>But I really don't think that her being a bit nervous should prevent her from producing sound puppies.

Temperament certainly has an hereditary element. I assume the sire is rock-steady in all situations to compensate for her intermittent nervousness?

As far as I know, yes.   Hereditory temperament can also skip generations, so none of us know what we've got really  ;-)

True - but it's best not to start with a known problem hoping it won't recur! ;)

But resource guarding isn't that sort of problem, is it?

But nervousness is.

Good god.  I said she is A BIT nervous.  It isn't enough to cause a problem.  She bounds around happy as anything at home and at the park, etc.  But in strange environments she is a little nervous, like at the vets, or at the behavourist today.  I get nervous when I go to the hospital or the dentist.  I am of a nervous disposition.  My partner isn't.  But he still feels apprehensive about doctors and dentists etc.  Some people on here are so over the top it's incredible. 

As far as I know, yes.   Hereditory temperament can also skip generations, so none of us know what we've got really

We do when we know all the dogs behind our dogs for 7 generations! :(

Hmm very impressive.  But I'm sure that is the minority of people who's dogs have puppies.

That really shouldn't be the case though, should it?

What shouldn't?

Be the case for the minority of people who's dogs have puppies

Are you seriously saying that people who's dogs have puppies should know all the dogs from their pedigrees 7 generations back????

At least 3, yes.  Otherwise how would you know what you are likely to produce?  The pups will be so much more than just products of the dam and the sire.  That's exactly what researching a pedigree is all about.

Why not? :)  Why else would you be breeding if not to improve the lines of your bitch and the stud??  And how would you do that if you weren't in possession of a good basis of knowledge of the pedigrees of the dogs being used?  Thats why, IMO, breeding is best left to those who know what they're doing and have done the necessary ground work.

:)

Certainly grandparents and great-grandparents, yes, and probably several others from further back.

Jayne,

Sorry but there is more to breeding a litter that putting a dog and bitch together to produce puppies.  Yes you should know what is behind both Sire and Dam.  If there is a slight doubt in temperament then dont mate them.  Obviously you have mated her now so there is nothing that can be done.  Just hope that other people who read this thread THINK before they decide to breed a litter. 

Just do ALL you can to socialise these new babies with as many people as possible and other dogs and cats etc.  You want to give them the best start in life. 

Knowing what's behind your dog before you mate it! :rolleyes:

It's probably the MAJORITY of breeders who regularly post here though Jayne. In my main breed (borzois) I know every single dog personally in my current dogs pedigree. I know their faults and what their temprements were like going back many generations :)

The difference between dog breeders and puppy producers chaumsong! :(

http://www.dog-play.com/breedercomparison.htm

I came across all this when I used to breed cats.  It used to drive me mad.  People who bred persians to get their faces as flat as possible, nevermind if they could breathe or not.  People who used to consantly cart their cats from one show to another, not caring a bit that their cats were traumatised and unhappy.  People who kept their cats in cages and runs, and who's cats had stopped being pets altogether.  People who were so pompous and stuck up that they forgot about the welfare of the animal completely.  I am letting my dog have a litter.  Get over it.  I have gone about it in a responsible way.  You few people are not some elite little club who are the only people allowed to breed dogs.  I love my animals very much, and there is nothing wrong with the way I look after them.  I am bored with this thread now, and I'm sure so are most others.  You are cruising for a fight now.  First you tell me my dog is aggressive and I should have it put down, then you tell me my dog should have an abortion because she displays resource guarding.  Then you tell me that the behaviourist I saw is no good.  Then you tell me that my dog is too nervous to be bred from.  Now you are telling me that I don't know enough about her pedigree.  It is all so over the top that I am honestly beginning to wonder if you are just winding me up.  I am not posting anymore on this thread, not because you are right and I have nothing to say, but because it has got completely out of hand, and whatever I say you will slam me down, because at the end of the day, you don't want people treading on your turf.

I havent got time for this now because I'm off to dog clib BUT you obvipsul know nothoing abit cats EITHER. Persians can and do breathe. :) If cats hated shows the'd NEVER win, as I am SURE you will know temeprament counts fr a LOT and CCs are FREQUENTLY wthheld, so i is impossible to d well wot a cat that HATES showng. And oith the 13 day rule it is certain tha no cat can be shown TOO much!!!

Okay I have more time now -no friends outside in the car telling me it's time to go, and no Papillon on my lap making typing difficult. :D

>People who bred persians to get their faces as flat as possible, nevermind if they could breathe or not.

