I've had enough!!!  My dog is very strong and pulls like a train.  I've tried the turning round to change direction and catch her attention but she then walks like a dream until you turn direction to where she thinks you're going.  So I think, ok I won't go that way I will keep going this way and after a short while (approx 1 minute) she'll start pulling again because she realises we have set a new direction.  I have tried stopping when she pulls and when I stop she stops and as soon as I start to walk she lurches forward taking me with her usually.  So I have tried stopping and telling her to 'back' which she does but this means the sequence is that she pulls, I stop say back, she circles back and as soon as I start walking she starts pulling again.

I have just tried a new tactic which is as she started pulling hard, I turn around and come back through the gate.  I did this twice and the third time came in because I was getting frustrated.  Have I been cruel because she is certainly making me feel it.

At the weekend she destroyed her 3rd Halti, she manages to get her paw through and pull it down enough to get the slack in her mouth. I don't know who made me more cross the dog for destroying it or my OH for letting her off the lead and not taking the halti off first.

Would she be able to destroy a dogmatic headcollar this way?

Are there any other suggestions?

Stretch Armstrong
Herts.

Hi Stretch,

She's a GSP, isn't she?

Firstly, if you want a quick and easy solution, there are other head collars besides the Halti to try.  There is one called the Canny Collar, which works in a different way.  It's almost impossible to explain how it works in words, but suffice to say that where the Halti often rides up into the eye on the side of the dog you walk on, the Canny Collar doesn't do this and is a markedly different design to the other head collars on the market.

There is also the Gentle Leader which I think is really just a variation on the Halti and not different enough.  I have no experience of the Dogmatic.

Secondly, these head collars are not going to teach her to walk to heel and are just a management device.  Maybe that's ok for you?  If you want to train her to walk to heel, I would suggest the click and treat method.  Have the treats in a pocket, and the clicker in hand.  When the dog is in the correct heel position, click and give a treat.  Keep doing this every time she is in the right place.  If she gets in an unacceptable place, stop walking and wait.  When she comes to heel, click and treat before you move off.  The idea is that at the beginning you have to have a high ratio of clicks and treats, but as the dog becomes more fluent at the behaviour, you lower the number of clicks and treats until eventually the dog is having to walk at heel for 10 mins before it gets 1 treat.  (Caution - at first you get through a lot of treats if you actually want to get somewhere, so using a head collar for speed and training with click and treats without the head collar when you've time would be a good idea.)

Thanks.  Yes, she's a GSP alright - lol.

I do want her to walk nicely but I think I just need a head collar for now to make walks pleasurable for a while.  I have permanant ache in 1 arm, and during these tug of wars I end up with pain in 1 knee and 1 ankle. 

thanks for the advice.

We occasionally use the Dogmatic headcollars on our GSPs and have found them to be very good. We used to use the Gentle Leader but they did rub the skin sometimes. I would definitely recommend the Dogmatic.
I have had all the same problems as you are having, and must say that my 2 boys are certainly not angels at walking to heel even now (this is without the headcollars), but I found that training to walk to heel worked better when they were off the lead, as they could not use the lead to lean on. I still use the treats in training.
How old is your girl?

Hi stroppimare

She'll be 2 in Jan.  She is the same in that she is better off lead but I can't trust her not to dance around in front of me because she gets so excited when we're out and ignores treats because getting to the woods is sooo exciting.  We haven't been to our training club for a few weeks but when we have been she knows the drill and is much better but then we are just walking up and down a field.  They are bright and know what's what, more than I do in fact. I know I have a lot of work to do yet but I just can't stand the pulling anymore.

You don't say how long you tried the changing directions for?

