Interesting letter in DW this week, bringing attention to the rule in the Crufts schedule that only wire mesh cages may be used.  Has this rule always been there, but hasn't been enforced, or is it new this year due to the increase in the soft cages?  Can't say I ever read the rules particularly, oops.

Any views? 

M.

It was there last year aswell having just had this discussed message board i'm a member of. :D

It has always been a rule that the dogs must be on view and any cages must not be covered up.  So this must be a clarification to shwo that the KC do not consider the mesh cages give a reasonable view of the dogs.

I agree with the author of the letter in DW... now that discover dogs is at Crufts there's no need for people to come round the benches expecting to see our dogs on display on the benches.  I've always had a cover (a lightweight one) over my crates at Crufts for a portion of the day to allow the dogs to sleep quietly without distractions.  I now use fabric crates and will be doing so at Crufts 2007 (not exhibiting the PHs in 2006).  If the Kennel Club view this as breaking the rules then so be it - my dogs' comfort and welfare come first.

Haven't read that letter but I don't think I agree with it.  There are two sorts of spectators at Crufts, one will be people with just a curiosity, passing interest or at best seeking a puppy for a pet who may well find their needs satisfied by Discover Dog area, the other will be those who are there either showing or not who want to have a closer look at the dogs entered I find it very disappointing when you seek out a particular dog on its bench only to find it not there or totally obscured from view.  Some exhibitors may find this intrusive and wish their dogs were not on public display but that is how the Championship Show system runs at the moment and that is what they are opting to enter.

I agree dogs should be left to rest, caged, coverd etc from the GP if the owner wishes so.  I also think dogs must be occumpanied at all times.  BUt this is not always possible unless Crufts employee's people to watch benches!!!

I will be sittig at the red and white benches with our 4 dogs looking after them, only away when showing.  The public are more then welcome to come up to me, talk about the breed and fuss the dogs on my say so! :)  I don't have a problem with the public talkig to me abou my dogs and my breed!

On further reading, 'Comment' on page 6 of DW is also mentioning this as a change to the rule which is new for this year, in that Crufts are specifying that only wire mesh cages can be used.  I wonder if they will actually have anyone policing this? - think they might have a busy day. :D

For my part, I think my dogs are far more comfortable and relaxed in a soft crate which is virtually covered.  My view is that the dogs' comfort should be first and foremost.  I am regularly by my bench, and if anyone particularly wants to see my dog (that'll be the day LOL), they would be welcome to ask and I'd be happy to get the dog out and chat.

Fortunately, I don't intend taking a dog to Crufts this year, so will watch with interest to see if anything is made of it.

M.

It will be very interesting if they do try to police it, however we all know the rules of dogs being on benches apart from when in the ring or for toilet stops are not enforced. Should be fun.

I've actually been going back and forth on this issue all day.  I don't like being told what kind of crate I can put my dog in, but lets think about it from a liablity point of view and a safety point of view.  Dogs CAN AND DO get out of mesh crates, AND mesh crates are easily cut into and dogs can be stolen.  A wire crate can be padlocked and no chance of escaping dog or stolen dog.  I had already planned to use a metal crate because I don't want anyone to take my dogs (maybe I'm paranoid, but with several thousand dogs and people, well.....

Imagine half a dozen loose dogs because they got out of their mesh crates.  Imagine coming back to your crate to find a huge knife hole in it and your dog gone....  They might be more comfortable in a mesh crate, but they are safer in wire in this particular show. 

As I said - I don't like being TOLD I have no choice, but take away the 'public' reason and use the safety reason and I'm all there for wire crates.

Wendy

>As I said - I don't like being TOLD I have no choice, but take away the 'public' reason and use the safety reason >and I'm all there for wire crates.

There's another side as well though. People can put their fingers into a wire cage.(And can put stuff inside it too, like food.) Now I would never ever leave any dog of mine unattended on a bench, my breed isn't one suited for it, but I can guarantee that if they were left and a stranger put their fingers inside the cage, they would get bitten. With the soft cages it's easy enough to ask somebody nearby that you know to keep an eye on it for a moment.

True.  I will be using a cover over the crate so hopefully that would deter, but yes, I have seen people pull covers off and stick fingers in.  I'm more than happy to have people come round and talk to me and play with the dogs if I'm there.  The public should be advised to NOT touch the dogs unless there is a handler there to speak to.  Just because it's a benched show doesn't give them license to maul the animals :(  so yes I see your point.

