First question

do you use woodshaving with small animals - hamsters / rabbits etc - obviously this is to people who have them

I use dust extracted wood shavings for my rats, I buy the big 25kg bales as I have 3 cages so use quite alot! But I have in the past used wood pellets and Biocatolat(sp?) but it got a bit expensive!
I know alot of people with small animals won't use shavings but personally have never found a problem with them, excapt of course the mess all over the carpet when the rats decide to dig in it :D

Thanks yes the stuff i use has the dust extracted i have 2 hamsters and got a rabbit today and ive had hamsters and a rabbit in the past

Ok so this is really a rant about a nearly full american forum about hamsters, but has sections for other animals too, now firstly i am open to other peoples opinions and obviously different animals have different reactions to things as different humans do ..

But on there they go on and on and on and on about how you should never use woodshavings as they are bad to ALL hamsters etc, you should only use carefresh accoriding to them, which i did try but its really expensive compared to wood shavings, and now ive seen a thread on there saying rabbits should NEVER live outside, well my rabbit does, his hutch is covered with a blanket and he has lots of warm snuggly bedding

I am just wondering really why their opinions seem to differ so much to over here?

Its not just that that annoys me so many of them have animals on there have pets, dogs included and when they think there is something seriously wrong they go on about how they dont have time to go to the vets or they cant afford it, seems a contradiction given they are so concerned about woodshavings lol

Its not all bad though they do have some good advice which is why i still use it but i really dont understand why their views seem to be so different to ours, they even dislike most of the hamster cages you can get over here, Rotastak etc as they say circular shapes confuse hamsters? i guess they may well do but rotastak have never bothered the 5 hamsters i have had and 2 gerbils that lived in them

I think in America they tend to make shavings from a certain type of wood, Cedar if  remember rightly, which can be very dangerous to small animals, I think this is why they are very anti-wood shavings of any type! Personally I would avoid the scented types(PAH used to, not sure if they still do, sell them) and anything that is coloured and also the cotton wool type bedding that is marketed for hamsters, tissue paper is much better, I use shredded paper and tissue for my rats and they make the most amazing nests for themselves!

Personally I don't have a problem with, say, a rabbit living outside, my own rabbit did for 6 years but if I did have more in the future I would feel much better if I had 2 together. Rabbits are highly social animals and as long as you take the right steps to prevent litters then the bunnies will love living outside, I'm not saying your rabbit is unhappy or anything but personally I would keep 2 together, then they can snuggle into each other during the night, cute or what :D My Thumper had a run with attached hutch that he had access to all year but choose to sit out in most weathers, he just loved being outside, wouldn't have made a good house rabbit at all, he loved chewing too much, would have drove my mam mad :D :D

Also bear in mind, in America they have lots of urban Coyotes etc and dogs that live outside, maybe thats why they are very over protective of outside rabbits, but we do have foxes in this country!

I've known loads of gerbils, hamsters and mice live in Rotastaks, I think they are great for those smaller animals(not rats as I think they would be a bit too big for the tubes!), they simulate a natural burrow and the animals seem to enjoy going for different 'rooms' to their bedroom, food area, toilet etc, Good mental stimulation IMO :)

ah right yes that sheds some more light on it! i only got my rabbit today, he is a birthday present from my OH, which of course i wanted he didnt just buy him so its his first night outside, i plan to let him come inside and play though - i think asking for a second rabbit at the moment might be pushing him too far (OH that is) I will be phoning the vets in the morning to get him a proper health check and find out about neutering etc

Did you get your rabbit vaccinated?

My rabbit died in 1996 and it was only in the last 5 years or so that I found out about vaccines for rabbits, and now I think if I did have rabbits again I would, having picked up alot of rabbits with Mixy I would hate to think of my pets suffering like that, and we do get wild rabbits in our garden....last year it was only the front but this year they are creeping into the back now :D And I think they also vaccinate against a blood clotting disorder which can kill, I think it would be a sensible thing to do, ask your vet, I know our vets recommend rabbits be vaccinated :)

Have a look here http://www.houserabbit.co.uk/rwf/articles/vhd.htm

Hi
Yes I have noticed this shaving stuff in the US. As mentioned cedar shavings are strong, but what we have here is mainly pine, but many americans tend to go on about ALL shavings being bad, which really is rubbish. :) I have been breeding, showing and judging most small animnals (guinea pigs, hamsters, rabbits, mice, rats, gerbils, voles, chinchillas, jirds -you name it, I've done it -well not judged them all, only hamsters, rats, mice, gerbils and g.pigs) for 30 years, have kept literally thousands upon thousands of these animals, and I have used shavings during ALL of that time, with never even a hint of a problem -not even in animals kept in glass or plastic tanks with just a wire or mesh top. So it certainly isn't anything to worry about. :)

It's OK to use wood shavings for the hamsters, rabbits, guinea pigs etc :) 

Why on earth do they think Rotastak makes hamsters confused?

