Hello everyone,
Hope you all have had an enjoyable christmas, and santa has been good to you ;-)
I would welcome your opinions and advise:
I am hoping to buy a puppy by summer 2006, and have spent the last 6 months considering various breeds by using internet, meeting breeders and attending some of the shows and have narrowed it down to 2 breeds, the Giant Schnauzer (GS) and the Russian Black Terrier(RBT), in fact I had settled in the GS until I met someone with a RBT.
I currently have a 2 1/2 yr old spayed female Labrador. I am hoping to go for working trials seriously and have got my Labrador started but she prefers a more relaxed lifestyle and rain/snow are not exactly her cup of tea, fair enough as she came to us to be a pet and is not temperamentaly cutout for that. She would look disdainfully at the prospect of doing any outdoor work
Anyway, I decided to get a puppy that I could be able to work with and perhaps lightly show in conformation if possble. The only stipulation my wife had was that she it should be a low shedding type, as our dogs live with indoors and my labrador already sheds quite a bit. Thus it ruled out the popular collies and GSDs. I prefer larger dogs and thus most of the smaller breeds were ruled out.  I met a few standard poodles and was not happy with the temperaments of the ones I came across ( I am sure there are a number of good bloodlines here in UK) and decided I would not be going for them basically it was a process of elimination until I was left with the GS and of late the RBT. However I gather the RBT has a major problem with hips and almost all have high hip scores, and scales, jumps may take their toll. However most of the GS's in UK were bred for the show ring and most do not have working backgrounds in their pedigrees. I thus considered bringing in a dog from Germany, however this would mean I have to get a 9 month old dog even when purchased as a puppy as the pet passport rules require a 6 month wait after blood titre levels are satisfactory, not to mention the expense.
Thus my current options are:
1- to get on the waiting list of a GS breeder in UK
2- Buy a GS puppy from germany
3- Get in touch with an RBT breeder and book a puppy in UK

Would appreciate your opinions.
Thanks
Yash

We used to have two lovely RBT's come to our ringcraft but unfortunately they were rehomed after a year due to no fault of their own but I'd better not go into that.

I don't know how many hip score their dogs but I would get in touch with as many breeders as possible and find out everything that you want to know from them.

Hope you have good luck in your search whichever breed you go for.

Depends on what is the most important thing to you, competing seriously in Working Trials or owning a RBT/GS with which you could dabble in Working Trials. I have seen a couple of GS in WT however they have not progressed very far, how much of that is down to nature and what is due to nurture I do not know, and I do not recall famous GS in the past in WT, but I could be wrong.

TBH if your labrador does not like rain or snow I doubt if either of your two choices will necessarily have a different attitude :D

Is your lab from working or show/pet lines?  Most labs I know enjoy nothing more than to throw themselves in icy rivers etc etc etc! :D

Standard Poodles are fab and there have been some excellent ones in Working Trials although as like many breeds, theyare not bred specifically for any type of work, it can be a bit hit and miss;some dogs take to it, some do not.  If working ability is not specifically selected for, then it will naturally die out.

I am sure that you will have already been told that if you wish to compete seriously in any sport then it is a good idea to purchase a "tool for the job" if you do not want to face a lot of frustration and disappointment; having said that, Working Trials is enjoyed at all levels by many differing breeds as long as the training is sufficient and the dog does not have any "weak" areas.

The agility demands in Working Trials are not to be sneezed at and opinion is divided on which, if any, obstacle takes the most toll; the 9ft long jump or the 6ft scale.  Certainly the larger, heavier dogs can be at a disadvantage when it comes to the scale as a general rule and as you know, it is impossible to qualify in any stake without the scale jump.

If you want something that does not have a double coat like a GSD or a Labrador, have you considered a shortcoated Weimaraner, GSP, GWP, HV etc?  They have excellent nosework and agility although the control can be a little harder to achieve.

There are people who have imported dogs at this age however you need to consider that 9 months is long time in the world of training and if and when the dog arrived etc it may still not be suitable, there are no guarantees whichever route you follow.

