Im not a breeder but am really curious about Endorsments - i have a cross so obv it doesnt apply to me - im just wondering how many endorsements there are and what they mean?
Ive read alot of you endorse your pups and theres obvious reasons why you do this - im just curious about how many there is and what they stand for.
Thanks :-)

There are now only two endorsements that a breeder can put on the registrations: Progeny not eligible for registration; and Export pedigree not allowed. The first is self-explanatory, the second means that if the pup is exported (either with the new owner or sold on) then it can't be registered with another country's Kennel Club, and so can't be used for showing or breeding abroad.

Both of these endorsements can be lifted by the breeder at any time.

Hope this helps!

Thanks Jean,
I thought there was a breeding endorsment?
And what about a showing endorsment?
Lol cant believe how little i know - sorry all if you find this tedius as you may have answered it all before

Playing the devils advocate here!!!!!
Do some breeders "hide" behind endorsements as a means of using lines with health problems,instead of using health tested "clear" lines?

Also surely people if they are good breeders should ONLY be selling to people they trust & have got to know,if they are having to sell to people who they think are going to "Breed abuse" their pup,then maybe they should not sell their pups to them?

Good point Michelled, i do agree to a point with endorsements, so the dog isn't bred before it's mature also that it meets it's breed  standard but for all other reasons no there shouldn't be one.

There isn't one for showing Sarah but there is one for breeding this is the one that says no progeny to be registered with the kennel club, so if the bitch is bred you can't register the pups with the kennel club but that doesn't stop the dog from being bred full stop.

Warm regards Susan 

why would someone sell one of there dogs to someone who would do that? If people are having trouble getting rid of puppies to good homes that they trust maybe they should breed less litters,not just endorse so they can cover themselves if the person ends up to be abit "dodgey".

Do people use "endorsements" to cover their own backs?

In any case,we all know that endorsements do not stop the bad breeding,just the registering of the pups.

I don't breed myself, but I would think that by placing endorsements on the dog, the breeder would feel they are doing everything within their power to prtotect their pups from the unscrupulous owner, who may not feel the requirement to have all health checks etc prior to breeding.

JMO and if I was to start breeding, yes I would endorse my pups.

Or would it be better not to SELL the pup to that person. full stop. & not to breed lines with genetic health problems?

I think most good breeders blanket endorse now - I know that my GSD and Lab were both endorsed 10 years ago and Noobie is too

>surely people if they are good breeders should ONLY be selling to people they trust & have got to know

If only it were that simple! As we all know, not everyone tells the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Some people are very accomplished liars (you only have to watch programmes like Watchdog to see how easily honest people can be hoodwinked)

landed in wrong place see below

true but i have found that no matter how well you think you have vetted someone there always the potential for someone to lie about there intentions and slip through the net! most purchasers with genuine interests arre happy to except the endorsements to safe guard themselves as much as the breeder. :)

There's no showing endorsement now, although there was one back in the 1970s. There were four possible endorsements then - can anyone remember what the fourth one was?

Don't worry, it's not tedious! :)

The fourth one was 'name unchangeable', Jan - don't need to go as far back as the 70s though, definitely still being used in 1987 as I bought a dog with it on then.

M.

I th8nk that the four endorsements were still around itno the mid 90's as they were available when I bred my first litter in 95, and for a while after.  The letters for the endorsements were changed and the showing and name ones removed.

As far as i know endorsing a pup against breeding - wont stop anybody breeding the dog - just stops them registering the pups?I think im right.
I suppose the theory is people wont buy an un-kc pup?

Well thats the advice generaly given on here, you should be asking why the potential pup is not KC registered. As in many things these endorsements are not water tight, and people do go ahead and ignore them, but the breeder is just trying to protect the dog and the breed too.

endorsements have to be put on when you register pups- usually at birth- so you may not always know who the owners are going to be at that stage.

Quite, I register my pups at about 2 weeks old at which time I don't know which I will be keeping or who will be having which of the others and whether any of them will be of the quality or health to be bred from.

