I will say my main point again.  Extreme breeding (as is done nowadays more than ever) has brought about many problems, both healthwise and temperament.  Interbreeding cannot be good full stop.  Using the same dogs time after time throughout pedigrees cannot be good.  Concentrating purely on looks cannot be good.  This type of planned breeding has caused nearly all these health defects in the first place!!

Good night, and Happy Christmas, Goldmali.  May all your dogs be up to scratch in the show ring.

LOL! I think you'll find if you went and got hold of some old copies of the dog papers (and F&F as that included cats then) , people said the same thing about "extreme breeding" a hundred years ago. :)

As JG said, INTERBREEDING is mating together UNrelated individuals of different breeds. INbreeding is mating together close relatives , and this CANNOT cause any problems, it can ONLY bring to the fore what is already there. Therfore, it is SAFER to carefully line breed (more prefable to inbreeding) as you will not have any hidden surprises. If you always outcross then one day inevitably you will mate together two individuals that carrry the same fault. If you do some pedigree research in whatever breeds you're most interested in, you will actually find that dogs were inbred a LOT more 100+ years ago then they are now.

Showing is NOT actually "concentrating purely on looks". A show dog has to be of sound movement, which means it has to be correctly put together and function well which surely is essential for a pet, it has to be of good temperament, and of course it has to be in excellent conditon to do well. Its bite has to be correct . Hand on heart, does your bitch have such a good temperament that she would allow a total stranger to examine her at Crufts near to the main ring with the flyball going on with all the shouting without freaking out, total strangers throwing their arms around her neck without asking for permission first, and coping with all that such a show entails? Only dogs of good temperament can do it, and as such showing  does help to promote good temperament.

Personally I firmly believe any good dog should be capable of doing it ALL .Whatever it's orignal purpose was AND look like its breed as well. And be healthy AND have a good temperament. That makes a good dog. The complete package, not one or the other. :)

Yes thank you, my dogs are actually doing very nicely in the show ring at the moment -except for the crossbreeds of course as they can only go to companion shows!

Won't be online tomorow now I'd guess as tomorrow is christmas and we'll be having our dinner and presents and then I'll be back when it is all over i.e. on Christmas Day. (Bet I'll be lonely here then ROFL.)

Me too goldmali going to Dads tommorrow night, pressies, midnight mass, and then sleep in on Christmas day, and a late dinner.

Yes I agree we understand genetics more now (well those who do it properly), have health tests to help eliminate the problems bred in originally, and a lot less really close breeding is done.

Anyone that chooses a pedigree over a mongrel must be condoning purebred breeding, and the shop window for evaluating breeding stock in most breeds is the showring. 

Most pet owners choose their purebred pup on looks, not on working ability, so the showring breed standard is what they are thinking of, and deserve someone breeding properly to it.

Those who want a pet regardless of looks or background have plenty to choose from in the rescue centres.

I do have my dogs because I show.  If I didn't show or breed I would choose to have just one or at most two at a time and leave soemone else to do the breeing for me when I wanted the next one, rather than maintaining a family line of my own, and having to keep at least 4 or 5 to do so.

Brainless you definitely have the wrong user name, it should be Sensible. :) :) :) Good night!

ok there is so much more that can be done but i would prefer my dogs to have a shorter life but with less pain and suffering than a longer life just cos it can be done.

more can be done theses days but how much stress are you putting your dog thro to keep them alive - trips to the vets every month for inj, tablets shoved down their throuts perhaps 2x daily, creams continually put on sore parts. as i said above i would much rather my dogs to have a brilliant short life than a long less than good long life. they are only going to remember the last weeks of their life as misery and pain when at the end the outcome is the same - WE CAN'T STOP DEATH it is going to happen at some point so why not let nature be.

i think there are good and bad things about the past and present breeding techniques. and everyone is entitled to thier opinion.

anyways i am not here to get into an aurgument, i take on board everyones opinions and decide myself whether i wish to agree with parts or not, i just wish that everyone was alowed their opinion with out being scared that you will get a reply that makes you feel like your advise and p of v are useless.
a nice comment goes a long way

Anna, I have mailed you.

