My 5 year old son just got down from the table, then went back to find the dog eating his dinner off the table. He put his arm out to towards his plate and she barked and bit him.  There is no blood, but lots of red marks and it is swelling.  I am in shock, and really scared about it.  I have put her outside, but am so worried that she will do it again.  Can anyone help?

what kind of dog is it. My firnd has a mixed bred dog german shepard and something else but her son who was 12 bent down to pet the dog as he was eating and the dog bit his face and he had to have surgery done to fix it. Has your dog always been aggressive or is this just a one time thing

She's a GSD.  Sorry, I put this in both breeding and behaviour, as she is in whelp.  I am so worried about it.  She has shown signs of aggression before, but not as bad as this.

Have to ask WHY she has been mated up if she has shown signs of aggression before?

Goldmali - because after talking at length with other breeders, and my vet, and a trainer, I was told that it is something that can be worked on.  It is just where food is concerned.  I had been feeding her from my hand, and keeping the bowl in my hand whilst she eats, and we had been making progress.  But she has now gone worse than ever.

:rolleyes:

You should then have solved this 100 % BEFORE mating her.........

Really, you would have thought one of those people would have warned you that a food aggressive dog might get a LOT worse when in whelp. If she's like this now, be very very careful when she has the puppies. Good luck :)

Yes be careful when she has the puppies, she may not let you touch them. Sometimes they can get possessive, so keep the kids away.
A friend of mine had her cat killed when the bitch got her puppies, and it went for the kids too. Different breed though, but still not nice.

She is in pup so you have to deal with what comes. I think that although she has biten it is safe to say she will do it again given the chance. So keep her out of the kitchen when you all eat. Then you wont have that problem in the future. How far is she along into her whelp ?

Remember kids come first and if that means putting the dog into a different room when you eat, then do it.

I'd be keeping her entirely separate from the kids I'm afraid... all the time.

Well I tell you right now you may have big big big troubles when the puppies come. If she is like that with a human goodness knows what she will be like with a pup.

She should honestly never have been mated and anyone who have told you different is honestly wrong for doing so.

A dog biting a human is not good news.

I have to agree with the others.  Food agression may not be uncommon, but then again why is that.  In rescue dogs it may be to poor treatment and expereinces, but it may equally be because of poor temperament in the parents.

Only a small proportion of dogs are suitable to be bred from for temperament, conformation or health reasons.

As you have had your bitch exhibiting poor (though manageable) temperament issues since a puppy she should NEVER have been mated.

Tell me what made you think this bitch was suitable breeding material despite this character flaw?

The only ethical course of action you have now is tho have the bitch spayed (which will terminate the pregnancy).  It is actually possilbe to cause an abortion up to about six weeks, but her fertility does not need preserving.

It would be totally wrong, especially bearing in mind the size and power of the breed to bring pups into the world that may inherit, or learn these traits from her.

Even if the pups were to go to really experienced dog owners, the chances are always there that they will come into situations that all dogs do with family other kids etc.

As for the bitch herself, you can seek help to manage her behaviour, and with care she will continue to be an acceptable pet.  You will always be having to take especial care with visiting kids etc, I would always have her shut away in a locked room when other peoples kids visit. 

There was a recent case of a child walking into a room they had been told not to go into because of the dog he was bitten and the mother was taking action against the owner. 

A poster on this site had her granchild mauled and hospitalised by a dog owned by one of his school pals in their home.

A dog like this should never be rehomed and if it ever became necesary to part with her she should be put to sleep.

I agree if she is in whelp it will get alot worse. Just remember my story and keep her away from the children. Do not be surprised if she turns on you during this time espically if it is her first time. Becareful I would isolate her and talk to your vet there may be some sort of meds that she can take is it gets worse

I did say that to the vet - that I was worried about her being possessive with the pups.  She said that she thought it was unlikely, as she is very attached to me, and would probably want me around more, not less (which she has since she's been in whelp).  She is very much a family dog, and has been brought up from a pup around the kids, and taken anything they've thrown at her!  Her only problem has been snarling with food. 

