Hello my name is melanie and i own two st bernards Moose is 9 months 125lbs male and Gypsy is 10weeks old , 18lbs.

I have been researching the raw diet for a while now and would like to make the switch. I would like a diet plan for them just to get used to the concept of the raw diet.  Also the other day i wanted to see what they would do if i gave them raw meat. They didn't like it and spit it out. If anyone has examples of a detailed diet for this breed, or age would be great.

Before embarking on this I think you should do some proper research and read as much as you can about the pros and cons of feeding raw, which foods provide which nutrients, which nutrients are essential for your dog etc etc etc.

IMHO the easiest to read and most accessible book on this subject is Natural Nutrition for Dogs and Cats by Kmythy Schulze. It is written in a logical sequence, it provides a list of all food groups/vitamins/minerals that are needed and where they can be sourced and provided sample diet plans.

Switching to Raw is an excellent book but is not available in the UK.

The BARF diet by Ian Billingshurst is probably the next best  book as it is written in a much better way than his first which is Feed your Dog A Bone. 

I researched raw feeding for a full year before I felt happy about what, where, how, when and why to feed and have been doing so now nearly 5 years.

I would not put a 10 week old St Bernard on any home made diet. A giant breed is growing at an enormous rate at 10 weeks and will continue to grow very quickly until 10 months plus. During this time it is vital that the diet is well balanced, especially for calcium and phosphorus, and that it contains all the nutrients required for a fast growing pup. Otherwise the puppy can easily grow up with bone and joint problems that may cripple him in later life.

No one using a home made diet knows if the diet is properly balanced or not. It is pure guess work. You will hear people say that their raw/homemade diet is balanced over a period of time, but in truth they don't have a clue because they don't have the facilities to analyse the diet. They are merely following advice given in a few pop science / pseudoscience paperbacks and internet groups populated by instant experts with no qualifications in veterinary medicine or nutrition and often no training in, or understanding of, very basic science.

Small breed puppies may well get away with a guesswork home made diet but imo risking it with a giant breed is asking for trouble.

Pet food companies have resources for research and analysis far beyond any individual so let them worry about the balance of you St Bernard pup's food.

Actually jas we DO know if a diet is properly balanced or not when we feed raw because we know the EXACT phosphorus:calcium content that we feed, unlike commercial diets where it is not mentioned on any label! ;)

There are many giant breeders who feed raw and you can find out the relevant information by joining excellent specialist sites such as BritBarf who have many members who successfully raise giant breeds on raw, there are other sites by individuals too,

Those of us that do raw feed do not need to analyse our diet as this information is easily available for anyone who cares to look it up.

Information exists on the precise nutritional content on all forms of food including meat, raw and cooked, on the bone and off. :D

I am afraid that your post jas is yet another one consisting of sweeping generalisations backed up with no knowledge or facts to support your uninformed and prejudiced opinions.

"when we feed raw because we know the EXACT phosphorus:calcium content"

How exactly do you know it without analysis? There has not been much research done on raw diets but one paper that did analyse diets from assorted raw feeders found that the various diets were wildly unbalanced. You say you 'look it up' but when, as you claim, your diet is balanced over weeks not meals I wonder just how you go about that?

Other work has shown that many dogs fed a raw home made diet have abnormal blood panels. I've read on BARF groups that these should be considered 'normal' for raw fed dogs which is obvious, arrant nonsense.

"I am afraid that your post jas is yet another one consisting of sweeping generalisations backed up with no knowledge or facts to support your uninformed and prejudiced opinions.

Is there any need for this sort of comment?

As I said in my previous post I do not NEED to analyse my dog's diet, anymore than anyone who feeds a commercial diet needs to do so, that work has been done for me.

Do you honestly believe that the protein, fat, vitamin, mineral etc content of food has only been analysed by the manufacturer's of commercial dog foods?

Where on earth do you think nutritionists for humans get their information from?

If you care to do any actual research yourself you will find the nutritional content for ALL foods is easily available at a touch of a button.

Therefore one can find out the exact nutrition content of a raw chicken (all parts) and an apple, simple really, and one does not even need a white coat or a degree; why do the work yourself when others have done it for you?

You may have read lot of things on BARF groups, just as we read many things on this group, does not mean that they are all true and it is up to the individual to sort the wheat from the chaff.