WE CAN'T STOP DEATH it is going to happen at some point so why not let nature be.

I think you missed my point -the point being that these days so much can be done to PREVENT illness that dogs live longer.(I.e. you can x-ray for HD etc, you can DNA test for various eye diseases, etc etc. So no need to bring into the world a litter of pups that will be doomed to be unhealthy.) Nobody ever said you should make them suffer -or try to make them live as long as possible! Goddness I'd be the first person to say so. My Cavalier has been on heart medication for years, you chuck his pill in his food once a day and he never even notices, he sees the vet every 6 months and he enjoys these visits, and he's one of the happiest dogs ever. If I had just let "nature" take its course he'd have been dead years ago -but why should he when he is 100 % HAPPY.

i must have read you r post wrong. sory. hope i did not offend you. i do agree with a lot of things you say i was just bringing in some other comments as well.

sorry again

very glad taht your dogs are doing well and hope you r success continues for a long time

happy christmas and have a good new year.

sorry

anna

No problem Anna ad have a graat xmas! I'm just off to cook our dinner now as I'm swedosh and today's the day (so what am I doing here LOL!!)

Jayne uk,

Can I ask as someone who has had lots of lovely rescue 'moggy' (Domestic shorthair) cats in the past - why you are breeding & selling moggies when the CPL's & animal rescue centres are inundated with cats & kittens looking for good homes?  I would genuinely like to know because it always surprises me why pet females & males are not neutered by 6 months old & the subsequent kittens arrive after a free stud from the local tom!

I am not breeding and selling moggies.  I have had a couple of litters in the past though.  I only have one cat now, and she is spayed.

I think you should be asking your question to anyone who breeds pedigree cats too, like Goldmali (or is it Brainless - sorry I can't remember which).  Also to anyone who breeds dogs, pedigree or not.  After all, places are full of rescue dogs looking for homes too.  Why is anyone breeding anything, when there are thousands waiting for homes in rescue centres???

Oh, I see you breed dogs yourself, which makes your question total nonsense lol.

Most reputable breeders are only too willing to take back any of 'their' puppies (at whatever age) to help rehome them. The thousands in rescue centres are there either because their new owners haven't contacted the breeder of their dog (very rude) or the breeder doesn't care (bad breeder).

Jayne,

You have missed the point, most reputable breeders who breed either cats or dogs will do so with a waiting list for the wanted puppies or kittens after gaining a reputation for having shown stock successfully or worked it in whatever field they chose to take.

Moggie cats come from the result of indiscrimate breeding from 2 parents of unknown history.  I think it has been stated elsewhere that 2 out of 5 pet cats carry the Feline Aids virus as well as maybe being carriers for leukaemia etc.   Pedigree kittens cannot leave their breeder until 13 weeks old prior to which they will be fully vaccinated.   CPL's are full of moggie cats all looking for homes, lots placed in foster homes too, why breed more when there are so many needing homes?

Most breeds have their own rescue societies to take care of unwanted animals if the breeder cannot/won't take them back.   In the case of moggie cats, they go to the already jam packed CPL/RSPCA etc.   Or in the case of x-breed dogs/mongrels these are the ones that normally fill rescue centres like Battersea & NCDL's.

And you are a breeder whether you breed 1 litter or 100!

Then why don't all the people on the waiting lists get a dog or cat from a rescue home to free up a place?  And why do breeders breed when there are so many looking for homes?  If breeders stopped breeding, then all those people who would had had a dog/cat from them could get them from a rescue home instead :-)

Where are you going to get a pet dog or cat from in 15-20 years if breeders stop breeding????

Because breeders wat to preserve thir breed and people want a particular breed.