With the changing directions you must be patient.  You have to set time aside to train this in the same way as any other method of training to walk nicely ;)  You need to change directions EVERY TIME the dog begins to pull, but also change directions to keep things interesting and unpredictable even when he isn't pulling (2 minutes of changing directions will get any dog's attention, especially if you use an upbeat tone and sound interesting as well ;) and you'll notice he gets really interested in you and his tail comes up as he starts thinking it's fun :)  You carry on this way until the dog stops pulling when you are walking along and revert to changing immediately the dog starts to pull again ;)  This can work within 10 minutes but this will need to be repeated for a number of days/weeks depending on how long your dog has been pulling and how well it is learning what you want.  If your dog has been pulling for 2 years then it won't be cured in a few sessions and you may find that he attempts to pull more often at first, after all its worked for 2 years ;)  You must remember to praise when the dog stops pulling but not so much that the dog gets excited and starts pulling again, liver treats are always appreciated ;)  You'll know when your dog is learning to stay with you as you'll notice him/her watching you as you walk.

Hope this helps

I know I have got a long haul in front of me. Over the last couple of months I have been stopping and waiting for her to return to my side before we continue.  Although she knows that we are not going to move until she gets 'back' we can sometimes be standing for a couple of minutes before she will get back.  We will set off and within a few seconds she can't help herself and she is pulling again and I would stop and go over the same procedure again.  She's the same coming home and going. I don't know what other people with this breed think but I was told once about their subborness. 

Before that I had used the changing direction way but it got to be comical (for others that is).  I would suddenly change direction to catch her attention and it did have some effect but didn't stop the pulling overall.  I would change direction and she would catch up and overtake, so I would change direction again. This could go on and I would end up going in circles.  I really did perservere with that for a long time, months.  We usually go through a park to woods so I thought if she realised that wasn't going to happen I might get somewhere, so one day I spent about an hour and half  just walking around streets changing direction and I still didn't get any further.

I would have expected the treat method to be good as indoors she is very food oriented and I can teach her to do all sorts as she is a very quick learner,she'll even walk to heel but once we're out she's not interested in food one bit unless she is off the lead.  treating her to walk to heel was the first method I tried, in training class she does everything properly. 

I know just how you feel! I think with GSPs is not particularly that they are stubborn, but that they just get SO EXCITED, not just occasionally but nearly ALL THE TIME! And so they do find it difficult themselves to curb some behaviours when the excitement kicks in.
They are definitely not stupid, they learn quickly, but they also learn quickly what they can get away with.
I would definitely recommend a Dogmatic for when you want to walk somewhere without turning or stopping all the time, and just persevere with the training, I'm sure it will get better. (That's what I keep telling myself anyway!) No, actually, my 2 & half year old boy is quite good most of the time now, even though he was the most excitable of my 2 boys when he was a pup & pulled the worst. My younger one, who is the same age as yours, is still quite a puller when he is just on the lead. I do blame myself for this though, because as he wasn't so bad when he was little I didn't do nearly so much training with him.
The main thing is, do not give up! A GSP is a GSP, not a breed for someone who wants an easy life, but so so rewarding!

My 2 year old GSD is just the same. Walks beautifully to heel in the house and yard but as soon as we go outside all is forgotten. At 8 weeks she walked with only a touch of my little finger to control but has just got worse as time passed. I have tried the stand still since she was 20 weeks. She comes back to heel but then shoots off with the first step. I have tried treats to lure the correct position but she just mugs your hands and I end up with nibbled hands. I must add that this only happens on our way to anywhere on the way home I have to keep checking that I still have a dog on the end of the lead. She knows all the possible routes from the house, I have made sure to change my route but she is just too clever for her own good.

Hi Chez Swa,

I have tried all 3 of the major brand headcollars mentioned, and have to say for me personally and my Harry Houdini Husky :D the Dogmatic was definately the best, I was using it for a different purpose to you tho' I used it in the stages where I wanted to establish "look at me" bond with my dog.
      But none the less I cant recommend it enough... I may be a bit bias as Im a horse rider and the dogmatic (I believe?) was designed by people with an equine background, so I like the bridle ethos it has and find that easy and much more flexible to work with. Its design is great as you dont have the dog head fitting problem that you get with the halti.. which as you highlighted can be slipped out of!
     have a look at it on their web site ( thinks its www.dogmatic.co.uk) you can get leather which will need a bit more maintenance than the other types with a good saddle soap or treatment to keep supple on short haired dogs, or there is the synthetic leather which I went for which is more supple than the leather and doesnt go hard after use in wet weather, so a little less high maintenance.
     finally there is the webbing style, but the only problem (to my mind) with this one is they come in quite bright colours which may or may not be to your taste? bright red/blue etc...
      another quick word of advice if you fancy this type I ordered one for my sister a couple of days ago and had some trouble getting my order through online for some reason... it may be fixed now... but persevere!  and sounds like your getting used to persevering!! you poor thing hang on in there I really feel for you as I know all to well what its like to have a too clever for his own good dog!!!
:D :D good luck :D :D