Also the endorsements mean that the potential breeder will need to stay in touch and go to some trouble, health screening having pup evaluated etc.  Many who are not going to be commited enough will balk at the cost and responsibility and will not embark on breeding, or at least will realise the responsibilities and commitment needed.

These people if they had a pup without endorsement might just nr ill advised enough to think Ooh lets mate her to the dog around the corner, or be persuaded by an unscrupulous bitch owner to let them use their male at stud.

This happens all the time with unregistered litters, but at least it won't be my carefully thought out breeding plans being ruined.

I have seen pedigrees where there ia a famous (usually male) ancestor at the very back of some really ropey pedigrees, with the dog being KC registered. 

The breeder of a very famous Samoyed would be appalled at the poor quality (barely resembling it's breed in looks or character) descendant of this dog that a relative of mine owns, bought as an uncastrated monorchid at a year old for £250 (when well bred pups were about £400).

I too endorse all pups in a litter - and will have to lift the endorsements on the two I have kept if and when I decide to breed either of them.

Margot

Hi michelled

Playing the devils advocate here!!!!!
Do some breeders "hide" behind endorsements as a means of using lines with health problems, instead of using health tested "clear" lines?

I don't quite understand how this would work.  If your stock is health tested the results, certainly of hip dysplasia, are made public and breeding from a line with problems will immediately flag a breeder up as irresponsible in this instance.  The pups could be endorsed so as not to be bred from but there would still be a public record that would show they came from parents at risk from hip dysplasia and the pups also at risk.  On making an approach to the breeder to have the endorsement raised, the relevant health checks would have to be made, again very public, and the dog to be of a good age to breed and then the breeder would have to decided if he or she should lift the endorsement.  

It is impossible to hide behind this kind of public record. 

Can you say exactly what you mean by this so that I can try to reason it out.

i dont endorse but i put a clause in my contracts that say's if the pup is not desexed by 8 months of age it would have to be returned to me. My contracts arnt legally binding because you would have to have the signatures witnessed but i spend at least 5 months in contact with my new owners (before breeding. after breeding, and they wait for pups to grow up  until they can go to their new homes) so by then the people feel like my friend and they wouldnt want to dissapoint me plus i also give a rebate back if they do it by 8 months. I dont do it because they are from a bad blood line i do it because these people know my breed but the dont know anything about breeding. i on occasions (only a couple of times) have sold a pup to a well known responsible breeder in which case the contract is different.

but i recently had a nine year old dog which i had bred have hip dysplasia it is the first one out of my litters who has had it because i breed with good hip scores of both stud and bitch.

Hi Slee

Sorry to hear about your dog.  Clearly this couldn't be foretold when the dog was bred as you have done the relevant tests.  I guess things can happen along the way which may alter the status of your stock but taking care as you have to try an ensure this doesn't happen you are not at fault, but I am sure you know that. 

What I am finding difficult to understand is the message which I have quoted in italics from michelled's post.  How can anyone hide behind endorsements.  I don't understand where that is coming from, perhaps I am being a bit thick but I cant see anyone putting their reputation at risk by breeding from bad stock.  This is a reference to to Michelleds post not yours slee.

i actually dont think it is overally relevenyt to HD as its not entirly genetic. im more thinking of eye & hearing tests,epliepsy etc.

Also i have a problem "understanding" the idea of "SELLING" something to someone &  the person who has bought it not having full control over it!

Do the KC charge for endorsements to be put on and or lifted?

i dont "disagree" with endorsements full stop, but have my doubts about how they are sometimes used.

I do not have any problem with breeding endorsements because I never want to breed, therefore it is not an issue for me.  If I DID want to breed I would make sure that the dog I bought was purchased with that in mind.