I still think the non-showing public should be banned from the benching areas. They now have DD where they can meet the breeds, they should be allowed ringside to see the judging, and if they want to talk to a specific person someone can fetch them.

The trouble is that no matter if you are there or not and how well you try to supervise your dogs there will always be the occasions where kids go up to a sleeping dog, surprise it and then get bitten.  It has happened in my breed twice over the last few years and leaves a very nasty atmosphere where the blameless dog and exhibitor are barred from exhibiting until a full enquiry has been held etc etc etc

However this does not stop the gossip mill and rumour mongering tainting reputations.

I believe the public should stay away from benches they can see dogs in the ring and in Discover Dogs and if they want to speak to a particular person they can arrange it easily enough.

HI Im of to crufts and im still going to use a soft crate Im disabled and trying to carry a wire cage is out of the question. plus my dog is a lot happier in a soft crate .he curls up and goes to sleep no trouble. Mind you I never leave my dogs not safe. Have known one dog in our breed being left when owner went back to take it in the ring she found it had been drugged that was in a wire crate.But there is fore and againsts both types I suppose.

But on the other hand, as someone else has said, people might want to see a particular dog. Take me, I will be exhibiting my Cavalier on Saturday (and won't leave him!), but am considering coming back on Sunday as I have friends in Springers and Yankees. I would be sorry to be barred from going to see my friends, and my dog's father and sister, etc. I think the public should be warned not to approach unattended dogs, and people on benches should keep an eye out for dogs being annoyed even if they haven't been asked specifically.

There would be no need for you to be barred from seeing anyone or any dog. You'd just need someone (and there are loads of people at the ringside) to contact them and they could come and talk to you and vouch for you. Easy.

What do people think would happen if the general public tried to get into the stabling area of the Royal International Horse Show to look at the horses waiting to be shown in conformation classes?  It's no different to our dogs being shown at Crufts.  I don't know why the public need to come near the benches.  If they want to know something about a particular breed they could go to DDs or even arrange with the owner of a particular dog before hand to meet their dogs.  They can always ask at ringside when the owner leaves the ring.  All it would need would be a pass/ring number to get in and out of the benching area.

I have no objection to the public coming round the benches as it used to be but if the KC are going to come down hard about soft crates and basically demand that your dog is on show at all times then the whole thing needs to be rethought.

Is it just me or do other folk think that exhibitors get a rough deal at Crufts ? - we pay huge amounts to enter, often travel for hours to get there, have to lug bags,crate etc miles from the car park whilst trying to keep our dogs as clean as we can - I have yet to meet anyone who does all this so that the general public can stare at and manhandle their dogs !!!- we enter Champ shows in order to compete against the best or our breed. The benches should be restricted areas - open only to those who have entered their dogs - there should also be toilets/refreshment stands in this restricted area soley for their use - after all we are often rushing to get dogs ready for the ring , why should we have to queue for ages behind those that have just come for a gawp at the dogs or to do their shopping:( Now that Discover Dogs is firmly established there is no good reason why those who are not exhibitors need tyo wander round the benches - last year  a family told me that Discover Dogs was too crowded so they thought they'd come and stroke the dogs on the benches instead
Crufts becomes more manic every year and is , I believe the most stressful of shows for our dogs - surely they deserve to have an area where they can be guaranteed some peace and privacy

Yvonne

Exactly why I rarely support the show Yvonne.  It's just another Champ Show that to me is not fair on the dogs at all. :(

Re the toilets:  I think there should be changing rooms.  I like my suits clean when I go in the ring so walk in and groom dogs in jeans and T and then get changed.  Sometimes I have to wait ages just to get changed in the toilets that I've given up!  Grab 1-2 people to stand round me holding a jacket/cloth/towel and get changed at the benches...Do the public REALLY want to see that!?