If you post items/opinions that can easily be disproved and are not factual and that terms such as  "arrant nonsense" " it is pure guess work" "but in truth they don't have a clue" "they are merely following advice given in a few pop science/pseudoscience paperbaks" etc and "often no training in or understanding of very basic science" I am afraid you are leading yourself open to opinions from another sort.

You have no idea WHAT my background is, OR where I got my information etc so making unfounded sweeping generalisations based on purely your own biased view will inevitably result in comments that such as mine.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion jas and entitled to express it.

"Everyone is entitled to their opinion jas and entitled to express it.

Exactly. And preferably without condescending comments in reply.

"If you post items that can easily be disproved and are not factual and that included words like "arrant nonsense" I am afraid you are leading yourself open to opinions from another sort.

It is arrant nonsense peddled as 'fact' on BARF groups. You say yourself in reply that "You may have read lot of things on BARF groups, just as we read many things on this group, does not mean that they are all true and it is up to the individual to sort the wheat from the chaff so presumably you also think it silly?

I'm well aware of the sort of replies adverse opinions on raw feeding, which are supported by the vast majority of veterinary surgeons, get from raw feeding evangelists.

"If you care to do any actual research yourself you will find the nutritional content for ALL foods is easily available at a touch of a button.

If you give an example of your own menu for your dogs showing how you know that it is balanced for the major nutrient groups, Ca:K, vitamins and minerals I may understand better.

When feeding an assortment of foods for example, how do you work out what the overall Ca:K ratio is? Ditto when feeding different foods over a period as I believe you recommend. To say this information is "easily available at a touch of a button" is surely a tad simplistic?

I am afraid condescension is not your prerogative jas.

If you continue to "presume" things you will never make a good researcher or be able to support a particular point of view.

Presumption is not used in good, scientific study ;)

I regard a lot of posts and posters as silly, but then this is not restricted purely to internet forums.

Where do you get your stats that adverse opinions on raw feeding are supported by the vast majority of veterinary surgeons?

Since when do the majority of veterinary surgeons do nutrition courses and what is their area of knowledge/expertise on raw feeding.

I have nothing to prove with regard to raw feeding to you or anyone else, my dogs and their health is the only proof that I require.  You have already stated that your understanding of raw feeding means that it is arrant nonsense, so there is nowhere for anyone to go on that is there! ;)

If people wish to feed raw or commercial that is their choice, I really could not care less.

Nothing simplistic about doing a google search on nutrition, anyone access to the net can accomplish that ;)

My dogs blood panels are all in the normal range, according to my vet & the lab he uses & they`ve been raw fed for a number of yrs now, guess the proof of the pudding is in the eating, so to speak :D

Thats all 10 of em by the way :D

Not seen any *work* or the *1 paper* showing raw fed dogs have abnormal blood panels.........

Christine, Spain.

JAVM, Vol., 218, No 5, 2001

>Small breed puppies may well get away with a guesswork home made diet but imo risking it with a giant breed is asking for trouble.

I'm sure my breeder would be very interested in your extensive knowledge and experience of raw feeding :)

They have been feeding Barf for many considerable years, long before the advent of "internet groups" and "pseudoscience paperbacks" and have great success in and out of the ring with their dogs and produce some of the longterm healthiest stock in their breed. IMO, if you take the diet of your dog seriously, then guesswork doesn't come into it.

Perhaps in their many years of feeding this way, they have been extemely lucky, perhaps Tohme who has been feeding this way for nearly 5 yrs has also been lucky ;)

I wouldn't dream of criticising a training formula or a certain diet for my dogs until I had at least researched it thorougly and then tried it.

"I wouldn't dream of criticising a training formula or a certain diet for my dogs until I had at least researched it thorougly and then tried it.

As a matter of fact, many years ago, long before BARF was 'invented' I did feed a home made diet. I fed it because that was what many of the long established people then in the breed fed and because, unlike now, the ingredients were easily available and cheap. I did read everything I could find on nutrition and unlike most of the modern raw feeding evangelists I had the scientific background to understand it.

And I worried myself sick over getting Ca:K right.

