We get lots of threads on here asking for advice breeding non registered, cross breeds, unhealth tested dogs.  If I and other breeders, drop out of the breeding sceen, remove our health tested animals, no longer breed to type, what are we left with?

Quite honestly I am getting fed up with people telling me I am money grabbing because I want to continue my line.  It has already cost me a fortune.  Yes I've gone about it in what I consider to be an ethical way with all the health tests, screening and careful mating.  I show and work my dogs, excersise groom and love them. 

I am told be friends 'you could breed your dog to my friends boy, don't bother with all that heath test stuff, don't worry about vet bills - mating that's easy throw them out in the garden and let them get on with it'.  All this from people who have never riased a litter just have a boy dog who's good at his work and not registered.

I am downhearted that people, who I consider friends, barrack me with the argument - why cant your dogs be a different colour, shape, temperament, it wont make them any the less dogs.  Questions like 'why wont you let me use your dog on my bitch, she may be a missmark in your eyes but to me she is perfect'.

Seriously what are we left with?

I think I would be inclined to ask why they want YOUR dog to mate with their bitch.  If you get showered with answers such as looks, temperament, all connected with the hard work you have put in, I would then ask why would I want to mate my dog with your bitch then?

Too Harsh? 

Chez swa

Thanks for your response.

Yes you're right it is usually a case of what a lovely boy and so well groomed etc. 

You then go into the questions about their own line and what colours are behind them, are they hip scored.  Then horror of horrors you ask if you can put your hands on their dog and find it has no muscle mass, loose ligaments and may never have been exercised.  The coat is matted and the dog hyperactive in the extreme - I am not siting any one instance here, this is a generalisation - the ears a smelly and waxy and overgrown with ear hair.  At this point you turn to them and say I'm sorry, your bitch isn't in breeding condition but if you would like some advice on how to look after her I will be happy to try and help.  In the meantime what kennel are her dam and sire from?  Blank stare. Okay what is her pedigree name and are there any endorsements on her pedigree.

It is easy enough to trace my breed as there is a comprehensive data base, with hip scores and colour, readily accessible on the internet so it is easy for me to look back over the history of the dog.   When you look into it your line  would not compliment theirs at all bad colour choices or whatever.  So you get back in touch to tell them what you have found out and to give them advice about which show to go to and what to look for in a stud dog to be met with 'you stuck up c*w I only asked you because you were a short drive away.

I never give anyone the brush off without offering alternatives but it is usually me who ends up being slagged off.  In future I will be inclined to say 'you re not using my dog because I don't want you as my friends'. 

echo, We are not left with alot. Like you I get lots of comments from silly people that think its as easy as putting a bitch and dog together in the garden.
They honestly think you can make a fortune, I put them straight.....on all the costs and what they are thinking just damages the breed, to the point they buy a puppy farmed puppy and then moan to me that it is sick and has cost them a fortune in vet bills.
One day? maybe people will learn.....ITS SO SAD.

Lynn

golden girl

I have heard similar things along with the health problems etc.  I guess it happens in some instances, and yes I have heard of one particularly sad case, where a woman was bullied into allowing her dog to be used at stud on a bitch which was lovely herself but had problems with missmarking back in the line.  I know people can be very determined to get what they want and a woman on her own is an easy target.  She really didn't know too much about the process either but thought the other people did. 

The result was the puppies from this union were all badly missmarked and although sturdy little creatures should not be used in the breeding programme if we are to breed to type.  Do you think it will stop there, I don't.  I am now waiting for the next designer dog to come out of this which will be a hopeless missmark that will sell for at least a third more than the standard because it is a rare? colour.  Haven't heard of the dog being used at stud again though. 

I don't think people ever learn.  Well some don't.

Sorry should have added to Golden Girl

You're right about the health problems coming from puppy farms etc and I guess you get what you pay for.  The poor little mite may cost less than a well bred specimen but it could cost many times its purchase price in vet bills and you have no come back on the breeder because they haven't botherd to screen for anything or check for temperament.

