Hello all

Everybody says they are good for dogs/puppies.  So I took my puppy along as soon she had her vaccinations.  She was just over 11 weeks and is now 15 weeks old.  She is a very boisterous breed (Springer Spaniel), I know, but at the training class she is just headless.  I'm afraid she learns all the bad things there, like ignoring me, when I call her name, pulling at the lead, because she constantly tries to get to other puppies/people, chewing the lead (because she get's fed up with the lead holding her back all the time), which she never does when out for a walk, jumping up is another bad thing she is doing there a lot.  She is very exhausted after the hour and she is panting away.    Her tail is wagging  a lot though, she seems to enjoy it.  I really would love to go to the training classes, but I'm afraid there is more damage done then good.  Nothing against the Kennel Club, but that's the only training classes we have and I live in a small town in the Highlands (so quite remote).  I have no other choice but that one. 
Should I wait a few months till she calmed down a bit?
Onetwothree gave me recently the tip to take the clicker with me and click/treat for every little attention she gives me on her own accord.  I tried that last night, but the fact is, that I'm supposed to do things like sit, sit/stay, down, heel and they expect me to call her to get her attention.  It just seems so unrealistic and difficult.

Thanks to 'listening' to my mourn and groan :)

Bagpipe

She's not learning to ignore you, she just hasn't learnt yet to pay attention to you in ALL situations. :) You should persevere, if you don't you will of course end up with a dog that only pays attention to you in certain wellknown situations, and you may well end up in similar ones (lots of people and dogs around) at various points during your dog's life. She needs to learn to behave even when there are distractions -it's no good having a dog that will only behave until something more interesting comes along.  Most pups take a few weeks to settle at training class, then usually they start to understand what is expected of them and you see a big change. All my dogs are trained to quite a high standard (some of them enough to compete in lower obedience casses) but even I hate those first few weeks in class with a new pup, before the penny has dropped. It IS very hard work. :)

You need to make yourself more interesting than other dogs, by the use of some REALLY nice treats for instance (forget dog treats, you need liver or hot dogs or cheese or similar).

You can do it! Don't give up!

Hello

I always use homemade treats like tuna bread and liver bread or some smoked cheese.  She is not all that keen in treats when she is highly distracted.  So I also use a squeaky toy to get her attention or I took a brand new toy with me, she never saw before.  But all works only for a little time, it is very difficult though.   Other puppies, even younger ones seem to be so much more settled and better trained.   
But I do feel encouraged by what you say.  It makes utter sense too and I would be sad to give up the training classes.

Bagpipe

I'd keep going if I were you, when I first went with our GR she was awful, wouldn't pay attention, just wanted to play with the other dogs etc etc.  After a few weeks she began to settle down and improve and last time we went she was easily the best there.  She went from being a bit of an embarassment to being great, she even does the best off-lead recall of all the dogs :D

Steve

I agree with Goldmali - you really should keep going.

Just for one minute, forget about the training part of this and think about the socialisation:  Your dog first has a journey to the training class to experience, then she gets to meet all the other dogs at the class (excellent socialisation), she meets the trainer and the other handlers, she experiences a big hall and a wooden floor, she experiences lots of dogs on lead in a small space...and so on.  There are so many positive socialisation experiences happening in one training night that it's impossible to list them all.  And your pup at 15 wks is still within the important socialisation time when she will remember all these good experiences forever.

Moving on to the training - it's quite normal for her to be like this.  My breed is just as active as a springer, and believe me I know how hard it is to deal with that.  I used to come away from training classes feeling just as tired as the dog, because of having to just be with the dog for an hour in that environment - it was really draining, like looking after a toddler when you go out somewhere.  But you have to get over that and see all the benefits of the class.

Your puppy is still really young, a baby at 15 wks.  She doesn't have a very long concentration span yet, which is part of the problem.  She also doesn't know how to "learn" yet.  Dogs get better at learning the more they do of it.  And they get better at working in a distracting place the more they do of it.  So the way to get through this is to keep going and come out the other side.  Otherwise you will end up with an adult dog which will ALWAYS be like this in a distracting environment, which isn't what you want, is it?