The Persian breed standard says that the upper edge of the nose leather must not be above the lower edge of the eye, effectively meaning that any too extreme type has placings withheld. The GCCF is the only registration body in the world with such rules -and there are many breeds that have limitations BECAUSE nobody wants them to get too extreme. If persian cats couldn't breathe, how do you think they could stay alive? My oldest will be 15 soon! How many have you bred, shown and owned? I've bred them for 16 years and shown them for as long, and it is nothing but a fallacy to say they are too flat faced to function properly. How would you feel if somebody went up to you and said "GSDs shouldn't be bred because they are all viscious dogs"? It's the same thing, total and incorrect myth.

>People who used to consantly cart their cats from one show to another, not caring a bit that their cats were >traumatised and unhappy.

I've already answered this, but to clarify: the GCCF rule say there must be a clear 13 days in between each show you attend (whether it is with the same cat or not!) so the most any cat ever could be shown is once every 14 days. Now even that is pretty much impossible as there aren't enough shows for that. Temperament matters a lot, and NO cat who is scared etc will do anything, therefore it is pointless showing it -the CCs/PCs etc WILL be withheld. It is however rare to find cats that hate showing, the great majority just take it in their stride -just like dogs do dog shows. After all, all the cats have to do is settle down for a snooze on their blanket, and then be handled a few times! With the owners and general public not allowed in the hall so that it is as calm as possible! Travelling is the same thing as with dogs -you get them used to it as kittens and they don't mind, again they just go to sleep.

Now I would like to know just HOW having a go at CAT exhibitors can help justify breeding from a non standard pet bitch? If I moan about, say, rabbit breeders, would that justify me breeding from say a crossbred cat without the relevant blood and DNA tests?

No actually it isn't if they are doing it properly.  If you don't know the dogs in the pedigree personally then you research the fqacts from people that do.

One of my mentors has been breeding sicne 1953, and has clear recall about temperaments and good and baed points fror dogs many generations back.  If an average generation is 3 years then that is at least 17 or 18 generations.

When importing new bloodlines one does the same researches as many of the dogs behind as you can get details of.

Sadly you are probably right too many people breed from dogs with little thought to the consequences, and the results are dogs with por temperaments, faulty conformation and genetic health problems that coudl have been reduced or eliminated.

I didn't say I hadn't researched the pedigrees.  I think it is crazy to expect people to know all those dogs personally.  It is laughable.  I have obviously spoken to the breeder who bred my girl about her pedigree.  She owns both the mother and father.  I also spoke to the sires owner about his.  Calling people irresponsible for breeding because they don't personally know every dog throughout 7 generations of both the mother and fathers pedigree is totally ridiculous.

Not at all.  That's what serious breeders do! Truly.  It's a different world.

What do you call researching the pedigree?

In order to research pedigrees as far as I can, I've spoken to people in the US, who have owned certain dogs showing in my dogs' pedigrees, in order to ascertain what traits they have noted.  So ok, I've got a breed that is numerically small over here in the UK, but I think it's worth it.

Margot

Jayne - I have a feeling that you entered into this whelping in blissful ignorance - am I right?   You thought that, after having had your bitch hip tested, that you had done the right thing, etc etc.   Its now, when we are raising all these points that you realise that you might be in far deeper than you thought!

Well, you aren't alone - we've all had to start somewhere - but the important thing is to make this litter part of your learning process!

Regards

Margot

You may not personally know the dogs (after all, some of them will be dead) but you can speak to their owners or people who were showing/working their dogs at the same time and remember them as individuals, not just names. Yes, you spoke to her breeder - what about the people who bred her grandparents?

What did you do to research the pedigrees? Some people make the elementary mistake of thinking that, if no name is repeated, that's fine, whereas in fact that's usually the biggest gamble.

Well how does anyone know that a dog is the dog on the pedigree or on the papers?  How does anyone know that the dog taken for hip scoring is the dog on the kc papers?  The whole system in this country is flawed.  There are loads of people who really are irresponsible - people who bring up litters of puppies in sheds, without human contact, etc, people who breed and breed and breed from bitches, just to make money, and you pick on me.  I'm sick of it all now.  You are (some of you) hateful people, to be honest, and I want nothing more to do with you.

Thank you to those that have mailed me to offer support, and to those that have posted up friendly replies.  And to those who haven't been very friendly, I hope you and your perfect dogs have a long and happy life  :-)  Mind your halo's don't slip  ;-)

>How does anyone know that the dog taken for hip scoring is the dog on the kc papers?