This is why we don't approve of breeding without a purpose 9other than producing pups), and those who state they don't care what their pups loks like as they only want a pet shoudlb e going to rescues for the lovely just pet dogs that are there, rather than being ahppy to pay for substandard pedigree stock from breeders with not ethics, or no knowledge.

It is interesting that it is the good breeders who breed fewer and fewer litters because of dogs in rescue, yet theose who shouldn't be breeding prodcue more and more.

In the past most reputable breeders bred several litters a year, but now the same breeders feel almost guilty for breeding a litter or two.

1) Because many people want a 'clean slate' puppy, not an adult dog with the baggage that often goes with rescues.
2) Because many people want a particular breed.

And many people don't.  Many people want a moggie or a mongrel too.

Yes but there are already lots & lots of moggies out there from indiscrimate breedings - eg. young female kitten not recognised being 'in call' by her owner and gets let out to get mated by the local Tom - to serve the purpose of those who want moggies without purposely breeding more.    AND when I was looking for another cat, the prices charged  by these 'moggie' breeders was eye watering...I got my pedigree cat from a very reputable breeder for not much more than some over these over inflated moggie prices and my kitten came fully vaccinated too and from very healthy stock.

And that's where the general rescue centres come in. The only time deliberately to breed a moggie (my choice of cat, actually) or a mongrel is when the rescue centres are empty ....

LOL I give up.  Are you actually pretending or are you being serious??

I thought you were the one being fatuous. :rolleyes: I'm afraid that, unlike you, I consider the bringing of life into the world to be of the utmost importance.

The only time deliberately to breed a moggie (my choice of cat, actually) or a mongrel is when the rescue centres are empty ....

Hi all, have had my christmas dinner and the pressies and even done all the washing up! :)

Just to add to JG: and when all the relevant health testing has been done prior to mating, and the kittens/puppies are reared correctly, sold at the correct age etc. :)

And that ALL breeders had to take responsibility for the pups/kittens they bred (unless they were dead or unable for some genuine reason).

How often so you hear the people breeding from their pet saying "I'm not a breeder"  as if that absolves them of responsibility.

I am done Christmassing for the night to, not doing Midnight mass, will go in the morning :D

How often so you hear the people breeding from their pet saying "I'm not a breeder"  as if that absolves them of responsibility.

Yes, saw an advert only the other day on one of the dog papers' website about puppies, "We are not breeders, our bitch is just a loving family pet, this is her second litter".  :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:  Bit like saying you're not a parent unless you've had 5 kids!

>dead or unable for some genuine reason

Dead seems like a pretty genuine reason to me :D
Merry Christmas, all, sleep well so Santa can set about bringing you lots of lovelies

Nah, being dead's a borderline excuse! ;) :D

That's a corker, isn't it?

"I'm not a breeder, but my bitch had a litter 2 weeks ago ..."

Der! :rolleyes:

I hear it all the time from puppy buyers comign to training class.  We bought her from a lovely lady, she wasn't a breeder, she just had pets and let them have puppies.

This makes me wonder what people think a breeder is???

I love that.  I am most definately not a parent.  I only had two kids and realised I shouldn't have done it, can someone take them off my hands please!

jayneuk------   why would genuine breeders who are breeding quality dogs stop breeding so that the world would be full of others mistakes and indiscriminate breeding, breeding dogs that we know will look a certain way and have certain characteristics, surely they  are the ones that should continue not those that just breed anything to  any other regardless, its these careless people that should get their house in order and youd find the shelters  less taxed  with mongrels/crossbreeds.

Exactly bowers. :) It would also only encourage the prices to go higher and higher.

I find it rather telling that the only people who speak FOR (or don't see anything wrong in it) unregistered puppies/kittens are those producing them or owning them and the only people speaking for breeding from pet animals that are unshowable and are not worked, are the ones producing them.

