Hi Guys

was wondering what you though on this matter.

I have memeber of staff who the other day was extremley aggresive and and has refused to do certain taks within her job desciption.  I had her in today to inform her we where going to take disciplinary action against her as she was very agressive which under our prdecdures s classed as gross misconduct.

during our meeting today after explaining the disciplinary route and her meeting would be on Tuesday she said I want to appologise as I am pregnant and my hormones are all over the place. 

I basically said because the offece had taken place before she informed me of pregnacy I would contiue with the disciplinary as we cant have another reaction like she had and plus this was in front of staff which basicaly sets a presedent that this type of behavious is acceptable.  she also of her own back admited that her perfomance is not up to standad. 

After the meeting other members of staff told me different stories ie she told one she only had intercourse last week and found out she was prgnant monday and told another that she was six weeks pregnant, did a test on monday however the line was really faint?.

Basically what would you do in this situation.  Ideally we need to get rid of her as her behaviour was unacceptable but as you can imagine my personal fears of her being pregnat and loosing a job just before christmas.  however on the other hand I have a business to run.

what would you do>?

This is a difficult one. I take it that the person concerned has access to a Union Rep. Is there a personnel person to advise or someone that has a good working knowledge of the Employment law? It is normally very difficult to sack anyone on the spot as it were unless there was gross misconduct which normally would involve actual assault, theft, drink related issues. If this a first offence then you need to be careful especially if you are going to highlight other issues IE her work standards. You can only take severe disciplinary action for other issues if there has been prior oral warnings, 1st written and final written warnings in these cases.
As for the pregnancy issue you cannot accept hearsay from other members of staff staff you need to speak with the person involved and accept that what they are saying is the truth, by all means back up the up the information given with perhaps offering an appointment at Occupational Health as you feel that her current situation is causing concern.
I speak from a Senior Management position within the Health Service and aware that other companies hold different policies but you don't want to find yourself up for Constructive Dismissal or at a tribunal. In this day and age of family friendly policies etc you need to be squeaky clean and have a fair and just reason to go ahead with a gross misconduct.

Hi their

thanks for you comments.

It is even harder really because I am aself employeed person running my own business and acas is not open till monday.

but Thanks very much for your comments
x

I gathered you had your own buisness from the gist of your posting. There are plenty of sites dedicated to Employment Law online, maybe worth an hour or two to get an idea of your rights as an Employer.

Hi

Perhaps this young lady has troubles at home and is suffering maybe from depression as I did at one firm who I took to a tribunal but not for the reason that you have spoke about.
Home life problems can often lead to work problems and sometimes a nice friendly chat can help discover whats going on. Sleepless nights, anxiety and small problems that seem like a mountain can soon change a person.
No one helped me and it was hell so perhaps that friendly chat would help. I might well be a man but I'm not ashamed in saying I needed a shoulder to cry on.
By the way I'm all over it now and life is so much better thanks to my wonderful doctor who I owe so much too.

Regards
Stu

You have to deal with pregnant employees very carefully in order not to fall foul of the sex discrimmination act & I think even gross misconduct situations also fall in this section of the law

The best thing you can do is check out the employment law & pregnancy as I think it doesn't matter whether you are aware that the employee is prefnant at the time the incident occurred-it could be you are not allowed to take any misconduct action during pregnancy, have a look here you need to scroll down a bit & this only covers the Employment law & not the Sex Discrimmination Act

Sorry to butt in on the topic, but i have a discilinary hearing regarding illnes coming up, do you know if you are allowed to take a member of your family with you or does it have to be someone from within the company?

I think you are allowed anyone you like TU rep etc

It can be Trade Union Rep/ other member of Staff or a friend, I have seen family members attend BUT they are not the most helpful because they get too emotionally involved and ends up in a slanging match. Best stick to a Trade Union rep

Thankyou herbiedax and minipeace i was thinking of taking a family member as i don't know anyone else who knows the ins and outs of being an employer other than my father who has been a prison govenour for years. Anyway he is coming round to discuss things with me tomorrow so hopefully will tell me all i need to know. Thankyou for your replys. I was going to go on my own as there is no union i know of and don't really trust anyone that i work with not to discuss thing out of the meeting.

Hi louise

Its all down to the company procedures and if they would allow a member of your family to join in but try not to worry as its not the end of the world as most are shall we say interesting.
Hope it goes well and if you are really worried then you can always record the conversation in case its needed if they go around it in the wrong way.

And to be fair to all sides an employer can insure against an employment case by using a handful of companies that offer this service and who will take care of all legal cases and even pay if they lose.

Stu

Yes,
It is different in the case of pregnancy. I think you can go ahead in some cases of disciplinary hearings and in the event of dismissal the Employer has to give the Employee a written statement of reasons for dismissal. A woman has this right without any qualifying period of employment and without request if she is dismissed while pregnant or after childbirth.

I always had great difficulty in disciplining female members of staff as there is a Law protecting them for every event in their life!!......... Give me a man anytime, far far easier..... :-D Is that against the Sex Discrimination Act !!

Is it acceptable conduct to discuss an employees personal life with other employees?

In what context Snowallan? The only people who should be discussing the personal life of an Employee are the Employer and staff involved with any disciplinary/hearing , Trade Union Reps, Personnel, and anyone that the Employee wishes to be involved.

Hi

thanks for your coments

I think I better speak to our solicitor on this one.  The memebr of staff in question does suffer from depression and we have supported this as best as we can ie giving her time off to speak to councilors beig more leanient with her etc.  but half of me thinks is she really pregnant or is this just a excuse to protect her from being sacked as she telephoned my assistant manager to tell her what to do and said she thinks  she is going to get the sack what can she do then next day she tells her she is pregnant.