When I said to click and treat her for attention, I didn't mean during the other exercises - I meant when the instructor is showing you something, or when it is someone else's go to do something.  When you are standing around watching, or sitting and watching.

I'm not sure what you mean by her learning to ignore you when you call her name?  Do you mean they make you say her name before each exercise?  Like "Puppy, Sit", "Puppy Down", that kind of thing?  Or do you mean actually calling her to you across the room?

Bagpipe, before you decide that your puppy is learning the wrong things, you have to think about the rewards.  You say she is learning to pull on the lead - she is only learning to pull on the lead if she pulls AND IT WORKS by her getting closer to something she wants.  It is up to you to stop that happening.  If she pulls towards another dog, you step backwards away from the dog and don't let her get to it.  If she pulls to a person, don't let her pull you to the person.  You are in control of if she gets rewarded or not for pulling.  It doesn't matter if she pulls and doesn't get anywhere because you stand still - then she can pull all she likes - eventually she will give up because this NEVER works.

The chewing on the lead is a puppy thing which she will grow out of.  If you want her to stop pulling on the lead, you can buy a chain (metal) clip lead, which clips onto her normal collar (ie - NOT a choke chain - just a normal lead which is metal).  Dogs don't like to chew metal things.

When she tries to jump up, again you have to make sure she is not rewarded.  If she jumps up at someone there, don't let them say hello to her - gently pull her back from the person and explain to the person that you don't want her to learn to jump up.  Tell them they can only stroke her if all 4 paws are on the ground.  Another tip is to be ready to hold her by the collar when she says hello, and to keep her down by holding the collar.  The thing is - you are going to be meeting people with your dog all your life, not just at training classes.  This habit of jumping up is not going to go away by itself if you stop going to classes - she will keep jumping up at strangers.  The way to deal with it is to use the training classes as an opportunity to train.

I would keep going especially for the socialisation.

Have you tried going back to basics and trying some attention building exercises - i.e getting your puppy to focus on you.  You need to teach your puppy that YOU are more exciting that what is going on around her.  If that means calling a a high pitched voice then do so, if it means getting silly do it, if your puppy is off the lead and not responding to you you must teach her that the exciting thing she is doing becomes unavailable (temporarily), lure her away from the distraction, hold her collar for a few seconds, reward and let her go back to what she was doing.  It is vital that you teach her that coming to you = a reward and not the end of game.
I dont know much about clicker training but puppies respond very well to small titbits of food as a reward.  I dont use clickers in my class and I have a very high success rate. 

As for jumping up as onetwothree says ignore her, dont reward her for jumping up even telling her to stop is giving her attention.  Ignore the jumping (i know it is hard) and only reward as soon as all four feet are on the floor.  I wouldnt restrain her by holding her collar when greeting people, teach her to greet people in a sit by asking her to sit and only when she is sat then people can approach her, if she goes to jump up ask the people to step back, then you ask her to sit and only then does she get a reward or fuss from people.  She will soon realise she wont get any attention if she jumps up.  I am sorry if this doesnt make sense but am typing really fast and may have missed things.  PM me if you want further tips or if this isnt clear.

PS Getting a metal lead is a FAB suggestion to stop them chewing - works wonders :-)

"If you want her to stop pulling on the lead"

I made a typo, I just realised - this is meant to say: "If you want her to stop CHEWING on the lead"!

Bagpipe - how many people in the class?