Didn't notice the Rotastak thread before. Personally I have always been of the opinion that they should be banned as dangerous, or at the very least clearly marked as ONLY for use with DWARF hamsters or mice, NOT Syrian hamsters or anything else, AND it needs to be stated that the tubes are NOT safe from cats, they can be taken apart if you have a cat.

Sadly MOST hamster cages these days are made for one reason only: to make money out of kids. 90% of all are totally unsuitable and many are downright dangeorus AND cruel........

We had three hamsters (not dwarf) when the children were small in Rotastack cages. Never had a problem, but then I never told them that they might have one :D :D  :)

Daisy

We've found the best stuff to use for small animals (particularly rats) is the woodbased cat litter - they can chew it, it absorbs their urine (so cutting down on smell) and it's eco friendly :)

As for bedding - when we have shredded all our confidential paperwork in the shredder we pop that into the rats cage, Ratigan loves it now that he is getting on a bit (not long left belss him - last one of three) as he can make little tunnels in the paper and sleep the day away in warmth.

I have used them for hamsters before, but I NEVER use them for my rats and mice - the things people say about softwood shavings (pine and cedar espesh) being bad is true.  They contain phenols and other nasties that damage the lining of the lungs, leading to respiratory problems - not an easy thing to sort out.  As an example; the last time I used softwood shavings, I used it for my first two female rats.  I only used one bag.  Both developed severe respiratory problems, which they promptly passed on to their offspring - I never managed to cure the mothers or the offspring, the problem stuck with them until they died; a few did die of old age, but most went downhill from the infection.  Since then the closest I've come to woodshavings is kiln dried pine - Dri Bird, I think it was - which I used for a few weeks for my current male rats, thinking it was safe.  These boys were perfectly healthy before, but in a couple of weeks developed the familiar symptoms - they now have chronic lung infections, and are about to go in for a third attempt at sorting it out.

I now use Yesterday's News cat litter (paper based, recycled) for my rats and degus, and newspaper (Daily Mail, the ink doesn't run) for my mice.

In the US, people are often advised to use Aspen woodshavings - it's like their version of pine, fast growing and readily available, but perfectly safe.  Fruit tree wood is safe too, but getting hold of fruit tree woodshavings is kind of hard!!

>I have used them for hamsters before, but I NEVER use them for my rats and mice - the things people say about >softwood shavings (pine and cedar espesh) being bad is true.  They contain phenols and other nasties that >damage the lining of the lungs, leading to respiratory problems - not an easy thing to sort out.  As an example; >the last time I used softwood shavings, I used it for my first two female rats.  I only used one bag.  Both >developed severe respiratory problems, which they promptly passed on to their offspring - I never managed to >cure the mothers or the offspring, the problem stuck with them until they died; a few did die of old age, but >most went downhill from the infection.

Sorry Nikita but that is incorrect. Pine shavings are totally safe and like I said I have used them for not a few but several thousand small animals over 30 years -including hundreds of rats and many more mice. What you will have seen in your rats would have been a mycoplasma infection -virtually all fancy rats carry it and develop it sooner or later- it is a huge problem. You said it yourself when you said your rats passed the problem on to their kittens -if it was a problem from breathing in fumes there would be no way on earth that could be passed on. (Compare if your dad worked in coal mines and got bad lungs, you wouldn't be affected by it yourself, would you. :) )

No, but a more comparable infection IMO would be flu - myco is easily passed on in aerosol form, so the chances of the mother rats passing it to their offspring - as I still am sure happened - was very high.

I am aware that rats carry mycolplasma, it's a typical bit of fauna found in them, yes.  The clincher is the damage caused by the nasties in the woodshavings, which weaken the lungs and allow the mycoplasma to get a real foothold and cause an infection.  I didn't mean to imply that they were getting an infection from the woodshavings - bad wording on my part, I guess - but that the shavings are a trigger.

I stand by what I said, I do not believe pine shavings are safe - granted, there may have been issues with weaker stock with one of the omther rats, being a pet store animal from a dodgy breeder, but I still firmly believe that they would have been healthy had I not used that bag of woodshavings, or the Dri Bird I used for the perfectly healthy boys (good breeder for them) that are now fighting chronic problems.  I will say that they cause less problems, from what I've seen, in mice; rats seem to be far more prone to trouble, as you say.  But I still argue that they are not totally safe, and that's not something I'm about to change my mind on!