Hi HuskyGal
the dogmatic website is
www.dogmatic.org.uk  :)

Aha!!! well spotted, I wasnt sure!
Thanks :D

Thanks. 

I had seen other threads that recommend Dogmatic but before I put my hand in my pocket yet again I wanted to make sure she wouldn't be able to pull it down with her paw and into her mouth - little minx, looking like an angel sleeping at my feet :)

Cheryl

Hi Cheryl,

The Dogmatic is an excellent headcollar - only thing I would say is that the loop which has the lead ring attached can be a little too long so if the dog lags behind you at all it may be able to get it between it's teeth.  

Regards, Teri

Just thought I would quickly say that I received my Dogmatics in the post today.  WOW :) they are fantastic.  A much better design and far better quality product than the Halti which I am currently using.  I put the Dogmatic on Sherry this lunchtime and just walked her around the garden, it was brilliant and didn't go into her eyes like the Halti does.

Hi
What Stroppimare says about excitement is dead right.  I have a 22 month old male GSP and have gone through what you are now.  All I can recommend is that you pick one method and stick to it;  don't mix up changing direction with stopping and waiting for the dog to come back to you or with the clicker.  You need to be 1000% consistant.  That may mean that you are the only person that walks the dog on the leash for a while.  Use the dogmatic/halti or whatever as a management tool when you are rushed and need to get from A to B in a hurry, but try to keep that to a minimum. 

I found the behaviour was situational....in other words, back to basics and start first of all doing loose leash walking in your living room.  (Boring!)  Then add the dining room and then the kitchen into the equation.  Once you have mastered that progress to the garden.   Then you can move on to the street, aiming for just a walk to the end and back, then building up to once round the block.  Then you try a different block and so on.  It may be MONTHS before you get to try and walk on grass and be prepared to take several steps backwards each time you change the environment.  It does ultimately work however;  as someone has said, your dog has had nearly 2 years of pulling which has been rewarding, so, you are going to have to spend a long, long time for her to unlearn this behaviour.  You really have to WANT her to succeed at this behaviour as you will have to put lots of work into it.

Also, remember your body language and try not to make too much noise, constantly verbally correcting or the dog may just time out from you if you know what I mean.

Re the comment on stubborness......I would say that my GSP is a very quick learner but sometimes chooses not to obey for whatever reason.  (High level distractions, too much testosterone or whatever!)  He occasionally therefore gets the 'you are a 22 month old pointer and you should be doing better than this lecture!' This is in the best school marm voice you can produce and for me results in ears and tail down, sorrowful look, but compliance!  Sometimes they understand beautifully but are just masters at taking the piss!   :-)

If you are in the Midlands you could try a Kay Lawrence 'Walk with Me' workshop - amazing how dogs progress in a day!  Think this has been discussed before so you should be able to find details via Search.

Good luck!

PS  Just out of interest, what affix does your dog have?  Mine is called Goshawkers Ravenseye and will be 2 on 9th January.

WOW

Your GSP's sound so much like my oldest Bedlington   It was pure excitement with him too, and a touch of I'll do it if I want but not if I don't ;)

I tried the stop and wait for a year, we never got anywhere - literally, as soon as I put one foot forward he'd be off like a train :(  I don't know how you manage with a dog so much bigger :(   I found that the changing directions worked, but it has to be fairly concentrated, at least a full minute, at a time ;) I used to end up feeling giddy - and yes my neighbours think I'm barmy ;) but then they can't walk their dogs without being pulled all over, when they do walk them  ;)
The best place to use it is an empty car park or smooth field, so you have plenty of space to move about ;)

Hi
Have just re-read this chain of posts and few more comments if I may.......