Thank you for your comments Goldmali, but with all due respect, I think that had I solved the problem 100% like you say, it still could have reared its ugly head once she was in whelp.  I also think that a dog which has shown NO signs of aggression could do whilst in whelp.  I know I did  ;-)  I agree with what someone else said - that her body has taken over, and her concern is her puppies and her hunger right now.

Thank you for all your help.  I have calmed down now, and the arm is not nearly as bad as I first thought.  Thank god. 

Time and time again on here we hear of vets giving inadequate advice regarding breeding bitches. IMO they do not have the experience a long standing breed specialist has - and they are better to advise :)

I don't think anyone can predict how a bitch will cope with pups - hence better to err on the side of caution and not breed from a dog with ANY faults :)

Will you tell the owners of the new pups that mum has shown signs of agression, even if in relation to food?

I will be as honest as possible.  I will advise them not to make them same mistake as me, and to make sure from puppyhood that they are ok with people taking things from them. 

I feel awful now anyway.  I know people were only offering advice, but some of it has been rather harsh.  I will leave as I came, and wish you all the best of luck.

There's not really been much help been given here, has there?

Also, is food aggression hereditary?

Food agression can be learnt.

OP, I assume this bitches diet has been significantly increased in line with her pregnancy and there can be no doubt that she wasn't truely hungry?

You will also need to make sure these puppies are happy to have human hands near their food and that they do NOT associate humans with taking their food away in the early days.

Jayne, I would urge you to get hold of a book called "Mine:  A Practical Guide to Resource Guarding in Dogs" by Jean Donaldson.  You can get this from Crosskeys Books: http://www.crosskeysbooks.com/product_info.php?products_id=451

This book has a set of exercises you can carry out, described in great detail, for solving food guarding issues.

Your dog is doing what is called "resource guarding" in guarding food.  There is no reason for any dog to guard food from humans and I'm constantly finding people on this forum who say things like "Just keep the dog away at meal times" or "Don't take food away from the dog when eating" - those things might be fine as management measures, but they are not long-term solutions and I say again that it is in NO WAY ACCEPTABLE for a dog to food guard against people and for that to be "ok".

You need to work through the exercises in that book, and you also might need to get a behaviourist in to help you.  If you want to go down that route, please see your vet and ask for a referral to an APBC qualified behaviourist.  They will only take vet referrals.  There are lots of cowboys out there, so don't just see "the dog expert up the road" or you could make things worse, not better.

The other worrying thing is that, if your dog broke the skin when she bit, then she has no bite inhibition.  Bite inhibition needs to be developed when a dog is a puppy.  It means that, should a situation like this arise and the dog feel the need to be aggressive, she will be able to limit her bite and not break the skin with it. 

Jayne,

Various others have given plenty of advice here, but aside from the possibility of her being possessive OF the pups, please bear in mind that some bitches can be food aggressive TOWARDS the pups.  Possibly just a thought to keep to the forefront of your mind until things are well settled, as I know of people who have had problems with this when bitches resource guard.

Best of luck,

M.

Hi jayneuk

I see there are two thread running on this so I will copy and paste what I placed on the other one.

The fact that your bitch resource guards food is NOT an indication that her temperament is suspect or that you should not have bred from her.  Resource guarding is not a temperament issue but a training one.  If you have failed to prepare your dog for the eventuality that someone may approach her near food and hence not to object the failing is yours not the dog's.

The fact that she is in whelp will only increase the likelihood of any predisposition she has in this area to be heightened.

What you need to do is engage the help of an experienced trainer, one who is experienced in both the  breed and resource guarding issues.

Your first port of call should be the APDT (on the net) and if necessary the APBC.

A book that is very helpful in these scenarios is Mine! A practical guide to resource guarding in Dogs  by Jean Donaldson who sets out a good programme of desensitisation and counter conditioning for just such a scenario.

