Sorry I am totally confused on this Chocolate gene mix. And need some expert advise please. Dam yellow, Sire chocolate, puppies all black no colour variations. If  I used the same stud again is it likely they will all be black again? Many thanks

you need to go further back than that. What colour were the grandparents and great-grandparents? Generally, mating chocolate to yellow is frowned upon.
This site might help you.

I would imagine that the yellow dam was yellow carrying black and the sire was choc carrying just choc gene which would produce all black puppies.
eeBB x EEbb will produce EeBb

EeBb is black puppies carrying black choc and yellow genes

Info taken from Vetgen website.

I was led to believe that yellow shouldn't be mated with choc too.

I would imagine that you would produce a replica litter to what you have produced previously.

What are you hoping to get from your yellow bitch? and why did you choose choc for a stud dog before?

P.S i'm no expert but i have been doing lots of research into genes of labradors recently and have just had my bitch coat color tested to see what hidden colours she carries.

You obviously did not do any research before this mating....choc to yellow is a big no no. very much frowned upon....no reputable breeder would consider this mating regardless of the quality of Dam and Sire.

the choc probably does not carry the yellow gene  and the bitch may not carry the chocolate gene, there the dominant black will result.

However this may not be the case, you will need to go back at least 5 gens on both pedigrees and possible have a colour test as Chocmolly has suggested.

Have both dogs been hip and elbow tested with the scores being below the breed mean, and are both eye certificates current?

Just reading this board and was wondering why its frowned upon to mate a chocolate with a yellow as i find this extremely interesting the coat colour combis of labradors. Have just seen an advert for apricot coloured ones recently this has to be a novel way of describing dark yellows

Mating chocolate to yellow is likely to give you yellows with chocolate pigment, which looks wishy-washy.

As for 'apricot' - that just shows how little the breeder knows, so steer well clear!

Hi Keepers,

Have you never seen those chocolate labs with light colour eyes before?
In the village where i live , there is a chocolate dog puppy who has a yellow brindled effect through it's back legs,I can only assume it has a yellow parent(don't like to ask in case i offend!)

Did you look at any of the above links at all? I am now using them as my "bible" to future matings.

Chocymolly.

Hi. Yellow Labs cannot carry black as yellow is recessive.

The info I have got from VETGEN says that yellows either carry ; yell/blk eeBB, yell/blk/choc eeBb or yell/choc eebb.

Broomie, where would you think the black puppies have come from because choc labs DO NOT carry the black gene so therefore the yellow must be.

http://www.vetgen.com/color.html

Look at the above link and see what you make of it, sorry you have to copy and paste as i haven't learnt links yet!!!

Chocymolly.

Edited to add
This is even better; http://labbies.com/genetics.htm

If chocolate Labs don't carry the black gene than how come I've got two home bred black dogs here that have a chocolate mother?

So what colour was the sire?

Sorry, I'm just going on the info that I have been given and also that, that i have read.

did you look at the websites?

Also have a look at the KC website under the DNA testing as it has info on there.

Dam is chocolate with a black sire herself and the pup's sire is black carrying all three colours.

There's your answer - the black is from the sire, not the dam. Although her sire was black, he was obviously carrying chocolate, or she wouldn't be chocolate.

so the sire is black carrying all three colours,  this is where you get a black puppy from a chocolate dam.

The website i showed you is so useful for trying to work out before matings ,what a particular mating will produce as is the link that Jeangenie provided.

Broomie, Just out of interest, did you have any yellow puppies in the litter or was it just black and chocs?

Do you now know what your dogs from this litter will likely be carrying?

Hi Chocymolly
Sorry to be so slow getting back to you - I'm choked with the flu and feeling grotty so I hope this makes some sense........

I have twice mated a black dog carrying chocolate to a chocolate bitch (she has 1 black & 1 choc parent). Statistically I was expecting approx half black and half chocolate and no yellow. (In these instances I was actually closer to two thirds choc and one third black). The blacks from these litters will carry chocolate and if mated with a chocolate should again hopefully produce the same as above. It's also good practice whatever colour is being bred to keep on reintroducing black regularly or loss of pigment will occur.

Interestingly, the puppies sire is a black dog (who as I've said has sired all three colours) with a yellow (red fox) sire (whose parents are a black dog and yellow bitch) and a black dam (who has a choc dam and black sire). All of his litter were black (as I expected) and should carry yellow but I don't know if they all carry chocolate.

Hope this helps... I've got black and yellow sussed but chocolate's just sooooo difficult...........  LOL!

