what is the difference with a dog who has had all the vaccinations,boosters etc, and a dog who has never had any type of vet injection,thanks

One is guarded against disease and one isn't. One can get a pet passport and one can't. One can stay in boarding kennels and one can't

........one is covered by insurance for treatment of those diseases and one is not.

...and quite often the unvaccinated dog has a lot less health problems than the vaccinated one ! :)

one can be insured and one can't (often a requirement of policies to have up to date vaccinations).  One pup can go out, one can't.

and the vaccination is alot cheaper then paying for the treatment if n unvaccinated dog gets parvo , kennal cough, and in some countries hepatitis

The Kennel Club will insure with no exclusions so long as you forward a copy of the lab report from the titre test.

I've not vaccinated in nearly 10 years and never had any trouble with insurance.

This is far more of an issue than you can find answers for in one place - you need to read as much as you can, speak to experts (NOT JUST YOUR VET), run through what if scenarios in your head etc etc and then only you can decide what is best for YOUR dogs.

I had a dog who was ill all her life due to vaccination issues and we lost her last year due to side effects from the medication these issues meant that she had to take.
My Lab who is 10 next year only ever had her puppy jabs, ran titre tests last year out ofinterest and she is as well protected as any other dog needs to be.

It's a very very personal issue though, and only onethat you can decide on. SOME kennels will accpet dogs with titre certification and /or noseode certs if you need to board but I would guess they'd not necessarily be local or handy so thats a consideration.

I would have said most vets will be fully aware of what the body of opinion is advising regarding something so commonplace as vaccination.  I suppose if you had any doubts that your vet was ill informed or persuing a maverick course :) you could always confirm with the BVA what current research is indicating.  As you say it is important not to look just in one place for the answers and they will have the very best access to all the data available.

All vets are aware of their code of conduct rules. Part of it says vets are *Actively Encouraged* to report suspected adverse reactions, very few do :rolleyes:

I`d say not many vets are fully aware of current research, even tho its such a common place practice :(

Christine, Spain.

I don't suppose they are all aware of each piece of research as it comes out but I'm pretty sure it would be the talk of the journals if a general seachange of opinion occured and very few would miss it :)

The most recent change regarding boosters is still taking time to get thru to vets. Still hearing of vets sending out annual reminders even tho they are using the vax that only need doing every 3 years :rolleyes:

Its been the talk of everywhere, even on the vaccine manufacturers data as well :rolleyes:

Some diseases are still recommended to be vaccinated against annually by the manufacturers.  It's probably a good idea to have an annual check up anyway.

Lepto & kennel cough are the only other routine ones recommended yearly & both are dubious as to their effectiveness as they are caused by many different serovars/bacteria, its not even known if the vaccines given are for the right ones

Heres what H. Thompson has to say about vax & particularly the Lepto vax

*Dr Thompson, however, maintained that crirics of the current system were probably right. The virus that causes distemper is closely related to the human measles agent & inoculation against that disease confers lifelong immunity, he pointed out.*

* Dr Thompson also queried the choice of leptospira serovars used by vaccine manufacturers. Current products confer protection against L canicola & L ictero but having carried out post mortem examinations on every dog that has died over the past 10yrs at practices in the Clydeside area of Glasgow, he said he had not seen an incident of L canicola. He suggested that UK vaccine manufacturers should follow their American counterparts in switching to alternative serovars such as bratislava or gryppotyphosa.*

Vets should send reminders for check-ups.....not boosters, whole lot of difference between the 2 & thats just not happening.....yet ;) :D

I wonder if Mr Thompson was aware that, if the dogs that died didn't die of the vaccinated disease, but another strain, it could be said to prove that the vaccination had worked. ;)

As my grandmother contracted measles 6 times (confirmed by hospital tests), and I have contracted mumps twice (again, medically confirmed) I am dubious about claims of 'lifelong immunity'.
:)

*I wonder if Mr Thompson was aware that, if the dogs that died didn't die of the vaccinated disease, but another strain, it could be said to prove that the vaccination had worked*

You`d never know unless the dog encountered the strain it was vaxed against would you J/G, so it proves nothing ;) :D

*As my grandmother contracted measles 6 times (confirmed by hospital tests), and I have contracted mumps twice (again, medically confirmed) I am dubious about claims of 'lifelong immunity'.*

There are many strains of measles J/G. The current vax covers all strains according to manus. There again I`m sure Mr Thompson could explain better than me, you could always ask him :)

Also it must have been a long time ago your g/mother was *medically confirmed* as having measles 6 times, so I`m dubious as to the tests done in those times

The medical staff at St Bartholomew's Hospital are as well qualified to diagnose measles as anyone, Christine. My grandmother died less than 20 years ago.