Resource guarding is hard wired into dogs, especially of particular breeds, and does not indicate that your dog has a poor or suspect temperament but just that this eventuality has not  been trained for.

In the interim I would strongly sugggest that your dog is never left unsupervised with your child(ren) and no food of any description is available for her to guard apart from supervised mealtimes; until you get help.

HTH 

I have just got back from the behaviourist.  We spent an hour and a half with him.  He is very experienced - has been doing his job for 30 years.  He told me that aborting the puppies or having the dog put down is completely ridiculous.  He said she is displaying resource guarding, which is common, especially whilst pregnant.  In the wild, she would be fighting for every scrap of food.  He said she is rather a nervous dog (he said lots of GSD's are), but definitely not an aggressive dog.  He even simulated attacking me, and she just sat there!  He also showed me various things, for example, standing very strong and stiff in front of her, and she backed off very submissively.  Her fault is lack of training, not genetic aggression, which people on here seem to think.  Anyway, thank you all for your opinions.

In answer to onetwothree above - she definintely has bite aggression.  It was one of the things I did work hard on when she was a puppy.  When she used to nip as a pup, I used to yelp like a litter-mate and I encouraged the children to do the same.  When she is playing with them, she is gentle, and no, she did not break the skin.  Which brings me back to my earlier point that if it was an aggressive attack from a big GSD, my son would not just have a bruise!!

Jayne - Well that's great, if she has bite inhibition.  Sorry, I was under the impression that she had broken the skin and your son was bleeding as a result.

I have to say that I agree with Tohme - almost every dog is potentially a resource-guarder, unless you work to prevent this happening.  And I don't think there is a need to abort the puppies or put the dog down if this is the only problem you have.

HOWEVER, I also have to say that you say that you knew your dog "did" this (guarded food) before, and you haven't done anything about it until now.  You really, really have to get this fixed and soon.  It might be a good idea to wait until the puppies are at their new homes and her hormones have calmed down before you begin the training though, because pregnancy and nursing can do funny things to a dog's mind and hormones and you want the training to be a success when you start.  Not to mention that you're not really going to have enough time to do it when the puppies arrive.

Both Tohme and I have recommended the same book, so I really hope you will see the light and order it.  It is not a vague book - it has a detailed list of steps and instructions for preventing food resource guarding.

Lastly, I would be very very wary of this "behaviourist" you saw.  You should only see a behaviourist who is a member of the APBC "Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors", and to see them, you have to get a referral from your vet.  If you have pet insurance, you can claim on it to see a behaviourist (most of the time).  See www.apbc.org.uk

The reasons why I am wary of this behaviourist are:

What you need is called a programme of "systematic desensitisation".  This basically means gradually getting the dog used to you being closer and closer to the food and rewarding the dog with food when she lets you do this without guarding.  This is a VERY BASIC summary of it.  A good behaviourist would give you a detailed written programme to progress through with her, and it would say things like: "Place bowl on floor, throw food into bowl from distance of 2 metres."  - I say this not to tell you to do it, but to give you an idea of the detail a behaviourist would go into on it.  The behaviourist you saw does not seem to have given you such a programme.

Some of the things you suggest are also not sound from a dog behaviour point of view.  To simulate attacking you, and the dog just sitting watching you, and for him then to say this proves she is not aggressive, is basically rubbish.  Different things will elicit aggression from different dogs.  Aggression is anything which is intended to harm another dog, animal or person.  Your dog, in biting your son, has displayed aggression.  Yes, it was resource guarding, and yes it can be trained out - but it is still aggression.  There could be many reasons why your dog did nothing when the trainer "attacked" you.  It COULD be that he's right, and she feels no urge to protect you.  It could also be that she knew it wasn't for real and he wasn't really attacking you - dogs are masters of body language, pheromone-reading and subtleties that we can only dream of and I'm sure she could know it wasn't for real.  There are many other reasons as to why your dog didn't protect you - and the fact that she didn't does not prove that she is not aggressive.  No reputable behaviourist would try to sell you that.  It is also an irresponsible thing to attempt, just from the point of view of - what would happen if the dog HAD attacked him in protection of you??  Was he wearing a bite suit? 

