Hiya Folks
I am the proud new owner of a Cocker Spaniel puppy (nearly 8 week old).  She has come with what appears to be a very good pedigree (lots of FTCh's) plus 1 ShCh and 1 FTAW (I am assuming this is Field Trial Award).  Her parents appear to be KC registered,(both have KC numbers with thier names) but she is not.  Its a long story but basically the breeder was mid family breakup and registering the litter was last on her mind (so we are told).

My question:  How trustworthy are pedigrees and can you get them checked/verified?
Will I be able to register the puppy with the KC?

I apologise if this is the wrong place for this question, but I couldn't find where else to put it.

Thanks

You wont be able to register the pup with the KC it has to be the breeder unfortunalty :-(

Was she advertised as KC registered?

No she wasn't

Just had another thought - the pup maybe the 2nd litter the dam has had this year (sad but does happen) the KC will only let people reigster one litter of pups a year.

Aternitvly you can always contact the kennel club via email or phone giving the details of the parents and checking if they are kc reg - im not 100% sre (but someone else who see's this will) but i think people can get in trouble for making "fake" pedigree's. Not that im saying your pups is.

I would be worried that the pedigree isn't real.  It's easy enough to register pups and I'm sorry but unless it was a really bad break-up where the other person won't sign the papers there's no reason unless they were bred against KC rulings why they can't be registered.

Unfortunately Radleydog the KC definitely will allow 2 litters in a year to the same bitch and register the litter (as long as there is a 6 month gap between birth of pups)  it is only REGISTERED breeders who are not allowed more than one litter a year from a bitch.  Which I agree is completely topsy turvey, it should be one rule for all.

But, I also presume that this bitch must have been on her 3rd litter this year not to be registered, it is the only reason not to register or as suggested a faulse pedigree. It costs little to register a pup and ups the selling price, so there is usually a hidden reason not to register with the KC.

I would only ever trust a KC pedigree mollysmum.

uh i didnt know that lyssa - thats not really fair is it?is it the same rule for onl being able to register 6 litters in a dogs lifetime then?

Originally the rule applied to everybody but the KC changed it, I believe, in recoginition that small scale breeders were much less likely to abuse their bitches.  Having seen how healthy my bitch was after her, rather small litters, I have no doubt that some bitches would take breeding on their subsequent season in their stride so I would never be inclined to critisise someone who chooses to do this perhaps due to wishing a litter to be born in the summer months for instance and wanting them born while she is in her physical prime.  I have always need rather more time to recover myself though :)

How many litters or breeding bitches does someone have to have before being a registered breeder ?

I believe it varies council by council who do the licencing.  You have to check with your own one.

I think it depends on the particular council. Our local council state:

Dog Breeding Establishments

Anyone who breeds dogs as a business or produces, for sale, 5 or more litters of puppies per year needs to be licensed under the Breeding of Dogs Act 1973 amended by the Breeding and Sale of Dogs (Welfare) Act 1999. Hobby breeders are therefore normally exempt.

Conditions are imposed which restrict the number of litters that each bitch can have, require the identification of puppies and specify the records that must be kept.

5 litters per year is far, far too many from one breeder :(

As far as the KC are concerned (as opposed to local Council rulings, which may differ), anyone who breeds five or more litters in a rolling 12 month period - NOT a calendar year - is subject to this ruling.

M.

What needs to be remembered that some bitches come in season a bit earlier than others and even with a season between some can whelp the next litter a little under a year later. 

Other bitches only come in season say every 10 months, so breeding on the next season would not be reprehensible, as waiting almost two years, with always the possibility that the bitch might miss, be too old, or the stud be too old/unavailable.

There is also a good case for mating a bitch that has a singleton puppy on the next season.

These reasons are all legitimate ones for small scale breeders, whereas a commercial breeder will sadly have plenty of breeding bitches so each bitch is not vital in the same way in ensuring the line or whatever, and as has been said the small scale breeder is unlikely to take the maximum number of litters from a bitch anyway..

Hi Joshanna2,

A bitch can be breed and the litters KC reg'd until the age of 6, so I guess that officially she could have 12 litters by that age.

Maximum number of litters the KC will register to one bitch is 6 - and even that's far too many in my opinion!

M.

Too many Baileys today I'm afraid, just re-read my answer A bitch can be breed until she is 6 or until 6 litters. That's better!!!!

Until she is 8 :)

I'm off to have another Bailey's :-D

God, so some people who breed five litters a year, ten pups per litter, £1,000.00 per pup can earn £50,000 !!!!  

I didn't realise this.  I always thought that if you had more than 2 breeding bitches that you had to have a breeders licence?