To a small extent at the time (because by then many were feeding a prepared and analysed diet) and much more so a decade or two earlier, there were giant breed dogs with problems (sometimes deformities) that were almost certainly nutritional and that you just don't see today. Look at older veterinary books and they have pages on nutritional bone and joint disease that are barely mentioned today. Look at old photographs of giant breeds and examine the legs. And those dogs were reared with people who had far bigger kennels and far more experience of rearing pups than most people have these days.

By the time I first bred a litter many breeders were using complete food, despite the cheapness of abbatoir meat and having tried, and tried very hard, to produce a balanced diet for giant breed youngsters, I was enormously relieved of constant worry about unbalanced diets when I followed them.

Unfortunately again some vital information is being missed out of your post.

One of the main reasons that large breeds were maturing with deformities was the obsession of breeders giving calcium supplements, whether or not on a raw diet (I think the original raw diet was designed by God when he created dogs in the first place, but I could be wrong)! :D

Ingredients are easily available today and cheap, much cheaper than commercial foods I get 60lbs of human grade chicken for £26!

Experience does not necessarily equate to knowledge!

Some people have the same experience for 20 years..................... ;)

Whether people choose to feed a raw or commercial diet is immaterial to me, people will do what suits them and their dogs best.

However, it should be the result of informed decisions, not on hearsay, gossip, old wives tales and biased opinions. 

There are pros and cons in all systems and for individuals within that system.

"One of the main reasons that large breeds were maturing with deformities was the obsession of breeders giving calcium supplements, whether or not on a raw diet"

And why did they give calcium supplements? Because they were aware that the diet they were feeding was unbalanced.

Some caused even more problems by continuing to give supplements after they chaged over to complete foods, but happily just about everyone knows not to do that now.

>And why did they give calcium supplements?

Because they were under the misapprehension that, if a little of something is good, a lot must be better. A very common mistake.

How did they KNOW the diet they were feeding was unbalanced, what information did they have to go on if, as you say, only those who have scientifically researched commercial dog foods, had this at their fingertips?

Surely they did this on the back of guesswork and supposition?

Also, one cannot legislate for people feeding unbalanced diets WHATEVER system they choose.

People who buy commercial foods which state they have  been scientifically researched to contain all the nutrients that your dog needs on a daily basis and is completely balanced, continue to "unbalance" this diet with all the additions they give.

Peopl KNOW how to feed themselves on a balanced diet yet they still CHOOSE to eat fast foods that pack on the pounds, raise BP and cholesterol.

It is not knowledge that is the problem, it is what one DOES with the knowledge that counts ;)

RAW FEEDING  Hhmmmm Has solved 2 really big problems for me, or is it just coincidence? Firstly, our 11 year old Goldie suffered from a really bad loss of fur about 2 years ago, she was always itchy, we clipped her short to treat it better and see what was going on at skin level, we applied countless preps from vet, paid horrible bills for investigations, paid for skin scrape tests etc. The vet at the end of all this still could not be sure of the problem, so she blamed it on our african grey parrot - Ziggy.

We decided Ziggy had to go, one of our customers took him (we are dog groomers) and we waited for Winnie to recover, the vet reckoned that she was allergic to the dust mites on the parrot and so we expected to see an improvement soon. 12 months later she was no different I was getting to the stage were I was seriously considering knitting her a jumper!!! she was practically bald completely, apart from her legs. 

Then I started reading things about RAW, we changed her food to minced chicken, with the odd few table scraps, fish and bones, as she was 10, I wasn't too concerned about getting it spot on, I just watched her carefully for weight loss or gain. Within 3 months the difference was astounding, she is now like a new dog, her coat has come back and she looks and acts gloriously healthy, I can only assume that it was the RAW diet as by this time it had been 4 months since we had been to the vets with her as nothing he did was helping.  She has been on RAW now for ages and there has been no sign of the skin condition coming back.

The second this I have to be thankful to RAW feeding for is the tremendous improvement in my GSD pup (9months) since I have switched her exclusively to RAW. She had never produced firm stools, some of you might remeber my post 'MY GSD IS POOING CROP CIRLES' she was terrible, she would produce a bit move on, do a bit more move on, and so on until there was a snail trail of it round the garden. It wasn't dihorrea (spelling?) it just wasn't nice healthy pooh again several trips to the vets, samples etc proved there was nothing actually wrong, no infection or anything, up to date with wormers, everything was covered, except what she was eating. When she came to me she was on Royal Canon, and her poohs weren't firm then either, there was just alot less, with her only being little! I swapped her to burns, no difference, we tried Jwb, no change, Aurtarky, no change, we did the change over a period of time, just how it's meant to be done gradually but it seemed to me nothing suited her.