Hello Lillith

There are about (it varies) eight puppies/dogs there.  But the hall is quartered off and so there are more dogs around.  Although she doesn't bother with them, there are plenty of distractions closer to her :)

Bagpipe

Hi 123 I thought you had said chewing - i knew what you meant anyway...lol  Shows i didnt read your post correctly but knew where you were coming from :-)

Hello Onetwothree

I know I do it for socialisation and I see the good and important point of that!  I really feel very encouraged by all the answers that I'm very happy to continue going there.  I was somewhat afraid it does more damage (only as far as obedience is concerned!) then anything else and wanted to ask on this excellent helpful forum about other peoples experience.
I only used the clicker yesterday when, as you said, I'm sitting and just watching/waiting (while other people/doggies have their turn) and she looked round to me, I used the click/treat.  She was also reasonably hungery, because I changed her feeding pattern to three times a day (instead of four times and she wasn't fed since 3 pm at the class is at 7.30 pm).  I also always sit at the edge with her (+my husband) and not in the middle of the other dogs.  At least there is only one direction to pull.:)
By 'learning to ignore me' I mean, that when I have to do , say a sit exercise, then I will stand in the hall, other puppies/owners as well two-three meters away, and in order to say 'sit' I have to have her attention first, because she is at the other end of the lead and tries to get to somewhere  else.   So I say 'name, name, name...'.  No reaction.  So I of course pull the lead and so on.  Well please don't get me wrong, there are a few precious moments where I have her attention, but overall I seem to lose.  And in the end my puppy is the only one which pants away and is exhausted.  Other ones are not like that.  So I was wondering.  But as I said, I feel strongly encouraged by all the posts and I'm glad about this.  Looking forward to next Tuesday.
The really good thing she is doing is the recall.  I call her across some good distance and although she is distracted, she listens and runs with great speed to me.  :) :)  Even quite funny, when other people practise the racall with their dogs, then they sometimes don't get the message, but my puppy pulls to the person like mad...she would come alright instead. :)

Thanks

Bagpipe

>So I say 'name, name, name...'.  No reaction. 

Try other ways of getting her attention, use the name ONLY for recalls, otherwise she will quickly learn that her name is nothing important and can be ignored,and she will then ignore it when called during a walk as well. :)

Goldmali is correct.  Try calling her name one and add a cue such as come!  If she doesnt come go and show her what you mean.  I know it is hard but dogs and puppies are not psychic - you need to teach them what is expected of them.  Persevere and it will pay off.  If you are struggling and dont feel you are getting anywhere in class, ask your trainer for help or ask them to explain why the training is not working - they are there to help you and should answer your queries.  Nobody will think any less of you in class if you ask.  Good Luck with your training.  Let us know how you get on. :-)

Ok, well Bagpipe, this is what I would do with your pup.

I would find some really tasty treats that she likes and I would go to training with her hungry, as you say.

The treats might have to be pretty disgusting and smelly, like cut up smoked fish or something, by the way.

I would hold the treat on her nose and move my hand towards her tail, without saying a word and without letting her eat the treat (although she might try to lick it).  When she sits, I would click and give her the treat.  I would do this a lot until she sits as soon as I move to put the treat over her nose.

At that stage, I would say "Sit" and then do exactly the same thing, holding the food on her nose, so I am associating the word "Sit" with her bum going backwards, then click and treat.  Then I would stop holding the food there and say Sit and wait for her to sit herself, click and treat.

I agree with Goldmali and Lisa - you are just teaching her to ignore you if you say her name over and over again.  You should only give any command/cue when you know you can make sure it is carried out. 

People try to communicate with dogs verbally far too much - people go "jabber jabber jabber jabber sit jabber jabber" - how is the dog supposed to pick out commands in all that jabbering?  When training, try not to talk meaninglessly to your dog - just give her the commands and some praise if she gets it right.  Don't speak to her if she is not listening to you.

By the way - also you should practise lots at home!

I don't know about my pup but I love going to class!!

Bit of socialisation for me too!!!