Yes. There are plenty of us who recognise that some of our well-bred pedigree animals, delightful as they are, will never in a million years be good enough to breed from! They're not loved or valued any less, but they're thankfully genetic dead-ends. :)

Well....I'm still waiting for an answer to my original question - why breed more moggies when the CPL is full of unwanted cats & kittens?  I'm really curious as breeding from my pedigree cat is something I haven't chosen to do this past year, although I was told I should've by several cat breeders - next year after a lot of looking around & studying what stud cats are at public stud, I will hopefully mate her.   She has 1 CC already, I'd really like the other 2 this winter and I feel at least I have started with an animal that's a good representative of it's breed & this has been echoed by 3 judges!

AND Jayne I am serious about this question!

I apologise in advance if I it has already been addressed, as I haven't read the whole post, as I got down to the snotty, scary comments dissecting someone's grammar!  Just a question: for a puppy to be KC registered, do their Sire and Dam 'Have' to have heath checks?

No, for puppies to be registered the only requirements are that a) both sire and dam must be KC registered, and be of the same breed; b) neither must have endorsements banning the registration of progeny; c) sire and dam have been transferred to their owners; d)the bitch must be over the age of 12 months, under the age of 8 years, and had less than 6 litters.

The reason health checks aren't (yet) included is that nobody can agree which ones are required for each breed. Reputable breeders will, of course, have had the tests done voluntarily.

Irish Setters had to be tested free of CLAD I believe came in July this year ?

You could be right. I can't find any reference to that on the KC website though.

Breed clubs have their own requirements of course, but that has no bearing on KC rules.

108.05 CLAD IN THE IRISH SETTER
Monday, 13 June, 2005

Canine Leucocyte Adhesion Deficiency (CLAD) is an inherited disease in the Irish Setter and a specific DNA test has been available in the UK since 2000 to determine whether an individual dog is clear of, a carrier of or affected by CLAD.

As per the breed control scheme, that has been in place for several years, the Kennel Club would like to remind breeders that, from the 1 st July 2005, the Kennel Club will only register Irish Setters that are proven clear of the CLAD mutation, either by direct DNA testing or by being hereditarily clear of CLAD, by virtue of having both parents clear of CLAD. No CLAD carriers, affecteds or Irish Setters where the genetic status is not known will be registered after June 30 th 2005. Details for the CLAD DNA Test can be obtained from Dr Nigel Holmes, The Animal Health Trust, Lanwades Hall, Kentford, Newmarket, Suffolk, CB8 7UU.

13/6/05

Excellent! :)

LOl I knew I had the press release somewhere

Of course the ISDS insist on all breeders being members(stud dog & bitch owners)before the puppies can be registered & only only certain puppies will be registered(like a second class registration too called a T certificate)can be registered from untested parents. I can see they will eventually insist on DNA tests before accepting mating cards(you have to send in a confirmation of mating if you are the stud dog owner)in the not so far future. They were  the only dog register in the UK to insist on eye tests Dogs with the T certificate cannot have puppies registered until their parents are eye/DNA tested over 2 years of age. Have a look at their site http://www.isds.org.uk/services/index.htm

What breed have you got Christine? Sadly I've found in my breeds these days it is impossoble to find a public stud. :( In fact I am on the very verge of losing my lines after 16 years because of it -see upcoming article in Our Cats 30th Dec! (I was allowed free rein to moan, LOL!!) I've got Persians & Exotics.

Hi Goldmali,

I have a BSH black tipped (39).   I have - luckily - found a stud to take her too although she has to be tested pre-mating, I think I will get her PKD tested too as this seems to be the way to go.    The cattery where the stud belongs to also have exotics too, infact I'm sure Barbara is quite high up in the club.  I wuld like CC's No.2 & 3 beforehand though!

Tippies are a hard breed as they tend to be a bit smaller than most normal BSH varieties and the coat length will never be as short but most respectable judges will take that into account - unfortunately I don't seem to have found those  judges yet!   Although Zelli is a good size for a tippie!