So is Hal Thompson, Schultz et al & no disrespect J/G but times have moved on considerably since your g/mothers day :)

It was hardly the Dark Ages, Christine! :rolleyes: Doctors 25 years ago were as up-to-date as any today - and indeed, very thousands are still practicing.

Ok J/G when was the last time your g/mother had measles & was she vaccinated against it :)

I have no idea Christine, and I'm not about to hold a seance to ask her! :D

What is important is the fact that the concept of 'lifelong immunity' is not cast in stone. :)

* have no idea Christine, and I'm not about to hold a seance to ask her*

Lol@ J/G :D :D :D

*What is important is the fact that the concept of 'lifelong immunity' is not cast in stone*

Ah but then that is true of most things, but for the majority it is fact ;) :D

Christine, Spain.

ps love how I can do all these things with italics & bold & faces now :D

don`t noone say its about time too :D

It's about time :D :D :D

Lol @ Mel :D

Trust you to be the *1* :D

We aim to please Christine :D :p

Can`t find the stick tongue out 1 :rolleyes: or the embarressed 1 :(

Have to make do with :rolleyes: :D ;)

As long as the recommendations are for annual boosters for these diseases I can't see why on earth they should not send reminders.  If people don't want to avail themselves of it that's up to them.
If pieces of research produced by individual scientists are sound they will be replicated by others and become the consensus in time but I don't think it is appropriate, in scientific circles, to institute changes until, and if, that happens.  We have surely learned our lesson about that from the MMR debacle, although of course that was not the health community overreacting but the general public.

Some people appear to choose to listen only to what they want to hear no matter how much evidence is produced, or in the case of research for boosters, absolutely none 

I choose to make my own decisions on fact :D

Christine, Spain.

I have no preference as to what I am going to hear from the professional body as a whole when they make their judgements, although I reckon it would be very nice for my dogs and my pockets if they decide it is safe to vaccinate less/not at all :)  However, my primary interest is that I do the safest thing for my dogs, there are so many "facts" whatever concensus emerges is the one for me.

Fact is fact & the manufacturers of vaccines themselves say that their vax give Distemper, Parvo & Adno give a 3 year immunity

It cannot be made more of a fact than that

Unless of course you have an immuno compromised body, then no amount of vaccination will confer immunity & thats another fact :D

But these facts have been accepted by the consensus of opinion they have been through the process that I was talking about.  I thought we were discussing those that have not like the lepto vaccination issue and the research of individuals that is not as yet supported by the majority in the profession.

If they have been then why are a lot of vets still boostering for Distemper and Parvo & Adno I`ve been going on about it for a number of yrs on here as the evidence was there but I recall it being called into question many times, still does even now

A fact about Lept is that the vaccine in the UK is for 2 of the serovars only & there are many more that cause the disease. Hal Thompson has already spoke about it, the Americans have already gone some way to address the situation but the UK still lags behind Thats even without the fact a lot of pets don`t need it cos they`re not likely to come into contact with the disease :rolleyes:

You`d need to read more about how they would do the research, its not possible on ethical grounds to the animal but what evidence they do have about it should not be dismissed. Remember, its taken a long time to get the majority to support the unecessary act of yearly boosters for 3 diseases ;)

I'm not aware of "lots" of vets not adopting the vaccine recommendations, mine has.

>its taken a long time to get the majority to support the unecessary act of yearly boosters for 3 diseases

Well it will do but the process is necessary to avoid adopting an erroneous course of action.  As we know from the MMR thing single pieces of research can be very missleading, although again, it was the public, egged on by the media, that made that mistake not the profession who regarded it in its proper context.

Judging how many posters keep asking the question are they needed or not on forums such as this & others the vets aren`t doing a very good job of letting their clients know :rolleyes:

The undisputable evidence has been there for a number of yrs now & it still gets thrown into question. Clubs asking for *proof* boosters have been done, kennels demanding the same thing etc etc

What makes me even more cross is the fact many people accept boosters being needed without any scientific evidence to prove they were ever needed in the first place :( :(

By the way very glad to hear your vet finally adopted the new protocol regarding vax, for your dogs sake :)

>Judging how many posters keep asking the question are they needed or not on forums such as this & others the vets aren`t doing a very good job of letting their clients know

If your vet sends a reminder for the annual booster who am I to argue if I don't know any different?  I don't have access to animal medical journals so how would I know that boosters are not needed

>What makes me even more cross is the fact many people accept boosters being needed without any scientific evidence to prove they were ever needed in the first place 

I imagine (but don't know of course) that boosters were given as a precaution when vaccines were first introduced.  If the research had been done properly dogs given boosters and dogs not given boosters would have had their antibody levels checked and compared over a number of years.