LOL Sarahlolly, isn't that the truth -dog training night is my night out with my mates!! :D :D

oooo me too, we get tea and biscuits down at my training class

>oooo me too, we get tea and biscuits down at my training class

When I raised the subject of puppy classes with my vet his reaction was to ask me whether I was feeling deprived of tea and biscuits! :)

Yeah, Wednesday nights are the highlight of my week, a night out with one of my dogs just the two of us and other doggy people all round! :-)

I think I'll end up only ever talking to doggy people!!

Everyone else just get BORED!!

BTW before I went training with my pup I was worried he was bonding only with my other dog but as we have our own nights out now he's well and truly bonded with me (its just reminded me as I heard the little tip tap of paws coming up the stairs as I was sat on the loo!)

Sarah x

I enjoyed going to training classes, it was a night out away from kids!!
But also I found it was easier to think that I was being trained to train my dog whilst I was there, I didn't go to train my dog if you get what I mean, everything I learnt, I took away with me and practised at home on walks, etc.

I think you should persevere.

Hi Bagpipe! :) I think I know you from another forum and I have the same breed of dog as you (Welsh Springer)... I had exactly the same experience as you at training classes when my dog was very young - sounds quite normal behaviour from your puppy! They are so distracted and excitable when young - they can't help it! I'm sure they really are trying their best! In my case I left the class but that was because the trainer was not good - she picked on me and my pup and I ended up very worried and with no confidence at all. She also was quite harsh, shaking my puppy around and shouting - so I left to train at home and with a (different) one-to-one trainer and socialised with other dog walkers. If the class had been OK I would have stayed though so I think you are doing the right thing in keeping going. I think what the others have said is true - it's the practice you do in between the classes that counts and I wouldn't expect too much of your puppy because she is very young yet. My girl has slowly become less distracted as she's got older - but it's a long slow process and you have to try not to worry!

You are getting some GREAT advice here.  Your decision to continue your pup in training is to be commended.  I have one question though.  Do you do your homework with your dog?  IOW, do you work with her at home on things you have learned in class?  This is very important and hopefully you know that.  You can't expect to train a dog working with them for one hour a week.

Hello hope

Oh, yes, I do lots of homework!!! 

Bagpipe

Sorry, I meant 'Hello probe', not ' Hello hope' !!!

Thanks to all!

Yes, I got GREAT advice from you all today and I try the smoked haddock next Tuesday.  BTW cooked or uncooked????
I do enjoy myself going to the class with tea and all afterwards and I meet other people with doggies too.  So I just will not worry anymore about her behaviour there and hope for the best :)

Bagpipe

I don't know if it is cooked or not cooked - I get it in Sainsburys or in Tescos or in any supermarket really!  It often has black pepper on it - and humans can eat it straight from the packet with no cooking..

I know what you mean, it's cooked, vacuum packed and in the chilled section usually stocked alongside chilled smoked salmon and prawns etc.

Hello Onetwthree

You surely mean mackarel then.  So I by the mackarel (sorry for wrong spelling!!!!).

Bagpipe

>>I do lots of homework!!!

Excellent.  Things will come together for you, I'm sure.  Just be patient.  Ever potty train a kid or a teenager about curfew?  Patience and perseverance.  :-)

I love taking my dog to training classes and I know my dog really enjoys it too.  I haven't been for a few weeks but going again this week and really looking forward to it.  the only thing is I sometimes think I am only there to make other people laugh.  My dog can embarrass me at times.

Woohoo!!

Went to class last night and Harry was fantastic - he was so good that we've been promoted to the next class!!

It looks so funny, my little terrier and all these collies!!! LOL

Sarah x

I enjoyed going to training class with my first dog that i got 2 more dogs so that i could go more often, and now help out occasionally with the puppy class. SPringers may seem all over the place, but can become surprisingly switched on after a short time. My rescue springer barely even looked at me the first week we went, it was awful. By the 3rd week with the help of frankfurter sausages he doesn't take his eyes off me! And they are so intelligent!