LAstly, the idea of standing strongly and stiffly in front of her and making her back off smells like "dominance theory" to me.  Dominance theory is one of those old chestnuts which used to be around everywhere.  Everyone in dog training circles used to believe in dominance theory.  They used to do things like eating before their dogs, going through doors before them, rolling them over in some "alpha roll" move, standing over them and so on and so forth.  Then, about 10-20 years ago, there was a major breakthrough and dominance theory was smashed and revealed as creating more problems than it solved.  So - please don't believe that you will solve anything by standing in front of your dog in an assertive way.

Look at it this way - your dog is already a nervous dog - this behaviourist says so and you agree.  She felt threatened enough to defend "her" food from your son by biting.  She obviously does NOT believe she is dominant, or she would not feel threatened to this extent and would not be nervous around people.  Standing in front of her, intimidating her, making her back off - you are threatening her more and more, making her feel less and less powerful and intimidating her.  And when you keep pushing a nervous animal into a corner, what does it do?  It bites.  It defends itself.  You are going to make things worse, not better, if you take the advice this man gave you.

Where did you hear about him?  Who gave you his number?  What are his qualifications?  Just doing his job for 30 years is not enough.  There are dentists in Pakistan who have been jerking people's teeth out for 30 years, unnecessarily - I saw them when I was there.  They have no qualifications because dentistry is unregulated there.  Well - dog behaviourism is unregulated here, so you need to be really careful who you go to.  Go to your vet and get a referral - please.

I got his number from my vet.  I give up on this forum. 

please dont shoot me but .... i would never keep an aggressive dog where there is children,what if next time this dog does serious damage to your child could you ever forgive yourself ???

She is not an aggressive dog.  That is the whole point.

Dont give up.There are some people that give you alot of great advice.Some you may not want to hear in particular but everyone has an opinion and it may not match with yours.I was told that the best way to stop my dogs singing whilst in the car was to slam on the breaks whilst the car was still moving and shock the dogs into being quiet!!!!! Others gave some good advice like the water gun treatment,which i have yet to try,weather permitting.You will get mixed feelings from alot of people as there are so many people on such a popular forum such as this.
Keep your chin up and look after that lovely dog of yours,stop worrying for the mo untill the pups have all gone off to permenant loving homes and the mothers hormones have settled.Then is the time to put all your energy into your dog.
Take care.

One thing I dont think anyone has mentioned is, you and the behaviourist say she is a nervous dog - I take it if she is nervous she is not confident in certain situations.  Most dogs bite out of fear so you will have to watch her from now on and ensure she is not put in a situation she cannot cope.

If she is like this over food have you though what is she going to be like when people come and see the puppies because they will want to see her and the pups together.   

When people came to see my litter I had mum running around with the pups, let people handle the pups with mum there, at one point a lady who came to see her male puppy weekly sat on the sofa with mum next to her licking her face!!  I know you wouldnt be able to do this with all bitches ;-0

OPPS just read it was mentioned about a nervous dog biting - Sorry onetwothree!

Hope thing work out for you. 

Is the behaviourist sending you a report of what was discussed and a treatment plan?  Edited to add he should do a follow up if you need it.

If we all had to put down all dogs that EVER displayed any aggression in their lives there would not be many dogs around. :rolleyes:

Again, it is all a question of degree; dogs can and do display aggressive behaviour in many ways, over many thing;, a cold stare, rigid body, growling etc etc are ALL aggressive behaviours in certain contexts.

Sometimes people do not recognise the subtleties however.

Just like us, we all have, as humans, varying degrees of "aggressive" behaviour, shouting, swearing, hitting, road rage etc etc etc.

There is a big difference between an "aggressive" dog and "aggressive" behaviour.

The fact that this bitch resource guards food does not necessarily mean that she will resource guard her puppies; in the same way that dogs that bite dogs do not, necessarily, as some people think, bite children/people.  The two do not necessarily go hand in hand.

