Hi my little girl is day 60.  Last night we thought she weed in the bed about 7pm I got her out of the bed and wiped her down and alot of discharge which was a very sticky substance left on the towel.  Within a few minutes after that alot of black/green watery fluid came out.  I telephoned my vet and she said not to worry it is fine.  We took her for a very short walk about 20 minutes later and she had a poo then she strained again but this time a sac was coming out.  She walked back up the drive and into the house sat down and the bag burst and waters spurted all over.  We could not see her having contractions no sickness or panting or groaning.  We called the vet after an hour as she was going to sleep again she said that because she was not upset or bothered or having noticable contractions there was no need to worry, but I am worried.  Please can somebody help me or give some advice.  The vet was very nice on both occasions and did say I could take her to vets for oxytocin injection or she would do a c-section.  I have never bred before and I truly do not know what to do.  Please help!

so basically what you are saying is you saw a sack earlier this evening & no puppy arrived as yet, you should by now of had the vet, i say get on the phone & ring them, hope someone else will come along soon to give you more advice, i know this may not be in your case but i once had a bitch who was showing signs of whelping & suddenly stopped, rang vet & she had inertia,
  please get her to the vet, oxytocin can only be given if the bitch is dialated,my vet is reluctant to give otherwise, sounds as if either something not right or something stuck

What is that?  She had a sac which black/greeny stuff came out of.  Vet told me to pull this bag and break it open as I pulled I am sure something was inside but only tiny and the vet thinks it was a pup that had died during the pregnancy and not to worry but a second sac came out with waters that when she sat down burst but nothing else is happening.  I am so scared.

yes janet that could  also be the case as to what your vet has told you but i would be worried about infection, sometimes vets cant be bothered with us dog breeders but they want to remember who pays their wages, i would still get her checked out, after what you just described i think this seams the more likely cause & hope your vet is right & yes black/ green is a sign of something not right
how long since the 2nd sac came out??
any signs of her trembling etc

Id have her straight into the vets, at first i thought just the water bag, but as thats come down second after an infected sounding bag id be wanting the vet involved as it sounds like infection, hopefully  it will be just the one thats come away already, good luck.

i agree with you bowers, maybe she has gone to the vet as i see she has now been offline from here for nearly an hour, hope all turns out to be ok
janet please post an update when you can

there should never be green disharge without a pup present get her straight to the vets and after that i would change vets because what she told you was wrong the green fluid is in the sac that the pup comes out in if that has burst the pup will not survive very long and could cause massive problems for your bitch even death dont mean to scare but it is the truth had you researched this before you bred her or was this an accidental pregnancy because this is what is said on every website in every book and on every dvd

I sincerely hope everything is ok with this lady's dog :rolleyes:
When Callah had her pups in September,although it was both mine and her first litter I read and re-read the book of the bitch and searched here and other sites for any information regarding danger signals to look out for during the whelping process.I admit at the time I was a nervous wreck but I still knew exactly what should or shouldn't be happening with my girl :) and luckily everything went smoothly for us. :D

I hope this bitch is ok & she isn't this lady's 15 month old Cavalier bitch that is having puppies Cavaliers can have problems whelping & 15 months old is way too young to be bred from :(

well she has only ever posted that she has 2 cavalier's, one male 10 months probably around 11 or 12 now and one female around 15 months so im guessing this would probably be the bitch. I hope its not her but if it is i hope all goes well for you although it does sound like she may need a c section or ave dead pups.

Please keep us updated our thoughts are with you girl

Hi
yes my cavalier was way to young to have pups but not that it makes much of a difference she is 17 months.  I could not have her pups destroyed as so many of you would have suggested and this problem as my vet has insisted on has not had anything to do with her age.  Oh and by the way Tammy did have to have a section as the vet was convinced the pups had died but one was mummified and the other was a beautiful healthy little girl who will be loved by us just like the other two.

Thanks for your comments
Janet Tammy and Tilly

hiya janet, so pleased to read your update, am so sorry you had to go through all this, hope mum is doing ok & recovering well now & hope pup does well
shirley

Hope all goes OK.  But this does go to show why you shouldn't breed from a dog too early.  Yes complications can set in anytime but are more likely to do so if a dog is bred earlier than is usually acceptable.

Good luck and keep us up-to-date with the pups and mothers progress.

The breed club do not recommend mating so as to whelp before 16 months.  Whilst, I'm sure most breeders would wish to leave it later to complete their health testing and reviewing that suggests to me that within the breed the consensus is they are physically mature at that age.  There may be areas of concern about this mating and whelping but I don't think it is fair to suggest that this is one of the causes of the difficulties that have occured.

