Ziggy the 3 1/2 mo old BC is generally well-behaved and patient, however after an hour or so of playing or sitting he will start snapping, even biting. What can I so about this? How do I get it through to him he can't bite or snap just cos he's bored/tired. He really hurts too sometimes. :( I say NO in a loud voice and tap him on the head and it seems to make him worse, he starts barking and snapping at your hands and he bears his teeth too, snarling. :( I just don't know what to do to stop him. I just don't want him snapping at the wrong person and end up hurting someone. :(

Thanks for any advice,

CG

Hi, for information, do you take him to puppy/training classes? What's he like there? What's he like outside the home with people and dogs you meet? Where did he come from? Did you see his parents and get the chance to see what their temperament was like? It sounds like it's more than play-biting, or is that how it starts? Sorry for the inquisition but it helps to complete the picture.
LynnT

OK, here goes. Ziggy has not been to classes yet, We should go, we haven't heard back from them yet :( He is ace with people, really friendly with other dogs, a real sweetheart. He came from a pet shop, so I never saw him with his parents :( He just snaps after a time, say 1-2 hours of activity and he is bored. Also when we are trying to discipline him, he snaps and snarls. It's only sometimes, not every time which makes it harder to pin-point the trigger.

There are an awful lot of snappy bcs around, because there are a lot of clever dogs not doing enough to keep their minds occupied. There are also some who just don't have a good temperament. Hopefully Ziggy is just bored and not bad! I really would chase up that training, and I'd consider doing something like clicker training to make him use his brain. Having to think things out in a training session can wear him out faster than a walk could.Try looking at www.learningaboutdogs.com, and also see if there's anyone who runs classes in your area. If you do a search on Champdogs there was a thread asking about clicker training in the last couple of weeks. He's obviously way too young for the likes of agility or flyball, but maybe they will be things to look to for the future (at about eighteen months old).
I have to admit I've been very lucky with my collies in that they have all been soft as butter! I've never had to train one that's shown any aggression beyond the initial play-biting, and they don't get to do that more than a few times! I'm hoping some of the other posters will be able to advise you on that score. Whatever the cause of the problem, it really needs sorting now!
Good luck
LynnT

HI there

I do agree it would be a good idea to chase up those classes, and yes, if you can get him learning with clicker training it will help him use his collie brain - CT does make does extremely mentally tired, so go easy on it, but it is such great fun!!

It may be that he is snapping because if you do tap him on the head, a natural instinct for a collie is to react to that movement. Also because they are so incredibly sensitive, yet have to have a bit of force fulness in their nature to deal with stock, they can combine a scaredy nature with being nippy....if you see what i mean!! Does that make sense?! :)

Personally i would not discipline him in any way but voice, and the puppy class will show you how to deal with nipping....initially distract him with a fav. toy. Collies will usually respond well to this, and will often, once they get the hang of it, rush to grab the toy rather than hands, ankles etc.

If he is nipping when tired, if at all possible just leave him to rest. When you knowhim better, you will be able to judge his ways more easily, but imho it is best not to intentionally put hin in a sitution where he may nip.

Don't forget to praise lavishly when he does the right thing, even just lying calmly, tell him "Good boy". This is so important, as he wil understand how to please you :)

Althougn no-one want a nippy dog, don't forget it is partly instinct and he wont be like it for ever. DO get a cope of "The Perfect Puppy" because it helps with all this sort of thing in more detail than one can go into on the board. It is avaiilable from www.crosskeysbooks.com

And finally - don't panic LOL!!! It is so easy with a pup - i know i have had a few panic attacks before now, worrying about puppy stuff. It does all come right in the end with oodles of patience and help of a good trainer :)

lIndsay

Lindsay wrote:
<Don't forget to praise lavishly when he does the right thing, even just lying calmly, tell him "Good boy". This is so important, as he wil understand how to please you >

Praising lavishly when laying calmly may well have a winding up effect :-)

However, I agree with the theory and if he is laying quietly say, in a calm, quiet voice so he doesn't get up, "Settle, gooooood to Settle". Settle can then ultimately be used as a useful command to settle down quietly, sitting or laying - dog's choice, whilst you want to get on with something else.

I hope you like being active CG as with a lively BC you will probably need to to keep his mind as well as body active :-)

Christine

HI Christine

Yes, you're quite right of course :), praising "lavishly" will probably cause an excitable reaction, if the dog is lying down quietly. Just what the owner doesn't want!

I was of course trying to get the point across that it is SO important to let the dog know when he is doing something right, even if it is just lying down.....so often we all focus on what is wrong, h0w is a pup or dog meant to know what is acceptable and desired behaviour.

I completely agree with the way you describe the "Settle" and how useful it can be, and when the pup is relaxed, lying down, it would indeed be useless to praise excitedly; as you say, it needs to be calm and soothing voice-wise :)

Best wishes
Lindsay

Hi,
Being only 3 1/2 months old, a complete hour + of playing just might be too long for Ziggy. After all, he's only a young puppy. Snapping could be his way of saying "enough". Watch him to see if there's signs of becoming overtired. Does he try to disengage before he starts snapping? Does he yawn, try to ignore toy, or attempt to wander off. Are you pushing him to continue playing? (Losing interest isn't necessarily being bored). Attempting to discipline when he's over tired will likely just make the situation worse.

Sure, dogs aren't supposed to bite humans, but he might have figured out that's the only way to make it understood that he has had enough. After all, he can't throw a tantrum like a toddler does :D It's probably his version of one. After all, it does stop the playing.

Best suggestion from my opinion is to make his "playtime" much shorter and spread them out through the daytime. 15-20 minutes several times a day is better than a complete hour or more at once. You end it long before he loses interest or becomes overtired. Put him outside and give him a break, then put him to bed. Control the situation and don't set him up for failure (biting). Work him up to longer time periods over the months, if that's what he needs.
good luck,
toodles

Cutey ;)

Have you got the book "Understanding Border Collies" by Barbara Sykes? She also has a website:

mainline border collies

I think her book is very good and it might answer some of your questions.

9th & The Grumpy Collie

There's another one I meant to recommend, too, called "Understanding the Border Collie" !!!

It is by Carol Price, published fairly recently, and has lovely cartoon-style drawings in it.

Lindsay

funnily enough, if we don't overtire or overplay with him, he doesn't snap. In fact he hasn't snapped for a while. I think it may be my fault that I allowed him to play too long and not heed him when he was tired :( You know how it is with a new puppy, you just play and play and there is no restraint!!! He went to puppy class and he was pretty good! Except he whined and barked a bit, think he was getting bored!!!

Thanks for all your help. This board is great :) :) :)

p.s. How do you get a selection of smilies that everyone uses here??? Only :) :( work for me!!! Thought it might be more fun to add some different icons!!!

Hi CG

If you click onto Help, when you are writing you posts..scroll down...and it tells you how to put them into your text..:D

HTH

Natasha

Have a look in "Help" at the top of the screen. They are all in there. plus other stuff ;)

John

Thanks :))

~ All things Forum ~ :-)