in doubt.
This thread may have been started because Christine was not sure everyone was aware of the recommendations but the previous thread certainly covered the issues regarding the information available to the public.  You say the information is there but I'm afraid the vast majority of it is not.  That thread is locked now and I'm not sure there is anything anyone can add anyway so I doubt Admin would appreciate us going over the same points regarding that particular subject all over again :)

*The information is there if people want to research it and play an active role in their dogs immunization programme.*

I second that!! :)