What might be nice is the dog show in 2-3 of the halls (only for show dogs and their exhibitors and handlers) and the trade fair/discover dogs in 2-3 halls!!! :D

I would not dream of handling let alone manhandling someone elses dogs and anyone who does so should be told in no uncertain terms of the error of their ways but I definately go to stare at them or gawp if you prefer :) that is what a public dog show is all about.  Admittedly Crufts is very much busier that any other show but you know that when you enter.  The Kennel Club clearly want it to continue to be a spectator affair and I do feel that if people enter a show run by them they have to accept the rules that the KC are running it under.  Either lobby them to change the way they run it or do not enter but do not ask people who turn up to look, abiding by the rules in the catalogue regarding touching or photographing, not to do so.  You can't always get a good ring side view with the more popular breeds and you don't always know which dog you wish to see and "send for it" because one of the reasons you may be there is you want to see what is about having been unable to attend all the other Champ shows up and down the country.

Most definitely exhibitors get a raw deal at Crufts - the organisers (and Exhibition Centre staff) seem to forget that if it were not for the exhibitors, there would be no Crufts!   Last year, we got caught in traffic as we approached, we had our exhibitors' car park passes - but were we allowed into those car parks? No!  I flipped at that and let the organisers of the parking know, in no uncertain terms, that this sort of thing is just not on!   We then had to hack our way through the crowds, from hall 1, I think, to Hall 6 (or it might have been the other way round - senior moment) complete with dogs, crates and everything else!    After all, when your dogs aren't scheduled to be shown until lunchtime, do you really need to get them there at 7am????

I really think that the next time we qualify, I'll order crates from the crate people at crufts, send an advance party to get 'em & put them in the benching area, then come through with dog(s)!!!  I'll then sell them afterwards!

Margot

Margot last year hall 5 to hall 1 ;) :D

I think it's a shame the GP seem to have no common sense (yes I have steryotyped) that they come up and just touch dogs.  I remember I had a rant on here just after crufts if anyone wishes to find it! :D  Boy I do believe I went on!  It will explain why I think the public are more stupid then we first think!!! :D

common sense is not that common, 

Slightly at a tangent, I can't remember whether I was sent a schedule last year or had to order one. I have exhibited for the last two years at Crufts - will they send me one automatically or not? :-)

They normally send you one out if you exhibited the previous year.

"that is what a public dog show is all about. "

Well here I was thinking that it was about competing my dogs against others in the ring - If your definition of dog shows is correct then the KC could save themselves a whole lot of bother by eliminating the 'showing' part ( after all all those exhibitors are such a pain !) - and turn the whole thing into one big Discover Dogs

Sorry folks but I WILL cover my dogs cages if I think it necessary and I will NOT allow my dogs to be approached by strangers whilst on the bench - has the KC forgotten the biting incident that happened when a child tried to stroke a benched dog ?.

Yvonne

It's not the folks you need to convince it is the KC if you want the rules changed :) There may be an arguement for requesting the KC to do more about security around the benches, prominent notices about not touching the dogs would be a start, but I suspect they would just say dogs should be accompanied at all times after all, historically, they have been at far more risk from other competitors in a more sinister and dangerous way. As long as the KC take my money as a spectator it remains a show for spectators as well as far as I can see.

Isabel - you say "As long as the KC take my money as a spectator it remains a show for spectators as well as far as I can see. "

Are you aware just how much exhibiters pay for you to have something to look at???

Here are the costs for Crufts 2006:-
First entry @ £20 per dog
(additional classes with same dog free of charge)
Cataloges @ £4.50 (1 per exhibitor only)
Extra cataloges £6.00
Extra passes £10.50 adult £6.50 child/senior citizen
Faimly ticket £32.00 (2 adults & 2 concessions)
Car park £7.00 (NOT DROP OFF)]
Kennel Club Health foundation fund donation £1

So, if we take our 2004 exhibits as an example, we had 3 dogs entered - £60.00, family ticket, 32.00 + 1 extra pass £10.50, car park £7.00, 2 cataloges 10.50 + donation = £121.00.

Paying that sort of money, I do feel tht my dogs are entitled to be kept safe!

After all, if WE don't turn up with our dogs, there would be nothing for you to see!

Margot

I pay about half as much as a dog entry to get in and don't get a free catalogue so that comes out to pretty much the same as an exhibitor showing one dog.  All travel expenses are just the same for me.
I can assure you your dogs are perfectly safe from me :) 

Safe from you. yes Isobel, because you know dogs ......but often Mr & Mrs G Public seem to think that such shows are like a "petting zoo" for their offspring ..........:(

>I pay about half as much as a dog entry to get in and don't get a free catalogue<

Since when do exhibitors get free catalogues ?