Plus if I let her stay surley this sets an example to the other memebers of staff that it exceptable to speak to management like that and able to go around being aggresive when you dont want to do a simple task.  In a team of 10 with only me beig the only male its quiet easy for this to catch on and blame hormones.  I even heard memebrs of staff joking about this today

Hi Thompson

I'm sorry to hear she suffers from depression and that this has also caused you concern out of work hours.
There is no simple answer to this and your piggy in the middle and I do understand your feelings.
It takes a long time to recover from this illness and like her I made life hard for those around.
I'm glad to hear you have tried to help, good for you as many don't and it may be that nothing you can offer can help her.
Hope it all turns out well for both of you.

Regards
Stu

Quote "After the meeting other members of staff told me different stories ie she told one she only had intercourse last week and found out she was prgnant monday and told another that she was six weeks pregnant, did a test on monday however the line was really faint?."

I thought it was unacceptable to discuss these matters with anyone other than the employee involved?

Hi what I ment was members of staff were comming up saying (memeber of staff) told me she has just turned pregnant and thinks she has been sacked, is that what you did today, to which I replied no comment.  I certainly did not mean I was going around broadcasting it etc

x

Okay I am with you now. No you cannot discuss an employees personal life with other members of staff and you cannot meet with staff with the intention of discussing an employee. In a small workforce where everybody would probably know everyone elses buisness it would be difficult not for staff to talk about an employee but any such information cannot be used against the employee.

Hi Snowallen
Yep if they wish too. The directors would still be in the company and the personnel manager if they had and to confirm it even the court asked them did they not reconize my depression and why they had not at least spoke to me to see if they could help. So the answer is yes.

Regards
Stu

Hi Thompson1,

If your employee has depression, depending on how long they have had it and how severe its' effects are, they may be covered by the Disability Discrimination Act.  This would put a legal onus on you to make reasonable adjustments in their employment to take account of the effects of the depression on their work - an example of reasonable adjustment would be doing as you have done and allowing time off for counselling.  You might, and I emphasise the might, also have to deal with an outburst in a different manner as to that in which you would deal with a non disabled employee having a similar outburst.

Add to this consideration that your employee says she is pregnant, then I think consulting your solicitor would be the most sensible thing to do :)

Best wishes

Lesley

Golly doesn't all this make you realise what a mine field it is to employ anyone these days? :(
You only need a few incidents of aggressive behaviour in front of customers, and you'll have no business left to worry about!! :(

And one person not pulling their weight in a team puts pressure on all the other employees - and who's to know what problems they have in their lives?!  In a big business, you can lose a person without causing great hardship, but in a small business it's a very different ball game.

I really do feel for you, Thompson1, and think that legal advice would certainly be the best direction.

I understand that any employee who has told you of a pregnancy is able to get a certificate of pregnancy from the GP. This  confirms the due date, and is required so that maternity leave issues can be sorted out. Ask the girl to provide you with this certificate, as is your right as employer, and you will be able to assess if she was pregnant at the time of the "offence".

I personally feel that it seems unfair that someone who claims mental ill health like depression, or hormones, seems to be absolved of all responsibilities. I have suffered from depression in the past but i never abused anyone. I have also been the victim of a workplace bully who got away with it because of claiming mental illness. It wasnt any the less harmful to me, whether she did it out of illness or malice, but she gets to keep her job and im going to have to leave to escape her.

hi
I work in retail management in that situation
you can't go on hearsay, if she thinks shes
pregnant well you have to take her word for
it. you can't, listen to other members of staff.
don,t be too hasty getting rid, it might backfire
on you. Find out the proper route and follow it
to the letter if you want her gone.
I don't think it will matter if the offence was comitted
before she found out she was pregnant. 
Good luck
Donna

Boy I may be unpopular for saying this but I think this is a strange place to discuss someone's employment. To the point I hope they don't visit the board and know who you are or the company  could find themselves on the wrong side of a tribunal table.

Nobody can use hearsay as valuable information.

When you use the terminology aggressive what do you mean??  

If the person isn't normally very much troublesome change in behaviour especially erratic behaviour during the first 12 weeks of pregnancy is very very normal and could be used as an excuse. If she is pregnant it is wise to be very very careful.

How much managerial experience do you have and is there a qualified HR person involved in this? if you don't mind me asking. Normal discipline procedures don't normally start off taking someone in and telling them you are taken disciplinary action.

What would I Do.. ?? well I am the type of person who really believes in retention over sacking. Me I would try and resolve the issue , training, counselling etc.

I always try to remember people have bills to pay :-)  don't for once think that makes me a softy , quite the opposite.

If your employee has received a terms and conditions of employment, has been apprised of the sickness, absence, disciplinary, grievance and harrassment procedures (that all employers should have) which have been signed for then your employee presumably is fully aware of what does and does not consist of a disciplinary matter.

Presumably in her induction she was informed that she MUST tell the company as soon as possible if she has any changes in her circumstances healthwise (which would include pregnancy) so that a proper risk assessment can be carried out (for nursing and expectant mothers) so that she is protected. 

If she failed to inform you of this then she is also in breach of the HASAW act.

Companies will only do this once they have received written confirmation that the employee is pregnant because of course they need this to factor in maternity pay etc etc etc

If your employee was suffering from depression, has this been clinically diagnosed?

It is important not to merge two or more differing procedures/issues together and quite often, especially in small companies, failures to have the correct procedures in place AND to communicate them leads to failure somewhere down the disciplinary route.

As for sexual discrimination etc if you are dismissing an employee on the grounds of gross misconduct, this should not enter into the equation and if she want to go down the DDA route, again she needs to have been medically assessed and diagnosed and informed the employer.

Employees and employers need to understand they have not only rights but responsibilities, too often either or both fail to meet their legal obligations, quite often because either or both are ill informed.