I have always given my dogs raw bones, but after seeing the success of Winnie's recovery, I decided to go the whole hog and Try Shanti on an exclusively raw diet too. Because she was young,  I read and read about it, came on here, asked questions, tried to find out as much as possible and then made the swich.

She has been on this diet now for about 3 weeks, she gets a couple of eggs a week, with shells, 2 cans of pilchards a week, turkey drumsticks, raw with bone, raw chicken wings, drumsticks and minced chicken, she also has a raw meaty bone a day. I tried to follow advise by people already doing it about the % of body weight to feed and am at present feeding 2%.

The difference is quite unbelievable, the poo is firm and passed easily in on go, she no longer tries to eat it,
and she looks so much healthier, I can only go on my experience, and when you think about really, what were dogs feed on 100 years ago? there was no commercial food then. I would say to anyone wanting to try, give it ago, try it for 6 weeks and if you don't notice a difference you are pleased with go back to your old food. 

Was it something I said?? :-(

>Was it something I said?<

Oh on the contrary Shanti,i doubt anyone can argue with your post ;) There's nothing for the pessimistic pete's to pick apart :D

Winter05 i have seen countless large breed pups raised on Raw with nothing but excellent results :) Altho it doesnt take a rocket scientist to feed a dog i do urge you to do your research and read,read read! You can never have enough info IMO :) You will get all sorts of advice shoved at you also,especially from people who have absolutely NO clue on this way of feeding as evidenced by this thread,i wonder how these people manage to feed their families yet have no clue how to feed a dog ;)

'Oh on the contrary Shanti,i doubt anyone can argue with your post  There's nothing for the pessimistic pete's to pick apart '

Well there's a first then lol x

Perhaps nobody responded because, like me, they don't have any issues with people recounting their experience and giving a testimonial for what they feed.  The only thing that bothers me is when people point the finger at others choice of feeding when they are equally happy with their results.

You can't just throw your dog a steak and expect their diet to be well balanced, which I'm sure you know.  Properly researched and implemented, I would imagine your dogs would do quite well on a raw diet.  Certainly better than if you feed them corn sprayed with restaurant grease like some people do.  :-)

hi all,

i just read ur posts on raw feeding. very intrestin thanks i got a few Qs tho n hopin u could help me i got a 8 week old puppy and a 2yr old i am wanting to raw feed but dont know the ins and outs of it can anyone give me info any at all please like % ratio or does dog breed matter etc thanks

You really do need to do a fair bit of research before starting out on Raw feeding to make sure that the dog is receiving a balanced diet with all the required nutrients. Particularly important for a growing pup.

You will find lots of information if you do a search of the forum for 'BARF' or 'RAW FEEDING'. I can highly recommend a book called 'Natural Nutrition for Cats & Dogs' by Kymythy Schultze. It explains the whole concept very simply and suggests meal plans & recommended supplements etc. There are lots of books on the subject but this is the one I found most useful when starting out on Raw feeding.

I feed a large cross breed and an 8 month old giant breed on Raw. They are both looking fantastic and the pup is growing at a nice steady rate :)

Over the course of a week they will usually have: chicken (wings/drumsticks/legs/necks), lamb (breast/shanks), fish (white fish & salmon/sardines), beef mince, pork ribs, eggs (including shells), fruit & veg (anything except grapes and onions, whizzed up in the food processor), heart, liver, tripe, rabbit (if I can get it) and just about anything else I can lay my hands on :) It helps to establish a good relationship with a good quality butcher ;)

I also supplement with vitamin E, fish body oils, vitamin c, glucosamine & chondroitin and 'keepers mix'

You should aim to feed about 50-60% of the diet as raw meaty bones. Adult dogs require 2-3% of their bodyweight daily although you may need to adjust amounts to suit the individual dog.

However, I am very much a newcomer to raw feeding and there are much more experienced members who will be able to advise further but I would stress that you need to do thorough research before you start.

HTH