Furthermore, I'll post a link to some good articles on the subject:

http://www.ratfanclub.org/helpinfo.html

There's a couple good pieces there about pine and cedar.

With all due respect, I am not really interested in american info.......... I still reckon they are simply hysterical when it comes to shavings issues. A friend of mine IN the US actually did a test, when I was there, as she was interested. She put ALL her animals on american pine shavings. Rats, hamsters, mice, cavies, even the birds! Absolutely nothing happened.

How do you explain that I (and many others) had several hundred rats on pine shavings for many years -and in fact my ex (whom I am SURE you will know if you are in rats) still do without problems? Since 1977?
Here's the relevant ENGLISH info: http://www.nfrs.org/respdisease.html AND on this page which is the NFRS information leaflet: http://www.petrat.info/ you find the wording:

"Wood shavings are the most commonly available litter sold to line the bottom of small animal cages. Many people feel that wood shavings are not an ideal litter for rats, because they give off essential oils and can be very dusty. However good quality wood shavings (as opposed to sawdust) can provide an excellent bedding for rats. Despite common misconceptions, there is no evidence that the most common forms of wood shavings (usually pine or spruce in the UK -- a white or pale yellow wood) cause any damage to rat health: studies have failed to find any connection between respiratory ailments and use of ordinary shavings. In fact, the rats kept on shavings in one study actually lived longer than those not exposed to moderate amounts of aromatic oils!"

Now it's up to you if you believe the actual official society or not. :)

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one Goldmali!!  I still don't believe softwood shavings are completely safe, and I'm still going to avoid them.

It may be that the particular brand I used was a particular type with particular nasties in it that caused the problems, and others are less dodgy - the brand I used was a less common one - but nonetheless, I'm not going to start using shavings again.  Fair dos to your friend for her experiment, I won't deny there's a need for more studies in this area, but it was hardly a proper scientific study - there would have been many variables such as breeding stock and environment and so on which may have affected the outcome.  I'm not saying it did, I'm just saying it's a possibility - if an official study comes out with all the variables taken out other than the substrate used - and a number of types of wood and other substrates are compared - I might think again.  You did mention that studies have been done - do you have a link to any of them?

and to the OP - sorry for hijacking your post a bit there!!

i've not has hamsters etc for a while, but i used to use shavings for them-i did with all my hamsters, and i had loads!

Always got our wood shavings and sawdust (very coarse) straight from the sawmill ;) had hamsters, guinea pigs and rabbits for many years (they died of old age ;) ) and never had a problem.  Personally I preferred the wood shavings as they were easier to clean out, but we couldn't always get them, so often it was sawdust base with wood shavings over the top and then sweet meadow hay for the nest boxes - food and warmth :)  It's so easy today when you can buy large bales of woodshavings.

I often picked up shavings from the floor of the garage when hubby had been doing some woodworking :D

Daisy

Irrespective of whether woodshavings are dangerous to small animals (and i dont use them for the rats cos i hate the fact that they get EVERYWHERE), has anyone thought about using a NONE loose/spreadable bedding??

I now use vetbed for the bottom of the cage, and have a litter pan with wilkinsons wooden pellet cat litter in it (which they use, b eing clever rats), and paper fromteh paper shredder for them to nest in (being boys they throw it around and mess with it and then chuck it on the floor but they have fun doing so).

I am not sold on the idea that the pine or whatever oils are very damaging, but my biggest concern is that even the supposedly 'dust free' stuff still contains a large proportion of what id call 'dust' which i wouldnt want to be breathing where i the size of a rat or a hamster or a rabbit.

Use vet bed, its the future!!!

Em

never thought of that, what a novel idea!  Would work for my rats, being lazy lads they don't chew anything that isn't edible :D the degus would have it in seconds tho... I might just try that out!

We use Pine Shavings (cedar is hard on their respitory system) for our hamsters (we now have 3), and for the rabbit (she lives in a cage in my daughters room -- kinda a mean lil one very guarded over her cage or when u get in her face) we have a litter box in their with Yesterdays News litter mixed with some shavings, and she uses newspaper for bedding. Our ferrets have a litter box (yesterdaysnews litter) and a hammock I made out of a pillow case with blankets...

I too find the shaving much cheaper then alot of the other critter bedding that you can buy, we also put in toilet paper rolls with some tissue on it and the hamsters use that as well for bedding.

Iam alergic to the shavings and the hamsters lol :D

Try vetbed... you only need two bits for each cage so you can wash one and use one, nothing to be allergic too!

Em