However I certainly would NEVER agree to buy a dog on the condition it was neutered, I do know of breeders who have made this a condition of sale however it would not suite me. Just because I do not wish to breed does not necessarily mean I wish to put my dog under GA JUST to satisfy the person from whom I bought my dog.  And if I DID wish to neuter it would be MY choice AND I would decide the age it was suitable.

I agree with Tohme.  Personally, I like to wait until they are at least 18-24months before "desexing"/neutering them.  I would never neuter an 8 month old pup because I believe s/he needs the hormones produced by the testes and ovaries to fully mature mentally if not physically. 

"you cant get what you aint got" someone once told me!

>"you cant get what you aint got" someone once told me! <

Never could get my head around this saying and never thought it made any logical sense :-) as soon as you use or buy something you can "Get" anything.  You can also " got " a lot of things but unless you spot it or someone else does you don't know half the time what you have got ;-)

Just think of dogs the same as us!!  We weren't all born with the illnesses that we have.  Some of them aren't hereditary but we can still get them :rolleyes:

Restrictions are put on to safeguard the dog as much as possible and you know tht if someone doesn't want restrictions on their puppy then that means that they are out to breed and won't care less about their dogs only about what financial means they will end up with.

All of my dogs have restrictions on them, but if the people want to breed in a couple of years time, that the dog is a good example of the breed (not necessarily for showing but has all the atributes that the breed needss) and if they have carried out the tests on the breed as required, once I have proof of all this I then lift the restriction which is free to do and they are lifted quickly.

but if things arent hereditary the dog cant pass them on? im confused?

i see that it translates as this. (really easy examples .so i dont confuse myself)

if your lines only include B&W border colours on both sides,you are never ever going to  get a tri colour.

equally,if your dogs are gentically CEA clear you are never ever going to get it in your pups.

So if something that is purely genetic,be it a positve thing or a negative thing,then its come from somewhere.!!!!

ahh Michelle here is where the twists come in genetics :-))

hypothetical Example using say CMO..

You have 5 generations of your own breeding all appear healthy and well and a bonus top winning line. This is 15 years of a stong bitch line..can you imagine the disaster of wiping it out. It happens.

Your 6th generation litter produces 2 CMO affected puppies ;-)  there is no actual 100% test at the moment, the gene is resessive. Your 5th generation bitch HAS to be a carrier.. where did it come from ?

I am a great believer in the " no trumpet to blow" theory or "the never say never".  :-)

fair point! what is CMO?

<a class='url' href='http://www.westieclubamerica.com/health/cmo.html'>http://www.westieclubamerica.com/health/cmo.html</a>

It affects many breeds just took this link from the first one that came up in google.

BTW it is an awful condition for the dogs.

Thanks for replying - i found there is now only 2 as somebody told me to go to the KC website - which i obv did :-)

HI Sarah I see your question has been answered but just wanted to add that most people use them for the good of the breed honestly. Not to hide anything infact quite the opposite. As humans we can do as we wish with animals sadly so "WE" have to protect the breed with whatever tools there is.

Yes you will get the odd person who may abuse things BUT they are in the minority and we must always remember this.  The majority thankfully are the good ones :-)

If in doubt talk to the breed club

Ok more questions,sorry.just interested in your opinions!
what happens if the "breeder" falls out with the owner & wont lift the restrictions? yet the dog is to breed standard & passed all health tests?

Once restrictions come off can the breeder put them back on?

Do any of you breeders ever want a "input" on what dog or bitch is used? & will only lift them if you are happy with that?

>Once restrictions come off can the breeder put them back on?

No, endorsements can only be placed by the breeder whilst the dog is registered to them and physically in their ownership. Once the puppy has left the premises it's too late.

>what happens if the "breeder" falls out with the owner & wont lift the restrictions? yet the dog is to breed standard & passed all health tests?<

Good question Michelle.

This is where you have to be clever with who you deal with and how the contract is written. Again though this only happens with the minority , the majority all go well.  :-) Nothing is bomb proof.