Hi Broomie,

Chocolate is difficult, I have a choc bitch and was set to mate her with a black dog carrying choc so I thought I was doing the right thing by introducing the black back for pigmentation etc, I then discovered that he also carried yellow and for me this is a big no,no.The reason I won't do this , is because there is no yellow in Molly at all and by using this dog i would have had some the results below, the same as your litter? I want to achieve chocolate puppies who do not carry yellow gene or a mixed litter of black carrying choc and choc puppies(no yellow)

If your puppies are black from a black dog carrying all 3 colours and a choc bitch who is not carrying yellow then statistically you would expect to have 50% blk & 50% choc puppies.From that 25% may be blk carrying choc, 25% blk carrying all 3 colours, 25% pure choc(no yellow) 25% choc carrying yellow. So they should all carry choc. I would hazard a guess that the choc dam didn't carry yellow.

Ideally, I would mate Molly to a black carrying choc and blk only, or alternatively a choc who is not carrying yellow but who also has some black as a parent or grandparent.

If you go to http://labbies.com/genetics.htm and save the info to your computer ,you will have it to refer to, it looks confusing to start with and takes a little working out but once you've read it through several hundred times!! it becomes quite clear.Easier to read if you print it off.

Sure way of knowing what your puppies are carrying if you intend on keeping any is to have the coat color test done.

Chocymolly

P.S Broomie,

I hope you're feeling not so groggy now!!

Chocymolly.

According to the sites google turns up like this, chocolate can only carry yellow, not black, because black is dominant to chocolate - if the black gene is there it will over-ride and mask the chocolate. Your black dogs will have inherited the gene from their sire.

My goodness Lab colour breeding's complicated - I thought Cavalier colours were weird, but you people really must have a headache!!

Hi Lucy,

I certainly have had several sleepless nights over this subject when deciding what to mate my Lab with, but after studying it for several days and talking to a number of people I think that at last i've got it sussed.
Did you know there are 81 possible outcomes for litter colouring between the 3 colours of Labs?

I wondered if it's the same for Cocker Spaniels too?

>Sorry I am totally confused on this Chocolate gene mix. And need some expert advise please

Then surely the research should have been done before the mating not after the pups were born
 

>If  I used the same stud again is it likely .they will all be black again? Many thanks

Please dont even consider it....,,

IF, there ever is a next time, Please take your time, do your research and speak to the EXPERTS, not just a person who has mated their pet dog.   There are many good Labrador breeders out there only too happy to pass on a wealth of knowledge. Colour genetics are a minefield, and a good breeder should be your 1st port of call. BUT this is not the only consideration to be taken into account. Please find yourself a good mentor, start way back at the beginning.  Also, please have your bitch assessed before considering mating her again. How do you know that she was a good enough example of her breed to have considered this litter in the 1st place.....

I imagine it's even worse for Cockers and Yankees, with the number of different colours they come in!! Think I'll just stick to particolour Cavs!

yes of course yellows can carry  black, how do you get black puppies out a yellow  bitch or dog if yellows don't carry black

I assumed the black would come from the black parent, not the yellow one, if black's dominant over yellow. In my simplified GCSE genetics terminology, the black parent would have Black/Yellow genotypes giving Black phenotype, and the yellow parent would have Yellow/Yellow genotypes giving Yellow phenotype. The black puppies would then have Black from the Black parent and Yellow from the Yellow parent, and the Black genotype would be dominant over the Yellow. No idea how the chocolate bit comes in though!! :-)

LucyD

I don't think you can have yellow/yellow genotype, they can be yellow carry blk, yellow carrying blk/yellow/choc, or they can be yellow carrying choc,

so the puppies would have blk from both parents

Original post was;

>Sorry I am totally confused on this Chocolate gene mix. And need some expert advise please. Dam yellow, Sire chocolate, puppies all black no colour variations. If  I used the same stud again is it likely they will all be black again? Many thanks <

the poster was hoping for choc as had used a choc sire to a yellow bitch, however bcause the bitch didn't carry choc she didn't get any choc puppies.

As to pat41 's post, now I understand a little more on genotypes I woud see mating choc to yellow dogs as a huge NO,NO!!

I definitely wouldn't risk any of my puppies having light eyes by mating any dog that carries yellow to my choc bitch, where is the good pigmentation in that, not what most people would regard as good, sensible breeding plan.