Not many breeds sell for a grand a pup :) even then that is not what they will earn even the worst puppy farmer will have some overheads ;)

I wouldn't care about how GOOD a bitch looks, or how few pups she had in each litter...a bitch still NEEDS to recouperate fully before having another litter! It's rather like havng major surgery(something which unfortunatley I know far too much about!) Things might look ok and appear recovered, but in essence it takes a good 6 to 12 months for the body to recover to it's optimum. I sincerely believe it is the same for bitches!!!

Regards, Dawn

I don't think giving birth is anything like major surgery :)  It is a natural process which, when no complications occur, the body has fully adjusted for.  You are entitled to your opinion but it is not supported by the KC or many Breed Clubs. 
Even if it was like surgery I notice you say 6 to 12 months recovery, well that could still mean a bitch having a litter within a year even going by your perameters :)

REALLY??? I can't think of one breed club that would say it was okay to breed a bitch EVERY season??:rolleyes:

I'm sure there are plenty of 'breeders' out there that will no doubt put me in my place!!

Have you ever had a pregnancy Isabel??

I said it takes a GOOD 6 to 12 months to recover

Who said anything about every season!  Both the Breed Clubs I belong to allow a bitch to be bred from 2 out of 3 successive seasons.  No I have not had a baby but I have studied Anatomy and Physiology, in particular the female reproductive system and have had the privilege of seeing 4 normal deliveries and 2 sections, some years ago but I don't think it has changed that much :)
Anyway, we are talking about dogs, where whelping is generally very much easier, have you ever seen a litter born?

The Code of Conduct for at least one of the clubs for my breed states that bitches should not be bred from without an interval of at least 12 months from her last litter, except under veterinary advice; that no bitch should be bred from more than 4 times; and should not be bred from below the age of 2 years or over the age of 8 years.

Incidentally, following my own C-section, medical advice was that I shouldn't try to become pregnant again within 2 years.

I'm sure there will be other Breed Clubs the same, particularly the larger breeds, those that mature more slowly or those that tend to have large litters.  But this is not the case with all breeds and I don't think we can critisise breeders when the consensus of their club agree it is perfectly acceptable practice.
I'm not sure comparison with humans, particularly where complications occured is all that valid ;)

How long after a litter would you expect a bitch of your breed fit for the showring again? If she's not show-fit, she's certainly not breeding-fit.

I would not consider a bitch fully fit after her litter until the pusp are 6 months old.  I ahve been lucky and had a bitch showable 3 1/2 months after her first litter, but 2 years on after her second litter she wasn't showble until a month longer than that, and I still don't consider her fully fit (pups 5 months old) and in hard condition yet.

Going by her last litter I expect her in season in the next few weeks, and would not consider mating ehr unless she had only had one puppy (when she would, I expect, be much fitter by now).

She only had foru pups first tiem and 7 the secodn, and I think the number of pups and the bitches age will have an effect on when or if they are fit to be bred from again.

Isabel, Yes indeed I have bred myself...however, 2 out of 3 subsequent seasons is, in my humble opinion too many! And as you have NEVER had a pregnancy and only read about it or seen it I would suggest you go off and have a baby and see how easy it is!!!  Unfortunately, like Jeangenie, I have had 2 C Sections, also advised to leave at least 2 years in between and like yourself, seen births, assisted at births, done my General Nurse training, Midwifery, A&E extended Practice(Nurse Practitioner), and a Psychology Degree(specialising in Physiological Psychology), so feel I am more than adequatley qualified to offer opinion on health. Thank you

You may be very well qualified to comment on human reproduction but we are talking about dogs who, as you know, have whelps very differently proportioned to human babies.  You are, of course entitled to your humble opinion ;) but as I say it is not supported by the KC or many Breed clubs.  BTW I am not advocating dogs that have complicated deliveries and, in particular, sections are bred in this way in fact, personally, I would be inclined never to breed from a bitch that had a section again.
I'm a little surprised to hear a midwife say you have to "go off" and have a baby to understand the physiologic changes and effects it has on the body.  Does this mean you do not believe that any of your male or nuliperous obstetric colleagues are able to advise patients.

Not at all...the same way that you think I wouldn't understand breeding a litter unless I had done it! I'm just convinced that people are better advocates having gone through some 'life changing' events themselves!! I have always helpd this opinion and would rather have had people working for me that could empathise with patients rather than just symphathise, regards, Dawn

Well as neither of us has gone through actually whelping a litter :) we are both going to have to rely on what is understood about the physiological effects and I continue to hold the view that as this will vary from breed to breed the best guidance we have is each Breed Club consensus.

A lot of breeds sell for a grand and even some Labradoodles do which are not a breed!  There are also many breeds that sell for a lot more and many of these are easy whelpers.

So they won't fully earn that, but it's not far off and do they get taxed for it I doubt it because I bet most of the money doesn't even reach a bank account!

Lets hope not too many run away with the idea that it is going to be that easy :)