Echo,

We will be left with plenty of dogs who bear no resemblance to each other or anything else ;) 

When people ask me what's the point of breeding pedigrees and being choosy about which ones I ask them why they got their 'pedigree', why it wasn't something else (I usually pick a dog from the opposite description ;) eg. short/tall, thin/chunky etc ;) )

I was told once by a 'very knowledgeable person' :rolleyes: in PAH once "Thats one o' them berdington whippet crosses"  "Is it?" I replied, "Yeah, they always breed Berdingtons and Whippets together, it's a better dog"  Looks pleased with himself, "Oh" says I "and where do they get the Bedlingtons and the Whippets if they're all crossed together?"  exit one idiot suitably pink :)

If you don't want to mate your dog to any of the bitches whose owners approach you, you could always tell them he carries a bad gene ;) ;)  or you could say he's neutered (you could say he has 'neuticles' ;) ;) ) that's always a conversation stopper :D :D :D

Hi Dill

I will certainly give that one a try, he has had a bit of trouble getting the hang of his neuticles but thankfully there fully functional now LOL!

Hi Echo
I married a man 20yrs ago but i didn't get him vet checked when we married but i should of as we have lost quite a few babies due to us having the same gene that is very rare.
I put a post on here to ask which season is best as we have got an Olde Tyme Bulldog who the K.C don't recognize but are fully aware of the British Bulldogs health problems
I got some very critical reply's which made me feel like a chav who is just out to make some ££ note's
I'am a middle aged women who love's her bulldog dearly and i just wanted some view's on which season to mate her
I owned a Rottweiler for 13 yrs who was K.C reg but sadly died a virgin
Yes hopefully i will be able to successfully mate Lola who will be checked by are vet and i am also willing to pay for the stud dog to be checked as well and if the litter is healthy all well and good if not i am lucky enough to be able to keep all her offsprings.

Simmone and Lola (a responsible dog owner)

all her offspring? what if she has ten pups? could you keep them all? the likelyhood is they will be healthy, but dont you have good homes lined up for them? if not you cant call yourself responsible!
i dont see either that its sad that your dog died a virgin. My 2 dogs we had whilst i grew up never had puppies and i still cherish their memories- having puppies wouldnt have changed anything

>all her offspring? what if she has ten pups?

From my first litter, which was accidental, I ended up keeping 2 pups as I could not find one last GOOD home for the final pup.(And having brought the pups into this world it was of course my responsibility to keep any that could not be homed to responsible people.) NEVER AGAIN. It basically was the biggest mistake of my life to have 2 littermates. I shudder to think what life would be like had I kept all 9.

Much as puppies are lovely and it is a great experience to have a litter (although amazingly hard work and EXPENSIVE) the RELIEF once they start going to their new homes and you are just left with the one you are keeping is INCREDIBLE. Finally you have a life again. :)

You have space and enough staff to give a whole litter (8+ puppies) the one-to-one attention they deserve? For a start you'd be walking dogs 8 hours a day, because they'll all need individual walks, training and socialisation.

And what's sad about your Rott 'dying a virgin'? How do you know she wouldn't have died whelping, or contracted an STD? Living to 13 proves that there's no need for a bitch to have a litter to have a long, healthy life.

Hi Simmone and Lola

I hear what you are saying and I am keen to look at both sides of the debate.  Simply my point is that I have been careful to screen prospective bitches who are put forward for my stud and done every thing I can to ensure healthy pups.  I have caried out as much research into my lines and the lines of bitches who are looking at my stud as

I have the deepest repect for any responsible breeder. I bought a puppy from a breeder and I lost him at a young age to a genetic condition. When I contacted the owners of the dam and sire I was told "never mind, would you like to buy another one ". They did not give a hoot to the pain and suffering that the pup and myself had gone through.
So to all you good breeders out there, carry on the good work for the good of the breed and to all of us that fall in love with our dogs and want them to have a happy healthy life. :)

Sorry I got cut off before I could make my edit

Hi Simmone and Lola

I hear what you are saying and I am keen to look at both sides of the debate.  Simply my point is that I have been careful to screen prospective bitches who are put forward for my stud and done every thing I can to ensure healthy pups.  I have carried out as much research into my lines and the lines of bitches who are looking at my stud as I possibly can knowing that if I make an error of judgement I could have pups coming back to me from the matings I have sanctioned through my stud dog.  I am a responsible breeder.  When I am faced with people telling me that their bitch is great and will be bred from whether I like it or not I can only accept that they now their own dog.  When the same people go off and breed her to a totally different breed just to get some cross breed pups I sigh and realise I made the right judgment.