It is unhelpful, short sighted and misleading to tar all dogs who may have "a" problem with an issue with "this is an aggressive dog" brush.

The original poster omitted a detail in her dog's upbringing, something which many of us have done, especially with our first dogs because until the problem reared its head we only reacted to problems, rather than being pro active to avoid them occurring in the first place.

She is trying to address this using the available resources at her disposal.

Whether or not the OP should have bred from this dog in the first place is now irrelevant because it has happened and we cannot turn the clock back, what we can do is give advice that may help her now and in the future.

Jayne,

Hardly anyone replying to your duplicate topic under different threads suggested your dog should be put to sleep!  I certainly didn't although I do stand by the fact that a bitch displaying the tendencies you describe should not have been bred from and should not have been unsupervised with a young child. 

Fair enough, if you can work with her and resolve the resource guarding - and providing her base, inherent temperament is good - then you should hopefully have a perfectly happy, normal and well adjusted dog if your other descriptions of her behaviours are accurate.  However, if you have failed to recognise the consequences of permitting this behaviour for over two years and have failed to appreciate the importance of protecting your own children in this situation, I think you have taken on a mammoth and ill-advised task in assuming you can cope with the additional pressures, quirks and foibles of an in whelp bitch never mind the enormous responsibilities for correctly rearing, socialising and producing well adjusted puppies for potential new families.

You neither have to take nor like any advice given - but you raised the issue and those of us replying have done so in good faith.

I wish you luck.  I hope this behaviourist's techniques and experience are appropriate for the case in hand - although IMO and IME they sound somewhat unusual insofar as being how best to assess your bitch.

regards, Teri

All anyone had to go on here was the poster's OWN words at the start, and I quote:

>She has shown signs of aggression before, but not as bad as this.

Does this sound like the OP just described guarding food? The word aggression is actually used. What other conclusions could be drawn when this wording was used?

I'm also wondering how many OTHER people who have posted on this subject have received unfriendly PMs -seems the OP doesn't always dare to speak up in public? FWIW such PMs I will just delete. (And just to re-iterate here, I never said a word about the bitch being PTS or anything. I just simply queried WHY she was bred from -after having read what the OP said ABOVE .

From my earlier post - "It is just where food is concerned."

Nothing to do with me not daring to speak in public, Goldmali.  I posted up a new thread, but Admin removed it and asked me to pm you if I wanted to carry on the row.  But seeing as you have brought it up here again, I will say the same thing "in public" -

"And what if your 'friendliest dog on earth' got it wrong, and you were not being attacked??  What if you were playing, or arguing, or she mis-judged it?  Are you saying she would attack the person?  Would you have her put down then?  Your dog is more aggressive than mine from what you are saying.  I hope you don't breed from her ;-)"

That was my pm.  I am still interested in your reply.  Why is my dog growling and snapping when food is taken from it any worse than your dog attacking someone when it 'thinks' that person is attacking you?  It is all aggressive behaviour, isn't it?

>From my earlier post - "It is just where food is concerned."

That was not posted until AFTER your post that I quoted (anyone can see that by just moving up in this thread) and after my reply to it with the plain query as to why the bitch was mated up if she had shown signs of aggression. I don't have a crystal ball unfortunately to find out what you are planning to write in the future. :rolleyes:

I am still not bothering with your PM, in public or not -it has nothing to do with your dog. Nor does it have anything to do with YOU as I like others simply queried the behaviourist's approach. (Although if the state of the GSD these days is so poor that they will not even defend their owners when under attack, I can certainly see why the police are moving away to Mals instead....)

You have just reminded me of something else the behaviourist said.  He said that GSD's have been ruined, because people have been so busy over the generations trying to breed the "aggression" out of them, that they have become nervous and timid.  He said he sees more nervous GSD's than anything else.