I took franfurter for my last class - just to make sure that I got things spot on!  My dog is very easily distracted and quite often because of my lack of experience with training she has been an embarrassment at classes.  However with the help of folks at class and on line here, I have more confidence that my dog will be well trained - by me!  One trainer even offered to have my dog if I was getting rid of her!!!  That shows how negative I must have been - my dog must have picked up on that too.   There were long sessions - especially as we had a lot of indoor classes due to the weather when we didn't seem to do much at all - waiting for the trainer to go all round the class - doubled up for lack of space.  However when I see my dog with other dogs now I know that I did the best thing.  I saw the difference as time went on.  That socialisation was SO important. And she was so good with the little children along the lane. They commanded her to sit!  And instead of jumping she soon found that lying down and keeping very still had them patting her all over.  It was a picture to see - I was so proud of her.  If anyone wants two little 6 year old girls to sort their dog out just let me know!
But we didn't have any tea and biscuits!!!!!  Lucky lot some of you.  Classes were definitely worth it.

Hi Bagpipe I think if you have the feeling she is learning all the bad things then follow your gut instinct and leave it at least for now. I went to socialisation with my lab starting at around 12 weeks but I got the impression she was trying to get my mind suggestiing I might be going for 18 months to 2 years.
in the end I went until he was around 20 weeks but I found he was taking more notice of me doing just a little thing once a day than anything he was learning at class, I also felt it was making him ignore me more than hewas doing anything else. In the end someone put me in touch with a a gundog trainer nearby, he said just take it easy untill 6 months and dont try to much with him so I did. at about 8 montths he gave me 3 simple lessons aimed at recall and I have only seen him once for free since then, at about 11 months to sharpen his recall.
I still see a couple of people from the old class and thir odgs are certainly no better than mine and a couple of them simply do nothing at all they are told and they went till the dogs were around 18 months and 20 months. It might be a good idea for you if you find someone who has springers and ask them to give a few lessons, especialy if they are useing them for shooting work. Als, I dont think classes are for socialising first,sure talking to dog people is noce but classes are very serious as far as I am concerned, my dog has ten years maybe 14 with me and I wanted them to be free years for him without the lead all the time and no trouble for me to live with. Chez_swa with all due respect is ha

Hi Bagpipe I think if you have the feeling she is learning all the bad things then follow your gut instinct and leave it at least for now. I went to socialisation with my lab starting at around 12 weeks but I got the impression she was trying to get my mind suggestiing I might be going for 18 months to 2 years.
in the end I went until he was around 20 weeks but I found he was taking more notice of me doing just a little thing once a day than anything he was learning at class, I also felt it was making him ignore me more than hewas doing anything else. In the end someone put me in touch with a a gundog trainer nearby, he said just take it easy untill 6 months and dont try to much with him so I did. at about 8 montths he gave me 3 simple lessons aimed at recall and I have only seen him once for free since then, at about 11 months to sharpen his recall.
I still see a couple of people from the old class and thir odgs are certainly no better than mine and a couple of them simply do nothing at all they are told and they went till the dogs were around 18 months and 20 months. It might be a good idea for you if you find someone who has springers and ask them to give a few lessons, especialy if they are useing them for shooting work. Als, I dont think classes are for socialising first,sure talking to dog people is noce but classes are very serious as far as I am concerned, my dog has ten years maybe 14 with me and I wanted them to be free years for him without the lead all the time and no trouble for me to live with. Chez_swa with all due respect is having more problems then I ever had in his post Pull....Pull....Pull and he is going to training often, surely chez your trainer should have solved that for you that is what you go for really ok thats my opinion bagpipe and chez, but training is for the futore liveing and if it starts bad it will go non being bad.

Sorry lolol - I have to disagree!

Training is serious for me (even though it is social too) - I work really hard and my dog trainer is fantastic!  Although its not really dog training but dog owner training!!  I learn what to do and then go home and practice.  You can only learn a handful of new things each week I agree but at 6 months I'm happy for my dog to be learning at that rate.

Training is of course backed up by reading and talking to people but for the couple of pound it costs for me to go training once a week it certainly isn't doing any harm.