Is this what the Thompson expert has done?

*If your vet sends a reminder for the annual booster who am I to argue *

His very valuable client   And of course the owner of your very valuable pet ;) :D

Do a google for *schultz canine vaccine protocol* print it off & show it to your vet. Also print off the info on the homepage of Nobivac UK, the most common vaccine used in UK & give that to him as well. If he doesn`t use it ask him to get it in for you. If he refuses find a vet that does :)

Whether are not boosters were given as a precaution doesn`t alter the factit was done without any scientific evidence, titres or otherwise & was erroneous :(

Thompson had nothing to do with the policy of boosters, that was all down to vax manufacturers & accepted without question :(

When visiting the Intervet site you can see quite clearly that they recommend some vaccinations are carried out annually.  They also mention the research that has gone into this, they obviously feel the evidence is there.

Only 2 are recommended, Lepto & kennel cough. Lepto is questionable to say the least Research has shown the cover it gives can be for only 6-9mths. b) The srovars used in the vaccine aren`t the ones causing disease in UK c) Its the one that is known to cause the most adverse reactions.

Kennel cough, well only thing I can say about that is when I used to vax my dogs they still managed to catch it :rolleyes: I`ve seen posts on here about dogs with kennel cough even tho they`ve been vaxed against it

It doesn't matter if it is one, two or fifty two it still justifies a vet sending an annual reminder and taking him a copy of the manufacturers information is just going to confirm that.
The kennel cough vaccine is pretty well understood not to give total protection but many people choose to give it as it will at least limit the strains that your dog may develop and possibly the severity.  Again the duration of the Lepto cover is known to be limited but you might choose to do as I do and have the vaccination in the spring so cover is extended through the summer when the risk is higher.  Perhaps there is arguement for having it done more frequently than just annually :)

I didn't realise that Lepto can transfer to humans either.  My family come first without hesitation.

* My family come first without hesitation.*

So do most peoples Cheryl :)

But I`m wondering just how common is Lepto & the serovars causing it in UK, are they the same ones used in the Lepto vax???? If they`re not it would be a waste of time using that vax..........

>But I`m wondering just how common is Lepto & the serovars causing it in UK, are they the same ones used in the Lepto vax???? If they`re not it would be a waste of time using that vax..........

Not necessarily, as said in other posts you need the scientific evidence which seems to be shortcoming in this area.  However, it might be like the flu jab for humans.  They can't give out the jab for the forthcoming flu, only the flu that has already been around the year before.  The jab is not worthless though as it reduces the severity of the bout of the new virus.  Anything that might help is better than nothing at all.  Same as Meningitis jab, it only covers a %age of strains but if it saves you from getting just one that is going around at the time it is worth having

You seem to have misunderstood, the evidence IS there & has been acted on already in the USA!!  Also it is not like the flu jabs, not a bit like it at all.  The scientific evidence states there is little protection between serovars.........maybe you didn`t see this extract

* Kansas University reports that the Leptospirosis vaccine is THE major cause of vaccine reactions, so much so that they consider the risks outweigh the benefits.........*

AND THIS

* Use of the vaccine in the USA has led to a shift in the serovars such that the serovars now infecting dogs are not the ones used in the vaccines (14). Can we assume this is true also in the UK? Are we now vaccinating against a disease that barely exists in the form vaccinated for? *

*The kennel cough vaccine is pretty well understood not to give total protection but many people choose to give it as it will at least limit the strains that your dog may develop and possibly the severity*

How many strains of kennel cough are there????? Its certainly needs a real stretch of the imagination on how it could limit the strains that your dog may develop & possibly the severity key word being possibly, it certainly didn`t when I of my dogs KC turned to pneumonia :(

*Perhaps there is arguement for having it done more frequently than just annually*

Believe me if the vax manu`s thought they could push that they would. Fortunately even they wouldn`t dare risk suggesting it be done more often ;)

Kansas Uni has reported the Lept vax is THE major cause of vaccine reactions, so much so that they consider the risks far outweigh the benefits & they no longer consider it a core vaccine, as do other parts of the states & even recommend it not be given to pups!!