Firstly, if you are using the stop/go method, you should wait for the dog to come back to you and not correct it by saying 'back' or any other command.  Theory is that the dog has to CHOOSE to be with you and therefore this makes it all the more powerful.  Yes, you may have to wait a while until the dog is bored, but so be it!  Dogs are great at making us look prats!  :-)    Once the dog is back by your side, you shouldn't walk off again immediately.  Wait, count to ten until dog is focussed on you and then proceed.

Secondly, for the dogs that shoot off as soon as you go to move......when you go to walk off an awful lot happens before you actually take that first step which is how the dog cues into you that  you are about to go and gets a running start!  So, you need to practice with the dog by your side (stand or sit);  shift your body weight from one foot to the other, lift your left foot up as if about to move off and then put it back down again where it was originally.  Each time your dog moves, he has to come back to you.  It is only when your left heel strikes the floor in front of you that you want him to shift his arse!  :-)

Hope that helps some more.

I do tell her 'back' quite a lot so I will stop that.  Yesterday though as soon as we set foot from our gate I was determined not to let her win with the pulling and kept stopping.   I did say back but didn't have to prompt her much because what she started doing was running from front left side, circling around my right, running behind me  to end up at my left side.  You're right she makes me feel a prat :D

oh the pleasures of owning a gsp. ours is 26 mths and we're still tryin to work her out. We've had her from 10 wks old and have never gone a day since ,without tryin to instill the basics.
We know how frustrated you are feelin chez swa because we have been there many times. We have had her to obediance classes,one of only two dogs in the class to get her kennel club good citizens bronze award, then to the advanced classes,then to a gundog trainer. She seems to do really well then all of a suddan its BANG! and we have to go right back to the begining again. We know this doesn't help you with your problem but sometimes its just nice to know your not the only one feelin has you do.
Good Luck

He he!  GSPs all over!  For what it's worth mine got his Gold KCGS back in October....was a complete saint on the day, then a few days later was an absolute little ***!  Recall?  What's a recall?  Never heard of one of them!  Must look that word up in the dictionary when I get a moment......   :-)

Hmm.... Recall, I remember that.  She's quite good most of the time but just lately I've taken my eye of the ball, given her an inch and the madam has taken the mile.  You can't do the same route over and over because if she thinks she KNOWS where we're going she'll just gallop off without me.  I have to make sure that I take twists and turns to keep her guessing and waiting.  I keep saying I am going to put her back on a long line and then all of sudden she's back to being as good as gold.

just put mine back on the long line"again". we had a great two month spell were we actually thought we had cracked it,but unfortunatly not, she ran off and onto a main rd last week which has really shaken us up. Typical that her best two months were the dry, warm weather and since we put her back on the long line its been gales, poured down and now freezin so that the line is really uncomfy! ah bless her

chez_swara please don't think of things in terms of cruel and such words, you will end up making yourself tense or something. You are just doing what your trainer is telling you to do and you are ending up with seriouse problems that's for sure. Everything you are doing is a punishment and the worst of all is the halter types. They are a punishment gadget and not for training a dog, the loopi halite all of them are seriously syuspect for causing damage.
Sceintific studies have been done on them unfortunately they did not follow through with long term research for neck and vertabrate damage, I am surprised they have been recommended at all.
Also the pulling on a lead is also known to damage dogs necks and  vertabrate, I have the study somewhere but off hand I cant find it.
I think you might be a bit shy (I say that because you ask on the net instead of your trainer who should show you) but you seriously need to tell your trainer that you want reward methods shown, all this about right turn, stop and let dog hit end of lead are punishments, the haltie worst off all which is why your dog scrapes it off.
As your dog gets older by the day the bad habits are getting harder to break by the day and it needs to be stopped now, you and your dog are already suffering long term effects of poor training, you need a reward based trainer and you should tell your trainer to show you how to do it.