I hear what you are saying, and first of all I am sorry for your personal loss.  I don't know anything about your breed but I wonder if they are recognised somewhere and if you have papers confirming her ancestors.  You have obviously researched your breed and I would imagine, I don't know for sure, that if she is recognised somewhere (possibly America - again I don't know) you may be able to obtain frozen seamen to impregnate her with.  I wouldn't even consider going to these lengths unless I was sure of the parentage and health issues of the stud.  Do the studs you might use here have family history.  I am guessing that you have some sort of registration for her from your breeder and that she is not of unknown parentage and in that respect all I can say is that as long as you are aware of the risks and you know what you are doing you probably will breed a successful litter.  The costs, as I am sure you have heard on here, can be astronomical and no insurance covers a novice breeder,  they will cover if you insure 6 months before you mate your bitch and if she has a complication free pregnancy then you will be covered for the second whelping.  All this comes to much more that the cost of a c section and really isn't much help to the novice.

You are obviously a very caring person, people who have had life's traumas usually are but the responses you will get here are from dedicated dog people who have in the main seen some pretty awful things happen with ill advised matings.  To get the very best advice for you personally you should go to you breeder and ask as many questions as you can.  If you breeder wont help you or doesn't think it is a good idea, I think you have your answer

Simone the only legitimate reason for breeding is to preserve, advance and improve a breed. 

From none of your posts is it evident that you are seeking to do this with your as yet unrecognised breed, if you were you would not have been asking such basic questions. 

You would have joined with others who are trying to establish the breed and know what your bitch has to offer the 'breed' and what you hope to achieve with her puppies to advance the 'breed'.  You would have been able to quote the breed standard that these people are working towards etc.

If you just want your bitch to have pups that is irresponsible given the number of dogs of all kinds in rescue, especailly the bullbreed and Stafford crosses.

Having a GP vet give dogs a once over is simply inadequate.  We are talking proper screening by specialists.  Hip Scoring (paid £170 in Feb) Eye testing (around £30), Heart testing (no idea of the cost, but you need to see a specialist cardiologist to grade).

Do you know which breeds are in your bitches background?  You will need to look into all their health problems, as inevitabley you will be breeding her to other dogs with similar ancestry, so could double up, and so bring out any recessive bad traits of both parents.

Do you know the qualities and faults of your bitches prents?  You shoudl also know or be able to find out form ehti breeders and owners and research what the traits of most of the dogs in her five generation pedigree.  They will all have a bearing on her potential offspring, though the ones closer up are likely to have more, but sometimes traits skip many generations.

Just a thought.

If someone were to breed a litter of pups from un health tested parents for whatever reason and kept all the litter.  Having made the decision to breed these pups then goes on to insure them (that could be quite a costly exercise).  If the litter or half the litter goes on to develop life long  serious health conditions.  Do you think the insurance company would be willing to pay out for-ever of would there maybe a get out clause for them because clearly the parents had health issues.  Food for thought eh!

Some unwanted traits/conditions in certain breeds can skip more than ten generations, when it arises in pups breeders and owners can be devastated :(

This is where actually knowing the dogs/breeders (and honesty ;) ) comes into the equation, most pedigrees only list 5 generations, if you can go back more than ten then its far more helpful, but you need experienced breeders who have actually known those earlier dogs well and are able to tell you about them, if you want to avoid some nasty surprises ;)

That's were I find my breed especially easy to research.  You can trace every dog which has a pedigree through the database and take it back to its origins, in fact to the original dogs that the breed was re-established from.

I have been looking at the Olde Tyme Bulldog on the internet and while it is a sturdy looking dog I can see that a lot of people are making it out to be a 'mean machine' to quote one breeder who offers his 'bad boy' stud on the internet.  Such as shame if dedicated people are trying to get the breed recognised.  I haven't found the breed registered in any country as yet and the breed standard seems to vary from country to country but I will keep looking and learning.

Hi Echo
Just to put your mind at rest my bad boy Lola dosen't even bark at the door and wags her tail when the window cleaner comes she is the most soppiest dog i know and to the remarks on the breeder who thinks he is making mean machine's should be castrated and yes if i do decide to mate Lola and she has 8-15 pups i'am in a postion to keep all of them as i own stables to put all minds at rest.