Another study found it highly immunosuppressive & recommended it not be given with other vax like they do in UK.

*The Leptospirosis vaccine does not protect the dog from being infected with the disease; it just minimizes the clinical symptoms. Hence there seems to be/have been a real risk of vaccinated healthy dogs shedding the spirochetes so possibly posing a threat to other dogs and humans. Although one manufacturer has recently claimed it has a new vaccine to prevent this, the clinical study conducted to test the vaccine was based on a sample of only 6 dogs (15). In our opinion a study so narrowly based cannot of course be scientifically credible.  The duration of immunity measurable by titre induced by the Leptospirosis vaccine can be as little as a few months (14,16) yet the advised interval for boosters is 1 year, which it seems has been an entirely arbitrary recommendation. By inference it may well be therefore that even vaccinated dogs have not been protected as their owners expect.

6. There is little protection between serovars (types). Use of the vaccine in the USA has led to a shift in the serovars such that the serovars now infecting dogs are not the ones used in the vaccines (14). Can we assume this is true also in the UK? Are we now vaccinating against a disease that barely exists in the form vaccinated for?

I believe Mr Hal Thompson is also now questiong the same thing, just what is the purpose of a vaccinating against the wrong serovars

I wonder just how many dogs have been diagnosed with lepto in the UK during the past 5/10 yrs or so & which serovars actually caused it??????

Brings us back to is a reminder to have boosters done justified when said boosters may not even be necessary at all :D

I know what I think :D :D

Unless the KC vaccine is aimed at no strains its going to limit the ones likely to be contracted by at least that!  Just because an individual dog was not protected enough not to develop a secondary infection does not tell us anything about whether the vaccinated population is generally suffering less when contracting, my understanding is, like when dogs have had the virus previously, that the severity will be reduced.
As with all these studies we need to take it in context with all the other information available, if it is sound it will be replicated and accepted within the profession.  This is how the accademic world operates and I don't know of any sensible alternative.

*As with all these studies we need to take it in context with all the other information available, if it is sound it will be replicated and accepted within the profession.*

Dr Schultz first recommended a 3 yr schedule in 1978, the AAHA Canine Vaccine Task Force finally adopted it in 2003, Intervet & other manus decided their vax gave increased immunity of 3yrs 2004 note well not a new vaccine the same with longer immunity............

*This is how the accademic world operates and I don't know of any sensible alternative. *

Think we`re both aware of how it works Isabel, thing is I`m going with whats out there now in the USA. :)

For me the sensible alternative is concentrating all my efforts on my dogs immune systems, thats the key to true health & protection of all disease :)

You are perfectly entitled to look to other countries that have protocols more inline with how you are thinking I am quite happy with the standard of reseach and accademia in the UK.
Of course it's all accademic (scuse pun ;)) anyway if you are choosing not to vaccinate at all :) but as I think vaccination is the greatest thing to have happened to child (and canine :)) health since they invented mothers milk :) I like to see it determined under the best possible scientific process.

*You are perfectly entitled to look to other countries that have protocols more inline with how you are thinking I am quite happy with the standard of reseach and accademia in the UK.*

Of course I`m going to take advantage of those protocols, especially when 3 out 5 have now gone universal ;) Its only a matter of time before the other 2 go the same way :)

I believe the standards of research & learning in the UK is as good as anywhere else in the world today, the problem is no one wants listens to it :rolleyes:

And of course your right it is all academic when I choose not to vaccinate, but thats beside the point :D

It doesn`t stop me wanting other people to know the facts tho so they can limit their choice of vax to those that are needed & those that are not needed & helping put all the facts in the public domain which is where they should be :D

This makes me think you don't understand the accademic process at all   You cannot have a preconception that any piece of research is going to be replicated and always adopted otherwise what is the point of having the process at all.  You have to be dispassionate and openminded under the answer emerges, when that happens of course everyone listens to it. 

Whether you think I understand accademic progress or not is besides the point & irrelevant.

I`ll say again for the last time, the reseach has been done, accepted & new protocols have been implemented in the USA (& more recently in UK) by the AAHA regarding boosters based on replicated research.

Lepto is NOT considered to be a core vaccine over there. Its efficacy is questionable & Cornell will be publishing a study showing some breeds more susceptable to it re adverse reactions :(

It is reported as being THE major cause of vaccine reactions.

It is highly unlikely any new research will be carried in the future.

Christine, Spain.

I think people who give this vax should start asking questions about it & finding out if their dogs really need it.