It's called trust. You say you've had your bitch hip-scored, so we believe you. Why should anyone else be different to you?

Yes, there are very many sorts of bad breeders, and very few are deliberately cruel. Most are well-meaning but unaware of the responsibilities of what they're doing.

I have a younger female GSD  that has fear aggression though the older male is fine.The younger one certainly hasnt learnt off Guiness,she would rather hide behind him.Its funny when people come to the gate and the dogs are in the garden,if they are together they will both run towards the gate and bark,if Guiness is alone he will run up to the gate barking,but if Polly is alone she will run towards the front door but still bark on the doorstep.She gets her courage from him.She has learnt alot of things from the big boy that are positive though.

>My GSD is long coated :-)  Is that going to start another row?

Is both she and the stud hip scored with good results, eye tested, and the stud haemophilia free? If so at least you've done it responsibly.

They are hip scored, and both have low scores.

How about the sire's haemophilia test? That's an important one for GSDs.

I'm not sure about that.  But I am happy with the way I have gone about things, thank you.

I had a bit of a problem with my two dogs as one is a cross GSD and the other is a pedigree GSD.I was thinking of breeding mine as a one off as many of my family and friends have asked if i was going to have puppies from them.Now Guiness,i have his bloodline down through 9 generations and also spoke to the breeders of his grand dam and grand sire as well as his dam and sire,they are still breeding now.As Polly is a cross i was advised against it.They are both lovely dogs with the most placid of temprements but people did not agree with me mating them.I can see that the GSD breed would like to be kept pure and uninterupted but also a good cross breed is better than a bad pedigree.In a way i agree with alot of people but in another way i cant.So i agree to dissagree.Im not going to breed from her now,im going to wait a while and in the future maybe get a small toy dog.Though i dont know how it will get along with my two bounding heaps of fur.We will see.Either that or another GSD but this time a stunning LC WGSD.

I am really sorry too say this but to mate a dog with any signs of an aggressive behavour is my idea of irresponsible.  I have just mated my labrador bitch but only because she is of wonderful temperament.  Even then I spent some time considering the stud dog and making sure he was of equally good quality. 

A vet that recommends mating!  Where do they exist? 

I hope all goes well for you and your expected pups.  Just please be very careful and respect her if she becomes possessive of her pups.  If you dont she may attack them.  Watch the children dont approach until she indicates that she is happy too let them.  She may not even let you near.  I pray for all concerned that this works out. 

After reading the posts in both threads, I don't blame you! Your dog has been allowed to get away with resource guarding in the past and now that she is pregnant she has taken things further. That doesn't mean that she is aggressive. From what you say she doesn't sound aggressive at all. Resource guarding is natural for a dog. It is not a sign of bad temperament. It is just a training issue you haven't got on top of when she was younger and that you will need to sort out after the pups go. IMO there is no point messing about with 'desensitisation' or even training when she is six weeks in whelp. Wait until the puppies are reared. In the mean time keep her out of the kitchen when the family is eating and try to stop your children giving her tid-bits. Also keep the children away from her when she is eating her own food.

You say that she seems obsessed with food at present. Are you sure that she is getting enough of her own food? At six weeks of pregnancy the appetite begins to rise. I change my bitches onto the puppy food that the pups will be weaned on at six weeks and feed to appetite until the pups are weaned. That said, mine is not a greedy breed, and does not put on excess weight. A GSD may be diffferent. You don't want her to put on excess weight or the puppies to become so big that they are difficult to deliver naturally, so keep an eye on the covering of her ribs and make sure she is not geting podgy. It is also a good idea to begin to feed more frequently at this stage. Again I feed my bitches four times a day from 6 weeks on, and through lactation.

This incident does not mean that she will automatically refuse to let anyone near the pups. That is something that can happen with any bitch, though it usually does not unless the bitch is unwell. Make sure she whelps in a quiet place and stay with her while she whelps (hopefully you will be staying with her constantly for a few days before and after the whelping anyway). Your children will probably want to see the births and to handle the whelps after they are born, but I would expalin to them now that will not be possible. I don't say that because of this incident. I didn't and wouldn't let children be involved in the whelping of any pups or allow them to handle the pups for quite some time after birth. Providing all goes smoothly, you can take photos/video for them.

Best of luck.

Hi Jas,

Really good advice it could just be because she isn't getting enough food.  A video is a great way to keep everybody involved.  Must remember to have mine at the ready!!!!