"8-15 pups i'am in a postion to keep all of them as i own stables to put all minds at rest.  "

Umm .....8-15 dogs of ANY breed kept all from the same litter are a recipe for disaster - keeping them in stables will surely mean that you cannot posssibly socialise or excercise them properly not to metion the sheer scale of doing things like house training, the cost of feeding correctly, vets bills ec. Pease think this through and tell me you are not serious about the above quote

Yvonne

This happened with alady in our breed a few years back, she had made her dog up and mated him to a nicely bred bitch that she had bought and kept most of the litter.  They ahd land etc.  Wel as you can imagine by the time they were 18 months it was a disaster.  The male pups started fighting among themselves and their Sire, the bitches probably too, and the girls w3as just overwhelmed.  Rescue managed to persuade her to let them rehome some of them, and she ended up dropping out of breed circles.

Simmy even the most expereienced breders nalk at keeping more than one puppy of the same litter or similar age.  In bullbreeds especially that can often be dog dominant (some of the breeds in the retro bulldog mixes are very much this way) then it truly is a recipe for disaster.

You do not even know what it is like licing with one mature adult as yours is still a pup with her final character not yet formed.

For the good of any potential pups rethink please!!!!

so what kind of life would 8-15 pups have in a stable for gods sake? i presume you would have them in outside stables/kennels? isnt this puppy farming? why would anyone want 15 pups of the same breed/litter anyway? one pup at a time is a struggle but 15!!!   i think you need to come back down to earth. if you are going to breed then you need new owners lined up first- otherwise why are you breeding?

Masses of untrained, unsocialised dogs living in stables? Puppy farming, eh? :rolleyes:

Hi Brainless

I have a similar story to yours.  An acquaintance of mine, breeds big working dogs, new to breeding but made up a champ and mated it to the newly acquired bitch from excellent lines.  Decided to keep most of the litter, which was great when they were pups but as they grew and demonstrated their own personality they fought amongst themselves and had to be separated.  The same mistake was made once more keeping two bitches from the same litter who, inseparable from one another, could not be allowed to mix with the rest of the dogs for fear of injury.

It was a hard and expensive lesson to learn, but she was in a position to build good kennels and separated the dogs, still shows with great success, but with hindsight would never again keep more than two from one litter and spend every waking minute socialising either the one or two with the rest of the dogs under supervision or puts them away in their separate kennels. 

To Simmy

I don't want to turn this thread into a whitch hunt, it is about the responsibilities of being a good breeder, we learn by our mistakes, we can also learn be others because that's what responsible breeders do.  The most important thing in your breed now is to establish good lines and to get the breed recognised.  No where did I suggest your girl was a 'bad boy', simply stating the image some (IMO bad breeders ) are trying to portray.  It is done with Mastiffs and their crosses when I know from most of the Mastiffs I have met and one of my sons has two of them, that they are lovely dogs bred with care they are the most loving creature.

I have looked again at the information available to me and I will say again, there are some lovely specimens of your breed out there.  I know what I would be doing now and that is joining with others who are working to get the breed standardised, get your dog shown and seen at any shows they can be seen at and raise the public's awareness of them.  This is the only way you will get them accepted. 

Approach the whole breeding issue another way and be aware of all the pit falls, talk to as many people as you can that own your breed,  Be knowledgeable.

I can't win either way can i   !!!!!!

I am sorry you feel that way. I think you can win by being proud of your girl and showing her off at companion shows hopefully gaining a few rosettes along the way.  Who knows, I am sure someone in your breed is working hard to get them recognised and if that happens you will be able to compete at the big shows and litters will be registered.  Isn't that worth working towards.

I have decided to restrict my activities to showing and obedience only as clearly I have a lot more to learn, although I thought I was pretty knowledgeable until I started to read how other people handle things.  I have been in my chosen breed for 13 years, my partner more than 25 and I am still leaning but not nearly quickly enough.  I own a dog who is sought after as a stud but I agonise over using him and wont now after I fulfill my promise to two lovely people who have approached me and done their tests and research.  Yes he is a find specimen of his breed, yes he is health tested and I will stand by by people and advise them as best I can and rehome pups and adult dogs as needed. 

Have you ever thought the reason you 'can't win' as you put it is that you are being totally unrealistic and people with a lifetime more experience in breeding dogs are trying to stop you making the biggest mistake of your life?

Work on the premise that you will be able to keep one puppy, don't breed her till she's at least 18 months old, do as much research as possible, be prepared if you breed for things to go wrong - despite what the people say who have this breed, there is still a very good chance your girl may need a caesarian as they are big puppies with big heads... are you prepared to lose your lovely girl under an anaesthetic and/or have to hand raise a full litter of puppies? And don't think how lovely it would be to hand raise puppies, you'll wish you wee in the psychiatric ward just for a break if it happens!