I have never had any trouble at all with any agreements I have done. 

its all very interesting.

another time when "health tests" would be justified if it was a  1at time outcross between two lines not mated before, i guess that would be sensible as there would be little idea of how the pups would turn out. wether anything nasty was thrown up, or the lines just did not gel.

Will anyone who endorses not lift on grounds of temperment?

sorry ,another question!!

has any one who endorses lifted the endorsements for dogs that are kept as pets,& not shown?

>Will anyone who endorses not lift on grounds of temperment? <

If I thought it was  real suspect behavioural and not badly raised without a doubt. This could be another debatable one though about who determines what is acceptable and what isn't. Not one I am going to get into on here , I alway stay away from threads where these things are debated ;-)

Hi Michelled i do agree with some of your points but i personally wouldn't lift an endorsement on a pet dog.  The reason being is that dog probably has faults and that's why it's gone to a pet home in the first place, this is in an ideal world of cause where the breeder knows what he's looking for and has the experience to put a pet in a pet home.

Warm regards Susan

There are probably as many or more potential champions in my breed sitting in purely pet homes. 

You often get only Pet enquiries when you ahve lovely pups, adn after all is said and doen the pup needs a home, and if there is no suitable dhow home for it then it goes in a pet home.

Any number of champions have been made up in my breed that were only going to be Pets, but either came back to the breeder or the owenrs decided to have a go at showing and did well.

To Michelled, why would you lift the endorsement on a deog that was not going to be bred from?

Most of my breed go to "pet homes" and yes I have lifted restrictions when they've had all the health tests carried out and then the people have come to me to ensure that their dog/bitch goes to the right dog/bitch.

I would also have thought that in any breed there are a number of dogs out there that are in pet homes that are far more superiopr than the ones in the show ring.  I know I've seen some Weimeraner's recently and also a Sharpei on and a Dogue de Bordeaux that were nicer than many that I've seen at champ shows.  The person with the Dogue de Bordeaux is actually going to show her this year and I believe that one of the pups did well at the recent DDB show.

Hiya
We bred our first litter in January, and we endorsed all the puppies. I didnt register them until they were 4 weeks old. Before we bred the litter we met with our prospective puppy owners, I explained to them that their puppy will be endorsed. In my puppy pack that I gave them, when they eventually took one of my puppies home, I explained what the endorsements were (I had told them before, but sometimes you can get information overload - I know it well - so thought it would be nice that they could digest it later) They completely understood why I did it, we are very happy with the people that we sold the puppies to, We have seen them all since leaving us, and they love their dogs, and are very happy with them. We know we made the right choise, in who we sold to.

In my contract I also stipulate that if they decide to get rid of the dog at any stage of its life, they are not to sell it, or give it to anyone else, but I get first refusal, either I will take it, or I will find another home for it. I do have this written in the contract, along with the fact that the puppy is endorsed, and what the endorsements are, they sign it, and I sign it.

This doesnt stop them breeding from the puppy, exporting it, or getting rid of it. However it does make them think twice, and to be honest, I dont think that any of our puppy owners would do any of those things - but you never know! The main thing is that all of our puppies are lovely healthy dogs, very happy in their homes, and their owners love them to bits. They are going to have their 1st birthday on 20th January!! Time really does fly!

Rachel

Yes but there again shouldn't you only be breeding if you have a waiting list Brainless? 

Harlistream you do sound like a genuine loving breeder, all the best with your twelve month olds.

Warm regards Susan

Yes but the majority on any waiting list will be Pet owners, even when there are promising pups in the litter. 

Just because there are no show enquiries I would still want to produce a litter that should hopefully have pups worthy of being shown and or contribute to the breeds gene pool.

You still need to breed from your stock to see what it can produce and then to be able to make the appropriate choice of what to keep to produce your next generation.

Many of those wanting to show end up not doing so and those who had no intention end up showing.

i mean on a "pet" dog that the owners wishes to have a litter from.

It would depend if it was 'pet-only' quality or not. If it was a mismark or a unilateral, no I wouldn't.