Hi Robin Queen,

Basically if you use a true yellow to a true chocolate you will always get black.  This has been tried and tested by The Boothgates.  the best combination would be yellow to black, black to chocolate, black to black ,chocolate to chocolate, yellow to yellow.  Yellow to chocolate is frowned apon but there are breeders in Europe that do do this.  As you already know the results from using this stud dog, and you wanted to change and get different colours I would try something else.

What is a TRUE yellow???????

I assume that cprice996 is referring to a Yellow that does not carry the gene for Chocolate. Thus an eeBB dog :)

Yes you must be right ice cosmos, yellow carrying blk,
I just wondered if she thought that there was a yellow dog that just carried yellow by saying a true yellow,
I must admit it wasn't 'til I really started looking into all of this that I realised that Yellows always carried another colour.

Still, doesn't affect me, I'm only interested in Chocs really!

I do wish I could do smiley faces like others!!!!

Chocymolly

Smilies ;)

;)

got it!!!

tried once before but it didn't work, I think I left a space before! so happy I've worked it out now, feel like one of the family now :)

:D

I love labs and will have another at some point (though not for quite a few years). However my personal favourites are the yellows, with blacks coming a very close second. I don't actually like the chocolates myself so i'm the opposite to you :)

When I decided to get a dog, first choice was a labrador which was supposed to be a black dog and from there I progressed to ending up with a chocolate bitch. The trouble with chocolates I think is that there are not many really nice ones, I personally think I'm very lucky with the bitch that I have, she has a lovely dark chocolate coat and the same eyes that you get with a black dog, and lots of expression.I am really pleased with how she looks and It's not until you have a good one that you notice all the shoddy ones that are around.

I like all the colours but now I have my chocolate they are the ones for me :)

I'm different again! I'd have a black any day, but a yellow would have to be really special for me to be interested. I wouldn't even consider a chocolate.

Just shows that it takes all sorts. :)

>> Just shows that it takes all sorts.  :)

Very true :)

I'm not particularly keen on red/chocolate dogs of most breeds, but this is purely personal preference. In Mals, Red is my least favourite colour and the same in Aussies (though some Red tri's are quite nice, but i'm not too keen on Red Merles)

I agree JG - blacks are my first choice.  Did have a lovely yellow years ago, but I would never consider a chocolate - and don't want to cause any offense to anyone, but really can't understand the attraction for them or why they have become so popular :o

I'm the same as Jeangenie--always had blacks. Kept my first ever yellow dog from a litter I bred last spring, There was just something about him and as yet have not been disappointed. Don't go for chocolates that much but have seen some super ones--never say never.

Morning All, :D

As you all say, we all have our preference and I'm not offended by those that would never consider chocolates,
I'm just so pleased with the one I have and would have a black Lab too, not too keen on the yellows but that doesn't mean I would turn one away! :)

Chocymolly.

To me, labradors are ALWAYS black too!!!  I have nothing against the yellows & choccies, but for over 50 years, we've always had black labbies!

Margot

Hi All,  Not sure actually just read it in an interview with the Boothgates.  I have a feeling they mean a yellow to yellow pedigree that does not contain any other colour, and visa versa with chocolates.  They also state to be prepared for the odd surprises!!!! So I dont think how far you go back their could still be the odd colour gene floating around in history.  No doubt about to witness this myself if Clara (Chocolate), who has recently been mated with black carrying all colours, is expecting.  Oh by the way ChocMolly how did you get the smiley face?

Hi cprice996,:)

Yellows are always carrying something, hopefully you will just get blk and choc pups from your mating.Smiley faces came from the link provided by ice cosmos, look further up the page.;)

chocymolly

Yellow to yellow matings cannot produce any other colour except yellow, regardless of what the Dam and Sire carry....

That is true - you could get different colour pigment (depending on the genes the sire and dam were carrying) but the coat colour would always be yellow.

I was thinking that too, so if both yellow dogs carried just the chocolate gene, this would produce yellow pups with choc noses?
Is that correct?

Chocymolly.

If both the sire and dam were eebb (so yellow with liver/brown pigment) then all pups would be yellow with liver/brown pigment :( However theoretically, if you mated an eeBb dog with an eeBb or eebb, then the pups could have either black or liver/brown pigment (approx 25% in first scenario and approx 50% in second scenario).

Sounds like Yellow matings could be potentially as difficult as getting the chocolate matings right!:)

Maybe this is why most people prefer black labradors  :p

Yup :D  No yellows are not nearly as difficult as chocolates, However you do have a massive range in the actual coat colouring from a pale yellow to a fox red.  Also, before the pigmentation on the nose changes at around 3-4 days, you can tell an eeBb as their little willlies :D are also black.....;) No remarks please :)