"Scientific studies have shown there is no evidence to support the notion dogs reactions to different halter head collarss are different, all dogs show severe stress reactions to all the head collars.
Study findings below:

"The responses of 12 dogs to four different head collars were compared in a crossover design over four 10 min sessions each spaced 2 weeks apart.
Group 1
included pawing, pawing nose, biting/pawing leash, opening mouth, rubbing face, and shaking head.
Group 2
included rearing up, balking, rushing forward, and rolling on ground.
No statistical difference was observed between dogs' reactions to the head collar types.
Based on this study, there does not appear to be an increased acceptance of one head collar type over another.
There were no long term follow ups so long term consequences are unknown."

Ref:
Comparison of dogs' reactions to four different head collars
L. I. Haug,  B. V. Beavera and M. T. Longneckerb

Sounds familiar - points? ;)

Ooooh, beat me to it!  :D

I've got a siberian husky - who as you can imagine pulls alot! I tried lots of headcollars which he always either pulled off or put his head down and used them to pull against! I recently purchased a dogmatic and so far that has been excellent :) I would definately reccommend you getting one.

I've ordered the Dogmatic.  The lady on the phone was wonderful, she had a singsongy voice and sounded really lovely.  Can't wait for it to come.

Carleon - I appreciate your advice and the research information you provided however, 12 dogs in 2 groups is an extremely small sample and 4 x 10 minute sessions over 2 weeks is hardly long enough to come to a conclusion let alone significance.

I have tried various methods, including rewarding.  If I had known about clicker from the start I would have definitely got to grips with it.  I will be trying this in due course but it obviously takes time to think about it and do it properly.  In the meantime I will use the Dogmatic when it arrives and I am sure this will take the stress out of walking rather than adding it in.

Cheryl

I'd just like to add that short term stress reactions do not necessarily equate long term stress.  People as well as dogs experience periods of stress without any long term harmful effects. 

In fact doctors recommend that a short period of stress (where the heart beats at double normal speed) every day is positively beneficial.

Hi carleon.

I'm sure you're writing with the best of intentions but what alternative do you offer for this problem? 

Our GSD had a severe traffic problem - went beserk trying to chase cars, dragging me with him into the busy dual carriageway that is the only exit to our cul-de-sac. We were his third rehoming and it had been made clear that, if returned, he would be PTS.  A head collar saved us both.  True, he gave a wonderful display of detesting it for the first five minutes but actually settled pretty quickly after that.  As JG says below, stress is a necessary part of life.  Just as there are no 'good' and 'bad' foods, only good and bad nutrition,all animals need to be able to cope with differing and even stressful situations in order to survive.

What would you have done in my case?  A harness that allowed him to pull like a sled dog? That could have seen him, me and whatever unfortunate drivers we collided with dead or seriously injured. 

And a final point; he actually felt more secure in the Dogmatic and will even now (when it's no longer in use) try and put his nose through the handle of the lead if overwhelmed by too many cars and looking for a familiar sensation of security.

I look forward to your response as I am always happy to learn and am very far from being any kind of expert.   

Jean is your dog a family members?, do doctors recommend causing stress to children by putting a physical punishment child head collar and lead gadgets on in class to aid learning through the stress caused. When you see your doctor for your stress has he doctor ever referred you to one of those special people who deal with things like stress?
Muttsinbrum your dog was an older dog and had a lifetime of accumulated behaviour problems when you got him, I applaud you for your kindness and patience and for rescuing him and doing your very best with a difficult dog. Having said that you would be surprised just how much knowledge has been learned in recent years wich have put things such as any of these head collar punishment gadgets back into the dustbin of the dark age where they came from.
I would recommend that you might help your dog more by seeing a behaviourist. They are up to date on all the modern positive methodes to employ with your dog in kind and fair ways, you will always find most vets only to pleased to refer you to one, maybe one of your local behaviourists would see you but generally they prefer a vets referral and many of them also do training if that's the best way.
I would also recommend Ches_swa find an accredited trainer in your area, training is about being shown how to shape behaviour not punish bad behaviour in this way and head collars teach nothing as you have found out when its off. If you go to APBC and APDT sites and look for people in your areas you will find a positive trainer or behaviourist who will only show you kind, fair and effective positive methods to pass on to your dogs benefit, negative physical punishments will have side effects, so please at least try them, there really is no need any longer for punishments, those days are gone.