I would suggest if you are unhappy with your dog training to find another class.

Sarah x

Hmm. LOLOL:

It sounds like the trainer you contacted who told you to wait till 6 months was very "old school".  Of course, in types of training which don't use rewards like food and toys, training was traditionally left until 6 months or later - because young puppies can't take harsh methods.

If 3 lessons on recall have set you up for life with a good recall, I'd be worried about what methods this person was using.  In my part of the country there is someone using an e collar to train recalls on young dogs who have not been trained using reward based methods consistently first.  I would be very doubtful and sceptical if you could obtain a good recall in 3 sessions without such a device to be honest and your mentioning that set alarm bells ringing for me, although I acknowledge I may have jumped to the wrong conclusion.

By avoiding a training class you are just making all those distractions even more tempting for your dog.  If you now walked into a training class, I doubt very much whether your lab would stay focussed on you, because he is not used to working with other dogs in close proximity, inside.  The best way to achieve this, like anything else, is to practise it.  And what better way to practise working in close proximity to other dogs than in a training class?

Lastly, Chez has a GSP.  GSPs are very different to labs.  I have seen endless pet owners walking around streets with labs walking nicely to heel, or at least not pulling on the lead.  They do not look like the type of owner who has spent a long time obsessively trying to get their dog to heel.  On the other hand, I have seen very very few HPRs walked with the same ease I have seen labs walked with, and the few I have seen have belonged to very experienced owners (or were very tired after a long run).  They are very different breeds.  HPRs are bred to be out in front of their owner, hunting.  Like spaniels they are very very challenging to train to walk at heel. 

Please do not be so judgemental about others and what they have and have not achieved.  You have one lab and obviously know very little about other breeds.

I agree that is necessary to train against the distraction of other dogs.

BUT at no time will I need my pet dog go into a village hall full of dogs.  So I didn't take her to that kind of training.  I went to a training class held outdoors, in fields, because that's where I need the obedience and that's like our real life.  I later took her on a clicker training course, just for my own interest, which was four dogs in a large classroom and she coped fine.

Maybe Bagpipe's dog is overly stressed by close proximity to other dogs inside and would learn more quickly and effectively in a different environment, yet still with other dogs around.  Horses for courses.

Hello All

Well the thing is, that I ,as far as I know, have only this training class.  I don't live in a city and have no choice.   And I will stick to it after the encouragement I got on here.  To me it makes sense that she has to practise the distractions and the class is certainly a challenge.  But she seems indeed quite stressed, her eyes are all red she is very headless, snappes at me when taking treats of me and so on.  She does that sort of thing only at home when she has her 'mad half an hour' so to speak.   But her tail goes and goes and goes...wagging....

Bagpipe

You want your dog to be SO interested in YOU, that he doesn't even notice any other people or dogs!
Have you got him really charged to the Clicker? When he is, then spend time at home c/t for eye contact, till that is really strong. After a while when he is throwing that behaviour at you add a cue (watch me, or with me) eventually you can c/t for responding to the cue. Using clicker, train him at home to trot up and down without taking any notice of the lead. For recall, only say "Pupsy, come" as he is running towards you anyway and then c/t. Saying his name means nothing to him and you are danger of teaching him that this word you have attached to him called a name, is just something to ignore.
Have a really brilliant tuggy toy, that he is obsessed about, and play really enthusiastically with it, but sparingly. Don't leave it around for him to ignore. Take that to the class, along with the MOST desirable treats, engage his attention with the eye contact, so c/t every few seconds and by playing with the toy - but only stay for a few minutes, spending those few minutes with his total focus on you. Don't let him get to the point where his attention goes onto anything else, just go home before that happens. Alternatively you could pop him back in the car and then do another very short session with him some 10 minutes later. This way you are building up repetition of good behaviour for which he is rewarded.  Then each week you can extend that time he will focus on you at the class till he eventually he will spend the entire class without taking his eyes off you!
Otherwise, like you said, and have observed, the dog becomes stressed and is unable to concentrate on anything. When you go to a puppy class you are going to be surrounded by many dogs with first time owners. Lots of other dogs lunging at your dog must be REALLY stressful to a baby like yours. You cannot socialise a puppy until he is first entirely focussed on you. He isn't learning anything about socialisation as you need to teach him that all social interactions he makes should only be with your permission anyway. And you cannot possibly teach him anything at the class unless he is able to focus 100% of the time on you. Class should be an opportunity for you to see if your week's work with him is successful in a group situation, not an opportunity for you to teach him anything new.
I am not a great fan of puppy classes as I believe that dogs should not be put in a position where they are unable to behave appropriately. Far better to have one puppy in with a small group of trained adult dogs who are totally foccussed on their owners and ignore your baby!
Sorry my views are not in line with other replies you've had, but it's just a different point of view for you to consider.