Anyway, if you're still determined to do it, consult your girl's breeder and see what stud he suggests. If he suggests crossing her with another breed or breeding from her under at least 18 months and preferably 2 years old, he's a berk. Also ask what genetic tests such as hip displaysia are needed - again if he says there is no need as they are healthy, he's a berk!

HI Phoebe

From what I read, and again no expert, the breeding concerns are 'Males should be free breeders and females should be free whelpers. The Olde English Bulldogge should be devoid of all breathing problems'.  As you say a concern would be to ensure that during birth the head will pass easily through the birth cannal, so I think there may be an issue with difficult births and bitches who have difficulties should not be bred from.  As for Males being free breeders, I imagine this means to be able to breed without assistance such as AI but I don't know.

The info was taken straight from a sight that seems to know a great deal about the breeding programme.

The only trouble is you only find out that a bitch is free whelper or not after it's too late. I know that's one of the aims of the breed but it can and does happen in all breeds, the bulldog breeds being more succeptible. If simmy is serious about breeding, she needs the support of somebody experienced in the breed to take her under thier wing and point her in the right direction. She also needs to take a reality check and ask herself WHY she's doing it, WHAT can go wrong and WHERE the resulting puppies are going to end up for their best interests.

I once had a friend who owned a heinz 57 and she got caught whilst out on the run and my friend was left with 8 pups,of these only 3 were found new homes and she decided that she would keep the rest.
What a gigantic mistake.
The pups bonded with eachother and not her and started to run haywire.By the time they were 3 months old they had completely destroyed her house,her garden and her nerves.Sadly she had to take them to the nearest shelter and we were told that although they were found homes quite quickly,they were constantly being returned as they were ''WILD''.
We were told that because they were born and raised as a pack they continued to behave like a pack of wild dogs.
They were eventually found new homes as 1 of them is fast asleep now on my mums sofa.She was horrified at the thought that the would be pts and decided to take 1 on herself.He took years to calm down but now he is an adorable old timer who will be 11 in march :)
I know that 2 died of natural causes but I dont know what happened to the others :(

Well done Waffy's mum for rescuing that pup and giving him a long and happy life.  The bonding issue is of monumental importance and with more than one, its more than hard work. 

Hi Phoebe

Yes that is what I thought, as you say you only find out after it has happened and then the bitch is either dead or withdrawn from the breeding programme.  Would it be fair to say that if the mother of the bitch had trouble giving birth the bitch would most likely have problems?

Hi echo just to let you know i have found a very good website for my breed and they have been more than helpful with my q's not having a dig like most of you we all have to start somewhere as i stated i have read and webbed all i can about breeding and about my breed but to me i like to ask the q's to people who have had experience so please don't be hard on us new breeds we just want to learn from your mistakes many thanks

Simmy I am very pleased to hear it.  Good luck with getting your breed standardised and recognised they are very attractive dogs. 

Simmy I'm glad to hear that you are doing as much research as possible. None of us were getting at you, just trying to warn you of possible mistakes that are commonly made by novices and the stuff that can happen that nobody can avoid. But at least if you are aware of these things, you can be forewarned and make a more complete assessment of what you wish to do.

All breeds need new people and we were all new to our breeds once! Same with all KC recognized breeds - they were all unrecognized once and I have two breeds that have ony been in the UK and KC registered for 20 years or so. I wish you the best of luck when you mate your girl and hope your pups contribute to Olde English Bulldogges being a uniform, sound, healthy and good natured breed in the future.

Surely 2 is early enough to breed from?? IMHO I think 18months is TOO early for ANY breed, but especially so for a bullie that needs to fully develop???

i started reading this post with mixed feelings as i do think that a lot of breeders can be judgemental and forget that they once were novices.  most people come across this website because they are genuine dog lovers and if they are given the right advice in the right manner would think twice (at least) about breeding.  the really good thing to come across from this thread is echoes unpatronising advice and reluctance to enter into an argument. 

I hope simmy doesn't mind me posting, she is going to start showing at companion shows early in the new year, has got in touch with others in the breed and will take it from there. 

Now this is a success story and I wish them lots of fun and wins on the way!