If you want to see what damage these punishments do just type in search - behaviour, poster Lofty, haltie problems 360 days old  - there are hundreds like that all over the net.

I trust you have had no dealings with horses then? Would you ever consider leading a 16hh thoroughbred stallion in a normal collar just becuase a head collar may cause mild stress? Horses are antural flight animals so putting a headcollar on a young horse must be similar to putting one on a dog. Yet do you see people complaining how cruel they are? No, becuase they no there is no way they could control them without them. Many dogs don't like collars when we first put them on them but we still use them, so why  should headcollars, that make walking safer for everyone involved, be any different?

Hi
I am a qualified Equine Sports Massage Therapist, trained with Mary Bromiley - physio to NZ 3 day event team.  With young sport horses (0-3 years) that have not commenced their working life and are only led in hand, it is quite common to see asymmetrical muscle development and soft tissue damage in the neck.  This is frequently due to a novice owner struggling with unruly youngster who has not been taught any manners and walking the horse with its muzzle on their (the owners!) chest - often with their elbow shoved in the neck for good measure.  Horses are invariably led from the nearside, hence the development of the one-sidedness.  Whilst not a solution for either manners, straightness or pre-existing conditions, alternating leading from the off side can help to mitigate the developmental problem.  Maybe the same could be applied to dogs if you are concerned  about possible muscular damage.

Just a thought.....

>>do doctors recommend causing stress to children by putting a physical punishment child head collar and lead gadgets on in class to aid learning through the stress caused.

Children are restrained with reins, one type goes around the chest like a harness and one type fixes to the wrist.  It might be stressful for the child but it's better than the alternatives.

>>When you see your doctor for your stress has he doctor ever referred you to one of those special people who deal with things like stress?

People only need to see doctors for stress if the stress is ongoing as it is cumulative and can cause physiological problems.   Short burst of stress like the type you describe inthe experiments is not necessarily going to cause long term stress.  Once the dog gets used to a head collar it will look forward to wearing it as it will associate it with walks.  Personally I can't see the difference psychologically for a dog to wear a head collar or a lead. When my dog was a puppy she would roll around the ground and try to chew her lead when it was first introduced.  The difference with a head collar is hopefully she won't be able to pull, which is not only causing her physical discomfort but me physical discomfort too

I am sure you are only trying to help but I really can only see that you thinking the head collar is a punishment is your personal interepretation which is fine but it's not my interpretation.  I cannot see the difference between restraining a dog with a head collar or a lead.  If the head collar is a punishment then so is the lead. 

Don't worry, Chez, headcollars aren't the works of Satan that some might have you believe, and they do train a dog. I used one with our labrador when she was a headstrong youngster and I didn't want her pulling the pram (and baby!) over. I introduced her to the headcollar by, for two weeks, only putting it on her for mealtimes and whenever I was going to give her a titbit, or play a game of fetch (which she loved). Once she'd associated it with Good Things I attached a lead at the same time. Then after a week of this we could go for walks - and we had no problems. In her mind Headcollar = Fun. After a few months I could go back to just a normal collar and she wouldn't pull.

As you rightly say, getting a dog used to wearing a headcollar is no more cruel than getting it used to wearing a collar. It's no more a form of punishment than a teenage girl starting to wear a bra.

I'm glad you understood what I meant - should have said no difference between head collar and lead or normal collar and lead.

When some people talk about punishment and reward on here I really don't understand their logic. 

I like your way of introducing the collar indoors with games etc.  I will try that.  :)

lol - you should see my 2yr old when I put on his reins!! (Stress is too mild) but I would rarther this than he was run over :-(

Same with a dog, my friend has 3 dobes, 2 rescued from a owner who was going to PTS.  If it was not for these harness type leads they would never go out

The best thing a UK dog can do is emigrate to Korea or somewhere. This dog will never safely come off the lead, never, that, to a dog is a lifetime of punishment, no free running, no free sniffing, no free adolescent socialisation, nothing, just one life of punishment, already being wasted on lead or halti type.

Well with all that harsh wasted 'living?' going on who cares about blood from the eyes, muzzle and chronic stress behaviour, caused by all halti types, anyway.