That is a really good point about adult dogs focused and a pup to learn to pay attention, but what about the socialisation with other puppies. Would it be best to go to another pup class, maybe a vets one and then in a more adult one? Just a thought.:-)

I agree that socialisation with other puppies important. We all know how strange children seem to be when they're 'hot-housed' and don't spend enough time with other children their own age - puppies also need to learn how to respond to dogs of all ages, not just adults.

I have been taking my 6month old GSD training since 11 weeks (Outdoors) When I started he was the youngest there, the rest were all adult apart from a 9 month old one.  Must admit my Kody was really focused on me from day 1, no distractions as the others were so well behaved.  However recently a few more puppies have joined, so we have to make sure they are not together in the class as they muck around like kids Hee Hee.  Splitting them up works wonders.

Hi Sachelsa
just read your post which I found very interesting. I have just left our puppy class because I felt a room full of pups was too much for all of us. There were 15 pups in his class sitting in very close proximaty to each other. By the time everyone had gone through their 'homework' one by one it was nearly time to finish & the pups ended up having to sit quietly for long periods - good training in some ways, maybe. I wish I could find a class like you suggested with adult, relatively trained dogs for him. At 6 months old he loves everyone & everything, our biggest problem at the moment is walking to heel. He isn't too bad on his own but when I walk my two dogs together I lose his attention & he becomes over-excited. I try not to walk them together but sometimes it is unavoidable. I'm thinking about trying the dogmatic headcollar while I work on keeping his attention (with plenty of livercake!). Does anyone think this would be a negative step?

Hi bint,
Have you thought of looking for someone who does ob competition?  They often do pet training classes and usually keep them quite small because they know the difficulties in keeping puppies interested.  Maybe one or two private lessons might help, I know they can be expensive but there's nothing worse than a dog that constantly pulls and unless you can stop it now it's unlikely to get any better and going for walks can become a misery for both dog and handler. I don't think liver cake is going to do the trick if he's walking with the other dogs, it might work for a short time but it won't cure the problem. I would'nt take him with the others at all for the moment, taking them out together will only make it harder to break the habit. What by the way is the dogmatic headcollar? How does it work?

Thanks Kizkel
sorry to sound ignorant but what's does ob stand for?(obedience?). The dogmatic has been talked about a lot on here but I haven't used one yet. I believe it was designed by a rider & is based on the same principle as a horse's headcollar. As far as walking the two dogs together I know this won't help at all. I'm going to have to organise myself better so I can walk them separately all of the time for now. We had a private lesson last week which went ok but the trainer advised using a figure of eight collar which I'm not particulary fond of. I'm going to persevere with multiple very short training session throughout the day & see what happens. 
Regards