Ah yes I do know her! :) Love the colour. I have some Shaded Silver Exotics myself which are pretty similar of course. Good on you for doing he PKD testing. Good luck with it all!!!!! Oh, BTW, although I've had queens that got 1 or even 2 CCs, then had a litter and never got the final one, my ifrst Exotic who is a Shaded (now 12) had 3 litters then took her show career up again aged 7 as a neuter and got made up in 3 straight shows!

I wouldn't "buy"a cross breed I had a X breed that I rescued aged between 7 & 9 for 11 1/2 years. she had so many health problems it was unbelieveable(so much for the alleged hybrid vigor of mongrels)She was a nervous little scrap & had been dumped after having had several(in my vets opinion)litters & ran wild for three months being a bag of bones when I found her. I wouldn't pass her on as TBH no one else would have had her & she would have been PTS.

However I like to show  & work my dogs & she was way too frightened ever to do obedience etc

I prefer to own a pedigree dog because that is my choice & I do not breed but choose to buy a puppy from known background of healthy dogs when I do.

I've only ever owned moggies(all neutered BTW)

Your Utopia would leave the breeder of my puppy with no dogs to work his sheep, my police dog handlers with no dogs etc Hardly realistic

I also work with GSD rescue & nearly all the dogs that come in are from pet/puppy farm bred litters. I hate it when I ask callers why they haven't gone back to the breeder with their no longer wanted pet say"Oh it was a one off litter they aren't breeders" Sorry if it's pedigree, KC reg or mongrel if your bitch has a litter you are a breeder & as such responsible for the puppies from birth to death

Likewise ;)

I have owned one crossbreed (an accidental mating, the dog got over the fence and they didn't know the bitch was in season :( )  We got him whe he was 2 and although adorable, he was the most expensive dog I have ever owned :(  He must have cost us hundreds over the years in vets bills - and he never was cured, his condition was only ever 'managed' :(  Not one of our pedigree dogs has had anything above the routine vet visits and all have lived to 17/18 :)

Our moggie cat was also a disaster, the most unhappy, nervous animal (she was going to be PTS the day after we got her as a kitten :( )  we eventually rehomed her to a home which she chose after I had vetted them and was a much happier cat :rolleyes: In contrast our pedigree cats have been well adjusted, sociable, healthy companions.  My present OAP is now 18 and has been remarkably healthy.

Our moggie cat was also a disaster, the most unhappy, nervous animal (she was going to be PTS the day after we got her as a kitten :-( )  we eventually rehomed her to a home which she chose after I had vetted them and was a much happier cat rolleyes In contrast our pedigree cats have been well adjusted, sociable, healthy companions.

Yes this is exactly why I have pedigrees -although I always have at least 2 rescued mogs as well, they tend to just "appear". :) When I got my first cat 28 years ago the one impressison he gave me of cats was that they were bad tempered and unpredicatble and quite boring.  Then I stared working as a vet nruse and got to know Persians, and I was like WOW! It's like a different animal altogether! Of course there can be fantastic moggies (after all, many are shown and show mogs do have to be perfect temperament wise as that is the no 1 priority) but pedigrees are a much safer bet -exactly as in dogs, as you know what you'll get. No big surprises. :)

"No big surprises."

You said it ;)

Our moggie was beautiful but temperament was unpredictable to say the least :(  On the odd occasion that she would sit on your lap and accept attention (when she wasn't hiding and growling ;( ) it was touch and go whether she'd take your arm off after a minute or two we lost count of the number of times she drew blood, and it would happen so fast!!  Truth was tho, she didn't choose us and we didn't really choose her :( (as she was going to be PTS the next day :( )  She had had little or no socialization, and the parents weren't 'pets' either really, the litter was just not really wanted  :(

In contrast the pedigrees have been loving affectionate companions unfazed by anything and welcoming to all visitors :D

I think the key with owning moggies is that they really do have to choose you for it to work ;)

I have to echo what Goldmali says.  I have always had moggie cats and they have been well tempered with me & my family but have always been a tad nervous.   Now having a pedigree - a British Shorthair - reknown for their laidback, lazy temperaments - what a difference!