One year I took my three beardies to Crufts & had to take two helpers to keep an eye on the dogs whilst I was in the ring

Even having someone one the benches all the time & having the dogs watched didn't stop one little"darling"tipping their fizzy drink all over the feet of my champion bitch whilst she was on the grooming table & having another one run her sticky hands the wrong way up my other bitches coat  just as I was getting her off the bench to get ready to go in the ring.Ever tried to get sticky sweet out of a dogs coat in 10 minutes without using water etc ?

Add to this the crush round the benches God help everyone if there was a fire as the poor dogs would never get out

One year I asked a visitor to let me get my dog into the ring(they were blocking the entrance)& i got a load of verbal abuse ending with"anyone would think the dogs are important at Crufts":rolleyes:

OK so the catalogues are not free I assumed they were when Margot only bought 2 for 3 dogs entered, though still rather puzzled about all that my dogs were always happy to share theirs :D  All the others expenses are still the same though so not a cheap day out for anyone.
Are you suggesting we ban spectators from ringside as well?  I have been to many a show not generally afflicted with the public and seen exhibitors getting in the way in a very royal fashion, cages an all, and being pretty rude about it when asked to move even by the stewards :)
I have no doubt some spectators do behave badly but as I walk about the benches, I have to say, I see the vast majority of people, doing the same, quietly going about looking at the dogs.  I don't think we should overplay the dangers from the public because as I say, historically, far worse things have been done by fellow exhibitors.

Normally, I would only buy 1 catalogue for a show, but at Crufts we have to have 1 person with the dogs at the benches, and someone else at the ringside and it's not easy to pass catalogues from 1 person to the other!  You don't need 1 cataloge per dog - in fact when we've attended other champshows with friends, we'll share a catalogue, just pulling out the relevant pages!

Margot

:) Nevertheless creative accounting Margot ;)  Of course I have the expense of putting mine in kennels for 24 hours as I can't take them with me :D

Well it has just cost me £42 to enter ONE dog. Even if we took away £7 for the car park as MOST (but not all! People do arrive by train!) spectators have to park as well, that still leaves £20 entry, £10.50 for second person's pass as there is no way on earth I can go on my own as I would not even be able to go to toilet if somebody wasn't watching the dog, and the catalogue is a must at £4.50. So that is then £35 to enter one dog -and that is a lot more than one person would pay to get in!

No, not creative accounting, Isobel - how do you get to that point?

And I didn't give any costs for having someone come in and look after the other dogs for the day, bearing in mind that we have to leave before 5am if we are in the ring at 9, in order to get up to Brum from Essex in time, allowing for the fact that there are NO special arrangements for parking for exhibitors,AND we have to keep dogs at Crufts until 4.30.p.m. before being allowed out with them....

I still stick to my point, exhibtors' dogs are entitled to more security than at present allowed - if there were no dogs exhibited, would you still pay to go????

Margot

I was being light hearted but I do have exactly the same travelling expenses as an exhibitor of which the actual entry fee is a fraction and I seriously do kennel my dogs sometimes, particularly if I go on a Sunday which means staying over night to get there at start of judging.  If I go on gundog day I generally meet up with my friend exhibiting on her own which allows her to go about the stalls etc. If I don't she generally asks others she knows and is regularly benched next to to reciprocate with cover as I believe a lot of people do.  But all this quibbling about expenses is way off point. No matter what it costs any of us we are choosing to be there knowing how the KC runs things.
If all I was offered was a scramble for a view around the rings, which would be infinately worse if the benches were out of bounds, then no I probably wouldn't go to this particular show, but clearly the KC want it to remain a very public show.

And I say again.... if you went to a horse show at Wembly or the NIA would you expect to be able to go into the stabling area?  There's a lot of things exhibitors would love to change about Crufts but it's not easy getting the Kennel Club to change it's mind.  Every year it gets more and more geared towards the spectator and many established exhibitors are voting with their feet and either not entering at all or taking less dogs.  Of course there's more newbies every year who enter their dogs "just because it's Crufts".  To my mind it'd be far more beneficial for a spectator to watch the dogs inthe ring or Discover Dogs - after all... what's so interesting about watching dogs sleep on a bench?