Hi again Bagpipe
It has just 'struck a chord' with me on reading that you think your puppy seems quite stressed and red-eyed in the classes, as that's exactly how my Welsh pup seemed when we were attending classes. She is so excitable that it took very little stimulation to send her quite manic, and the puppy class could be quite stimulating with all the dogs in one hall and a lot of activity and noise.
I used to take her outside to 'cool down' for short breaks and I felt that really it would have been enough just to try and get her to stay calm and focus on me for a while, before progressing to try and actually do anything! However, as I say, the trainer was not really sympathetic. I felt we were maybe being asked to 'run before we could walk'. At home she had already mastered 'sit', 'stay', 'wait at the door', 'down' and 'come' but then at the class we were being asked to achieve that with suddenly a very high level of distraction without having done anything in between, if you see what I mean... quite a large jump in expectations.
I did a lot of socialising out and about with my puppy - hanging around on the main street here where lots of different dogs and people pass by (but if where you live is extremely rural you may not have access to a street I suppose). It was also good for trying out commands with different levels of distraction - like asking her to sit while someone walked past.
It's true that it is an artificial situation for puppies to be trained crammed together in a village hall so don't worry if yours doesn't come 'top of the class' - just reward her for little things  (even looking at you) and I bet like my Welshie she will manage a lot better out in the 'real world' and even be better behaved than some of the ones that were good in the class! (Unless there are any birds around of course - but that problem comes later!) :)

I do all my initial training in an enclosed space with any lead at all, otherwise there is a tendency to use the lead to restrain or correct the dog, instead of teaching him how to trot along beside you on cue.
I don't think you should be taking him out on a lead until he can trot along on a loose lead beside you on cue. Then you can put a lead on and teach him to trot alongside you with the lead on. So I think that any kind of collar that is for restraining the dog is never going to actually TEACH him anything at all.

Hello,
After reading your letter I somewhat agree with what you are saying.   I have had several doberman bitches aswell as a GSD and Corgi over the years.
All of them have been taken by me to Dog training as pups.  Now after all the years and experience not only with my own dogs but also having owned a boarding kennels for some years, now realise that the best thing that comes from Dog training Classes, no matter how good they are, is socialisation with other dogs for puppies.
All of my dogs, without exception, seem to have gained very little in the way of sitting and staying etc from these classes but the mixing with other dogs is invaluable and the foundation to their behaviour around them for the rest of their lives.
The Dobie I have at the moment is now 10 months old,  we have been to two sets of dog training, she was hopeless, with the attention span of a nat and to say she is boisterous is an understatement, dog and a half we call her.  These are just my observations, and naturally there are others who sing the praises of Dog training Classes,  so its a personal preference and no one knows our dogs as we do and how they would progress or not at classes.
In my experience, I have always found that age is a great leveller in the dog, and with it and with maturity, a lot of the things that worry us so much when they are small puppies they simply grow out of.
My own dog still pulls vigorously and no matter what I do, and have tried, clickers, treats, spray collars, head collars, she still does it.  But I can see that with every week that passes now that she's 10 months, she is getting to be more of a dog and less of a stupid pup!  She listens to me more now, comes back to me when off lead, never strays far from me, keeping me in sight all the time, sits when I ask her, the staying isnt great, but we cant have it all.  I have always believed that as long as we dont own a truly aggressive dog, (any of us), then all the other problems can be sorted out, but I think that you will find that as your dog grows you will be able to teach it anything that attending a 1 hour dog training session per week can achieve.   Bear with it, mine drove us to distraction, she is still very boisterous, but as I say, the only really good thing to come out of my taking her to a few dog trainings was that I now know how she acts with other dogs and this is something they have to learn at a very early age.
I live in Rural Scotland amidst farmland and other dogs are a rarity apart from when we went to dog training when she was around 12 weeks.  They dont stay young for long, although it seems like it!  I no longer go to dog training as I too found that the classes were doing no more for a boisterous dog like her, than to wind her up as they were large classes and at times quite chaotic and she was easily distracted, in fact I dreaded the classes in the end.  So in a nutshell, Training Classes for people who live rurally i.e. not coming into contact with many other dogs are fine for socialising, apart from this I personally train my own dogs.