The part you said that wound me up was the bit about your 'friendliest dog on earth' attacking someone who they thought was attacking you.  I am just saying that that is aggression too, the same as my dog guarding food.  I really don't want to argue.  At the end of the day, we all love our dogs and want the best for them.  But can you see what I am saying?  To be honest, I was a little disappointed when she just sat there LOL, but maybe she knew we were pretending.  Who knows.  She has a loud bark anyhow, so hopefully that would be enough to scare someone off, without knowing whether she would go further to protect me.

Anyway, the whelping box has just arrived, so I will have fun trying to set that up now!!  Sorry I got cross.

Ah well I never said anything about my bitch defending me if she THOUGHT somebody was attacking me -I said if I WAS threatened. That's a big difference. :) She KNOWS the difference between real or not. :)

Anyway, fair's fair, and I hope you can see now that what I was concered about was mating up a bitch that had shown aggression from the info I had available which obviously wasn't the full story, and my other remark was about the behaviourist and not you -if your dog HAD growled or whatever at him for pretending to attack you I wouldn't have blamed her!!

Yes, I understand.  And I can assure you that my dog is not aggressive, although she does have a problem with resource guarding, which obviously needs to be addressed, and should have been done so long ago.  The fact is that the pregnancy has made it worse, and has brought it to the fore.  The behaviourist said to wait until after the pups are weaned, then we can fix it.  He said that it isn't sensible to do it now, with her being all hormonal.  I can also assure you that I would never breed from a dog that I thought was aggressive.  I should have made my original mail more clear.  She is lovely in every way, except for the resource guarding.  (And pulling on the lead, which I am going to work on too, once the pups are weaned).

"I never said anything about my bitch defending me if she THOUGHT somebody was attacking me -I said if I WAS threatened"

Not really. I had a very large protective bitch years ago. I wasn't well and she was downstairs when the GP came. When I got up to see him out, I fell over, bashed my head on the dresser and knocked myself out for a couple of seconds. When I opened my eyes the poor GP was bending over me .... and the bitch was a foot away from him, quite silent but jaws agape. Had I been knocked out properly and not been able to speak to her I think there is a very good chance he would have been mauled. IMO the incident was quite understandable from her POV. I was the only thing she was protective of (she didn't even like me messing about with my husband). A complete stranger that she had never met before was in the house, I was bleeding on the floor and the stranger was bending over me. Fortunately my breeds are not usually protective of home or owners, and I'm glad I've never had another protective dog. In all other respects she had 100% temperament, but after that incident I was always aware that things could happen that were a threat to me in a dog's eyes, but not in a human context.

>>"I never said anything about my bitch defending me if she THOUGHT somebody was attacking me -I said if I >>WAS >threatened"

>Not really. I had a very large protective bitch years ago.

Yes really because I was talking about MY dog not yours. :) My dog whose breed I got SPECIFICALLY because I needed a dog that would protect me if needs be. :) Now where I live we haven't been able to get home visits from GPs for many years :( but if we did, all my dogs are locked away safely from visitors they don't know -even the Papillon. :D (I.e. that goes for all visitors that aren't dog people, in case they simply don't like dogs. As a cat breeder I often have people visit that are scared of dogs or whatever.)

Jayne

I dont believe what he said about breeders trying to breed aggressiveness out of the breed results in nervous dogs - there is a huge difference in aggression and confidence and this breed should have confidence.   

Not getting at you just pointing out I disagree with what he told you.

That is like saying breeders have spent years trying to breed agression out of Dobes which has resulted in them being nervous and timid - I wouldnt belive this for a minute, there are very few nervous and timid Dobes that I have come across and the ones that I have are mainly down to lack of socialisation.  I think he may be spinning you a line, sorry.  Or trying to make you feel better.  I hope this makes sense and you dont take offence. 

There are several breeders who breed working GSD's and I have a friend who has just done her Sch2 with hers and he is not timid nor aggressive nor are the ones at her club.  Think of all the GSD's that go into the police force are they nervous?

Actually Liisa it is true what this person has said about GSDs in general in the UK.