Actually the breed clubs now recommend not under 2 1/2 years of age preferably over three because of SHM & MVD

BTW Janet you posted that your bitch was 14 months old in November http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?pid=606577;hl=;hlm=uid#pid606577

Sorry, got that minutes ago off their web site :).  Obviously they have not updated it yet.  I can quite see why they have changed it but I still think it erroneous to suggest dogs should not be bred at this age because of whelping complications. 

Can't wait to see how long the new puppy lasts without getting pregnant too early too??:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Isabel I think that you need to read what I put a bit more closely!  I put that although it does not mean that an early age of breeding can cause complicatons it doesn't help :rolleyes:

Are you happy to advocate breeding from bitches too young then?

Sorry to butt in, but does anyone have any ideas on my poo problem?!?

Of course I don't advocate breeding bitches too young :) but I think we are differing in our view of what too young actually means.   If this bitch is 17 months as stated I don't see there is any reason to believe she was more at risk of complications that an older one.  Until this recent change that MM has spoken about the club certainly thought this was not too young.  I do think that the board should promote good breeding practices at every turn but in order to ensure that has the fullest credibility I think we need to ensure it is as well founded as possible.
I'm sorry, JaneUK, I don't know where your poo problem fits in to all this :)

:d :d  I wondered about the poo problem too !!

The advice is on the site & comes under the health issues from the veterinary researchers into SHM & MVD. Until there is a DNA test for MVD & SHM the older a bitch & dog are(not over 5 though for the bitch-but the dog the older the better especially because of the MVD issues)the better chance there is of the puppies not inheriting MVD or SHM

I looked at the code of ethics.  I wonder why it has not been incorporated into that.

>I looked at the code of ethics.  I wonder why it has not been incorporated into that. <

Because sadly there are people on the committee that breed from dogs with SHM , from siblings of same & from very young dogs They also do not MRI scan & some have a severe SHM problem in their lines Isabel

Also the C of E has too be passed at an AGM & there are loads of members who would vote against the age change. My dogs were bred by members of the breed club & they bred from bitches on their first season & dogs under a year old(Lou's brother was used at 8 months old :(  & JD's sister had a litter on her first season :rolleyes:)

I go by the veterinary breed & genetics & neurological experts & thank goodness the americans are in on the research

I appreciate what you are saying MM and of course you should always put your personal view forward when these things crop up but for myself I feel when posting I would rather stick with what the breed club has decreed as they are the largest consensus within a breed and I rather like democracy :)

>with what the breed club has decreed as they are the largest consensus within a breed<

If membership was open to all you could  have a point but & it's a big but people to gain say the "top"people don't get to be members & hence have no say in the club(not me BTW)

I do know one committee member broached the subject & was shouted(not literally)down by those who don't want to accept SHM & MVD are problems in the breed

Two of the top breeders support the raising of the ages & MRI scanning etc but they are very much in the minority sadly. So anyone reading the site will continue to think breeding from under 2 1/2 year old unscanned dogs & bitches is fine & ethical which it isn't IMHO(& also in the opinion of the veterinary experts)

Can't follow the wording of your first paragraph.  Is it saying "top" people don't get to be members?  Surely they will become members long before they are "top".
You may not agree with the consensus but this is democracy in action.  You may well be right in this case but what if someone did just want to bring in their personal hobby horse?

>but people to gain say<

should have read

>but people who gain say<

What my sentence means is that if you "gain say"ie go against the top people(ie the committee members who don't want a change) then you don't get to be a member & have your application summarily turned down(ie turned down no reason given)so there is no democracy-the ordinary member does not get to approve who can/cannot join the club BTW so again no democracy at all

SHM & MVD are not "hobby horses"they are life threatening genetic problems If you had lost a dog due to SHM that caused it to be in angony or who died from MVD at under 2 you would perhaps understand.

Surely no one will be applying for membership just to challenge this.  Anyone interesting in matters to the point of wishing to change the code is likely to have been involved in the breed for some time.
I am certainly not suggesting that this is just a hobby horse and I thought I had made that clear in my post :)  my point is if you do away with democracy what do you do to stop some issue that is just somebodies hobby horse from being adopted because they hold the power without a vote.

Where is the dogs breeder in all this?  I endorse all of my puppies, doesn't everyone else?

From what the OP says it would appear this was an accidental mating.  Sadly, endorsing your puppies will not prevent the purchasers breeding either deliberately or accidentally it will only prevent them registering the puppies.

But still where is the breeder?Surely they would help