The other thing to consider is that in some breeds, particulary working ones, the continental lines can be a lot "harder" than those of the UK precisely because they are bred to fulfil both function and form (something that is not ALWAYS at the top of the agenda in the UK) and this has, in the past, been a bit of a shock to some UK owners..........

Not sure if any of the above helps at all.

ps you did not mention whether or not you wanted to do PD with your chosen dog, if so this really narrows your choice still further as not all breeds are suitable and not all individuals from the suitable breed list, are necessarily up for it.

Thank you Spanishwaterdog and Allyson.
Allyson I have replied with answers to your queries at the wt site.
I am aware of the difference in dogs from the continent, having met  a number of lovely dogs with friends in Germany and Luxemburg. It is a pity that many breeders in UK address either form OR function and not both.
Anyway that is a different story. Thanks again and a Happy New Year to you all.
Yash

Another breed worth considering is the Doberman, there are a number of lines with Continental working drive.  The breed has traditionaly doen well in working spheres.

In the UK?

Don't know of any in WT since the early 90s and very very few in Schutzhund.

A mutual freind has a dog from Russia and my neighbour has one of his offspring as well as a bitch from a continental sire. 

I was thinking of the 90's of the bitch that won the Obedience Championships, and of course since Pet Passports a number of breedrs ahve been going to the continent to mate bitches. 

One that comes to mind is Aritaur, so even if the owners aren't working the offsprign the working traits are bound to be nearer the surface than some of the Established ones,a dn from what I ahve been told people are finding the dogs a bit different to deal with because of the workign drives.

rillaton schnauzers has german lines i think in her giants- i know she has imported some. She has both black and salt and pepper giants. however, i have to say they are kennel reared- not home reared. we have one of her black standards.

We have a Dobe pup, from European lines. She' s 6 months old, seems born for working but as sweet as a nut. If you want some fun and games, get one of these and you'll never be bored again. I know Jay and Martin from Aritaur well, their Dobes are brill and so are they. Take a look at their website and you'll see some pics of them working.
www.aritaur.co.uk

Viv

Absolutely spiritulist, Jay and Martin do have some very nice dogs, and they are very nice too.........

Must say I agree, but am biased as my current dobe walking partner is an Aritaur male :D

Hi
Just to say that Warwickshire Police have a 3 or 4 year old RBT called Mig which is used as a 'take out' dog. Seems to have taken to and stood up to the physical demands of the training and work very well. Guess with any big boned dog you have to be careful to allow them to mature fully before subjecting them to stresses - and just because a society says a dog can't compete until 2 years of age or whatever, ignoring that totally and waiting until 3 or whenever if that is what is right for your animal and he is slow maturing.  (Have just read that last bit back and it may sound a bit double dutch, but I hope you get my drift.)  :-)

To reply to Spiritulist, I have an Aritaur dobe from Jay and Martin. He is typical European, ideal for working I imagine but very different from other dobermanns (ie English American lines) far harder. They are busy dogs and need an enormous amount of work to keep them occupied. He is the most handsome dobe I have ever seen, may I add! (tho not the easiest!)

Barbara/Dedlin/Spiritualist/Jan/milomum
Thank you for your opinions and suggestions.
I have met both Jay and Martin and they are really lovely people. They also have great looking Dobies and I know they have got bloodlines from all over Europe. However Dobes inspite of being so short coated do shed quite a bit of hair.

I have actually worked a Canadian bloodline (solar/rebolzer) Dobe (loooooooong ago) and got rosettes with him. This was one of the reasons I considered them and I spent time researching the breed in UK. However I have been cheated by 2 breeders in Scotland and coupled with the criteria laid down by my wife of a low shedding dog had to sadly rule them out.
Jan- that's pretty interesting information about RBT/BRT's being used by the police. I agree with you about waiting for fusion of growth plates and personally prefer to go by an x-ray of hips/elbow before putting stress on the dogs joints by rigorous work.
Thanks again for all your comments and suggestions.
Yash