Unlike the continent there are no restrictions on breeding in the UK (apart from age and frequency via the KC) and also unlike the continent  we do not require working ability to be evidenced prior to breeding such as a Schutzhund qualification etc.

The majority of GSDs in the UK are for the pet market (like most breeds) and/or showing.  Therefore the qualities that are required for GSDs on the continent and for working are not necessarily selected for.

If you require a dog for serious competition in Schutzhund/Working Trials in the UK most experienced people will not go anywhere near pet or show stock but proven working lines which stem from continental lines.

The number of GSDs competing in WT is small and those in Schutzhund even smaller, it is an extremely minority sport not licensed by the KC.

Successful competitors in this arena will go to specialist kennels that import and/or use continental dogs with strong Sch/IPO lines.

The failure rate for gift dogs in the police is extremely high, and some are extremely nervous or defensive; hence why some have their own breeding programmes which use Schutzhund line dogs and/or they are moving to Continental bred Belgian Malinois as the latter do not have the health problems endemic to GSDs.

The difference between the GSDs genetically engineered for this market over generations and those bred not using these kennels/lines etc is huge.

Hi Tohme,

I appreciate what you are saying :-)  As in my earlier email my friend is successful in Schutzhund recently getting SchII and her dog was bred in the UK.  I know her next dog is also coming from UK stock (not show or pet obviously - but working).

I dont know about GSD's in WT but there seems to be a fair few in Schutzhund and I wouldnt say it was a minority sport, isnt it becoming more and more popular?  I may have perceived this wrong as I dont participate in Schutzhund.

But did her dog come from purely UK stock?  Many UK breeders are now using foreign dogs or importing bitches to breed from.

There are only 16 Schutzhund clubs in the whole of the UK inc Ireland, Scotland and Wales and a maximum of 20 trials a year with an average of no more than 12 competitors at each one so the sport is minute in the UK.

Schutzhund was originally developed for the GSD although other breeds do compete (except in the WUSV) but there is a bigger  gene pool of proven successful workers in this  breed probably than any other

You need licensed helpers for the manwork phase and so it is a difficult sport to get into for a beginner.

WT is much bigger and there are many more trials both Ch and Open up and down the country with entries in the hundreds (over several stakes).  The GSDs that succeed in this field are generally from high drive stock, especially in PD however watching lots of them over the years and the words paint and dry came to mind........................... ;)

Hi Tohme,

Been off line since yesterday.  I will have to check with her but she is her jollies at the mo.  I am sure the parents are UK bred - then again I could be wrong.  I know her next puppy is coming from UK parents.

The GSD breed standard clearly says that their temperament should be

"Steady of nerve, loyal, self-assured, courageous and tractable. Never nervous, over-aggressive or shy. "

Only dogs who conform to the breed standard, both in body and mind, should be suitable to be bred from.  Ethical breeders do their best to breed to this standard.  Any breeder not breeding to the breed standard is doing the breed a disservice. :(

So maybe your behaviourist should have said "Unethical breeders are breeding nervous Shepherds"?

and what about judges who put up dogs that are patently shy in the ring.............

If judges do not penalise this, breeders will have no reason to breed dogs that do not meet the standard...........

The breed standard does not include LC GSDs though does it?I think they are stunning looking dogs in my opinion.Also WGSDs are not allowed to be shown either.So you could could have either of those dogs above mentioned with the best of temprement and general apperance but as they are LC or WGSDs they cannot enter a show ring.
I suppose that you must put your foot down about certain things that pass for standard but its such a shame really.

As long as they're KC registered they can be entered; it's just that they're so far from the breed standard they won't get anywhere.

My GSD is long coated :)  Is that going to start another row?  I wanted a long coated one because I think they are beautiful.  I am not showing or interested in how tall her ears are, or how long her tail is, to be honest. 

Lots of dogs are nervous in some situations.  Mine acted today the same as she acts at the vets.  I am a nervy person myself, so maybe she picks up on it from me.  I don't know.  But I really don't think that her being a bit nervous should prevent her from producing sound puppies.