I think the separation of the commerical side & the actual dog show would be the best idea. I don't really see the relevance of some of the stalls like the handiman stall

Even better would be to have the non dog stuff in one place, the dog related stalls in another & the actual show in other halls & DD in a hall of it's own.

That might at least spread out the masses away from the benches. The only place there was anything like a decent atmosphere for the dogs was the obedience bencing & i think that is only because they are near the main ring & isolated from the rest of the show

My real interest at Crufts is the Obedience TBH as I already have a good idea which dogs will be winning in the breeds I have an interest in. At least a few of my friends are in with a chance of winning the only Crufts Championships on offer(as opposed to CC's etc0

Benching like the FCI shoiws on the continent provide at least give the dogs real protection-not feasible at Crufts due the size of the entry i think

>Even better would be to have the non dog stuff in one place, the dog related stalls in another & the actual show >in other halls & DD in a hall of it's own.

Perfect MM. Can we all vote to have you in charge please? :D

>One year I asked a visitor to let me get my dog into the ring(they were blocking the entrance)& i got a load of >verbal abuse ending with"anyone would think the dogs are important at Crufts"

2 years running now, when trying to fight my way through the masses to get to our bench upon arrival (it never seems to be anywhere near the entrace we are told to go through!) I have heard people muttering things like "Can't believe people are bringing their PET DOGS to Crufts!" They don't even know the difference between a pedigree show dog and a mongrel.......

I for one believe it would be perfectly possible to stop the public from having access to the benches.  They could rope off the benches so that the dogs and exhibitors are on one side of the rope and the public at the other -at least it would give a HINT of something........ (The determined, especially kids, will of coruse just duck under, but it's got to be better than now.)

It would be the simplest thing in the world to seperate the benching area off from the general public the feasability is clearly not what is stopping the KC.

At the moment the KC has seems to have a policy that aims to make dog shows a day out for anyone and everyone regardless of what the exhibitors think. Crufts is the worst example but there is also the introduction of visitors dog passes and such like.
Peoples views on the above?

IThe trend has been that way for the past few years,

They moved the Obedience Championships away from the weekend for starters, then introduced extra none dog related things like face painting & the climbing wall.

Wasn't the DD part meant to take the pressure off the exhibitors ?

They could well afford to rearrange the halls so that they shopping was in one part, dog activities in another & the showing(breed & obedience)in another

They could also group all the similar stalls together instead of all mixed in together as well.

I stopped taking dogs to Crufts to show ages ago my dogs don't show well indoors & I hate the hassle. I've been there with them for other things which they have enjoyed like the DD & KCGC scheme as they can be themselves & not have to work at being show dogs

TBH it's a money making venture for the KC(ie the profit & business for themselves)It's no longer primarily a dog show & hasn't been for years

Entries will drop even more! :(

When I took a new puppy out 1990. there were never less than 40 entries in MPB or PB.  We would be thrilled to get 3rd and qualify out of that lot!  These days if there are 10 in the classes, it's considered a good entry!
When winning BOB at a club show, we beat 342 other dogs.  Now the total entry is rarely over 100.

To me, dog shows should be to maintain and improve the breed standard and should be set up with the exhibitor and dogs in mind.  It's not unusual to see children playing tag around the benches, which is why I now use cage fronts on my girl's benches, having seen many dogs prodded, poked and trodden on if they are on the floor!

I still go to shows to watch and see who is winning, what dogs are producing what faults and virtues, especially temperament in my breed.  After 20 years I don't need a judge to tell me the plus and minus points of my dogs but I do need to be able to objectively judge mine against the current winners.  But I must say that dog shows are not the fun days out that they used to be for me.

So now you are a spectator just like me :)  My reasons for not showing anymore are not the same as yours but we have ended up attending for exactly the same reason and yet you don't seem to think you are a nuisance to have at the show.

I show occasionally Isabel, but no, I don't think that retired exhibitors, or people genuinely interested in the dogs who know how to behave at shows, are a problem.  But Joe Public who just want a day out and think that it's OK to prod and poke dogs who are resting on their benches without asking, or even worse, allowing their children to use the dog show as a play ground, are a liability.  There were already an increasing number of these types of spectators before the Kennel Club thought it was a good idea to allow them to bring their dogs too! :(

But how do you go about banning them and not you and me?

Dunno!! ;)

Maybe be by being members of breed clubs?