You have let this dog down, a GSP should be running 30-40 maybe up to 100 miles every day in this cold weather at this age, your in Herts for heavens sake.

For heavens sakes, I travell all the way from London at least twice a week with my dogs for such wonderfull Herts countryside and your dog is stuck on a damned Halti type with all that countryside around???? - you should be ashamed of yourself.

- anyway, give it a halti type instead of a run,who cares about the blood anyway, poor dog. Worst of all, you know in yourself this is not going to get better, ever, and still you carry on with the nonsense, this is not a dog, it is a prisoner with no natural freedom, the right of every dog,--- TRAIN THE POOR THING PROPERLY GODAM IT!
Denis Carthy.

1-
Halti hell
http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/37442.html

2. - Haltie bleeding behind the eye.
Scroll to Caren 20.04.05 13:42
http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?tid=67379

3. - Halti Pain Lab
http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?tid=61921

4-Halti  problems
http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/32595.html

5-Haltie Nose Bleed
http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/31788.html

6-Doom and Gloom pulling on halti
http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/15434.html

7-Haltie Bleeding
http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?tid=66170;pid=480695;msg=ReplyPost#480695

Sigh.......It's Dennis again - not me!!!

Lokis MUM  (There Is No Alternative) :D :D

You were banned from this site why dont you just leave us alone and STOP taking my long standing name you fake, thank you.

erm...who is dennis and why is he trying to copy your name lokis MUM?

They say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery :rolleyes:

LOKIS MUM

Dennis

I have nothing to be ashamed of. 

I live on the edge of a new town and a less than a minute's walk to my park, on the other side of which is all the lovely countryside that you talk about.  My dog absolutely loves it.  She exhibits all the behaviours she was bred for and regularly flushes pheasant and rabbits.  Yesterday she flushed a fox only she still had her body halfway in the hedgerow when the fox emerged further up and legged it.  she spends 90+% off lead and the biggest mistake we've made looking back on how her lead pulling has developed is to only have let exercise this way.

I need to socialise her more and include walks through streets and shops etc none of which she does but until I can stop her yanking my arm off there is no way I am going to attempt to.

So before you jump to ludicrous assumptions about the way I treat my dog, get your facts straight.

You really do talk a load of cods wallop

Denis, don't be stupid. You know perfectly well that a headcollar on a dog is exactly the same as a headcollar on a horse. It doesn't cause bleeding from the eyes or anywhere else. Stop spouting your lies, go and learn some facts and stop scaremongering.

>It doesn't cause bleeding from the eyes or anywhere else<

The links are all above in my post, the haltie users knew what they were seeing and experiencing, problem is the way that (my post) post came out, you need to copy it into word and copy the links from there as they cannot be seen on here.

To be going on with, below the post where bleeding came from behind the eye, thats only one -

-you should not try to downgrade the damage done by these things, people are best (including you) reading what is said and making their own minds up, you are simply denying what posters have written and that is not good or sensible or, worst of all, not informative.

Bleeding behind the eye.
Scroll to Caren 20.04.05 13:42
http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?tid=67379

Then all the dogs I see wearing them (and walking perfectly nicely, with no blood anywhere) are obviously living on a knife-edge. :rolleyes: Get a grip, Denis.

>>http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?tid=67379

He said that the bleed behind the eye was caused by the headcollar.  How could he possibly know that?  He was assuming cause and effect through association. The bleed could have been caused by a number of things.

Tell me how keeping a dog from pulling on a lead with a normal collar is less strenuous than pulling on a head collar?

Err - could it be possibly, that even young horses are generally taller than the person leading them???   That might account for the head being pulled down!

Hi carleon.

Well the irony is that I did see a behaviourist (who worked with a vet, not our own) and she recommended the head collar as I didn't even know such things existed. She also also gave me a some advice about general management and recommended I start my own research on canine behaviour by reading Gwen Bailey among others, which I have done and which has considerably broadened my knowledge of dogs and how they view their interactions with humans. 
 
We are now at the point were I don't use a head collar but developing a relationship of mutual trust doesn't happen overnight so what was this young, active dog supposed to do for exercise and socialisation in the interim?