I am new to dog showing and am unable to understand how it is that certain judges can be so blatant and no-one in authority seeks to stamp it out.  I am aware that gossip tends to be somewhat embroidered at times, but it seems to be a fact that there is knowledge that some very dubious practises abound. 

A friend told me recently that she had been speaking to one fairly new judge and just generally enquired about one of the classes at a show to be held some time hence, and was told "I have already decided who I am placing".  I was obviously dismayed, I was then told that it has been known for judges to phone their friends and tell them to enter shows they were going to be at, and I cannot understand why the Kennel Club allows this sort of thing.  It is fraud!  Cricketers and footballers have been ruined by similar behaviours.

This all means that it hardly seems worth the bother of showing dogs.  If you are not a "face", as I understand it is termed, you might be overlooked.  I suppose that to SOME, the point of showing is that the more they win the more people will want to buy their puppies and use their studs and the more lucrative it all is, and as long as they acheive that it's all that matters, but to me a fixed result would seem pointless, as I am sure it does to the majority.  But I am at a loss to understand how the "jobs for the boys" stuff is allowed to go on.  It can never be entirely stamped out, but I am mystified that it seems to be generally known that there are underhand practises and it is just accepted, so that judges like the above have no qualms in telling a mere aquaintence that they are going to throw the result.  Amazing!  Surely she should not have known who was going to be there prior to the day anyway?  Sort of brings all sorts of questions to mind.

As I say, I am new to the game, so I hope my candidness isn't offensive to anyone.  I just felt these questions needed to be asked.  I suppose it's the same old story, you don't blow the whistle if there is the chance you might be the first to be crucified?  I have worked for the NHS long enough to have learned that.  In the end though, all becomes anarchy and you either leave, become a part of it or ignore it. 

Im sure many of us would happily blow a whistle, if we could prove  it.  A lot of  it is hearsay and gossip , the few  cases that are true are shocking and the "judge"  has to live with his conscience , and it wont take too long for other exhibitors to realise whats gone on  IF  the dogs he placed didnt deserve to win.
Id not let it get to you,there are corrupt people in all walks of life but if your dog is good enough it should  win as most judges are honest.

I  think most breeders try to get something that will win for them in a litter, not so they can sell pups for more or charge more  for a stud dog., but to make it possible to compete and hold their own  its a very competitive hobby for most and the litter might cover the stud fee rearing and going some way toward showing the puppy they keep.

One can only make an official complaint if there's actual evidence to back it up. Otherwise it's just gossip ... :(

Hello new to dog showing.  Don't fall into the trap of letting others at the ring side turn you into a gossip.  If you innocently pass on snide comments because you are new, I mean the other persons snide comments, they always come back to haunt you. 

When you've been in showing for a few years you may find you are a face, really it just means you are well known the judges that have been around for a while.  And yes judges do seem to place the faces they recognise but generally you will see a good dog at the end of the lead.  On the occasion this is not the case, I simply make a note never to go under that judge again but stick to the ones that I know are fair.  Am I a face in the making?, I don't know but the judges we regularly see will surely get to know us as remember that we have a good dog at the end of the lead.

Just a foot note.  We definitely don't win all the time, we have some good wins and some shocking failures.  Can sometimes be against the same dogs with different judges.  Even the top names in our breed loose out to new dogs coming up from unknown faces.  Its a lottery and my list of fair judges is longer than the list of judges I judge to be biased.  May be that they are not biased they just don't like my dogs, just gotta keep going and looking for that big win.

We've only been showing for a couple of years and have been on the receiving end of 'face judging', but I think if you have a really good dog the judge can't help but notice it.   We've made a note of the judges not to go under again, so in the end it's the 'face' judge who loses out on entries.    Also, most breeders keep the better dogs and a lot are more experiened in showing the dogs and getting the best out of them (including hiding their faults).   Maybe in 10 years time or so we'll become a 'face' (when the apprenticeship is over), but it's a hobby and we enjoy meeting people on the show circuit.

sarah

One thing people seem to forget in all this is that those "faces" were once just like them, in as much as they had to start out as a novice showing their dog.  It's the thing I hear most from the newer exhibitors at ringside - "oh they only won because of who they are".  MOST of the time it's because they have dogs that are better than the newbie or at least equally as good and when they're equally as good the "faces" handling and presentation is normally better. 
In my breed ANYONE can bring out an outstanding puppy and have it made up within two years easily - I've lost count of the times it has happened.  This years Top Bitch in my breed is indeed the owners first real showdog and has won CCs now into double figures.  That's because the bitch is outstandingly good and BETTER than any of the "faces" dogs.  This happens all the time but it's always the negative comments that are heard. 
As for someone already having an idea what they're going to place at their next appointment - in a numerically small breed this may well be the case as you already know most of the dogs pretty well.  Most people that say that surprise themselves on the day by doing something completely different anyway!  LOL
I know that face judging does go on but as other people have said, just don't go under that judge again.  But please, just because the same people win most of the time doesn't mean that that judging was fixed.  It might just mean they have better dogs than yours ;)

I have fallen a victim of 'face' judging as I am showing my first ever dog, so it does happen, but as people have said, it's impossible to prove. If you went to the KC and said 'that dog isn't as good as the other dog', the judge would just say 'oh, the other dog didn't move well on the day' or something. And I agree that most faces will be handling the better dogs if not always the best dogs. But there are plenty of fair judges who will put up the best dog regardless of who owns it, my Henry's results prove it, though alas I think it now unlikely he will be made up. Persevere and you will get there if your dog deserves to! :-)

Personally I'd be very careful of the people in the breed who love to gossip and stir things ;) you find them around every breed ring and often they haven't a good word to say about any dog in the ring - unless its one of theirs ;) and often theirs are nothing to look twice at ;)  Listen to everything, repeat nothing, learn from everyone and make friends with nearly everyone, they can teach you so much if you let them ;)

Yes face judging does go on, but equally there are some lovely judges out there who know a good dog when they see it and don't care who owns it ;)  I have heard of judges giving CC and BOB to dogs of owners they really dislike, but they would never pass over a good dog because of it ;)   If you have a nice dog and learn to handle and present it well you'll start getting placed, but showing will always hold surprises for you :)

Good Luck and never forget - You ALWAYS take the best dog home with you :) :)

I bought a puppy from a 'back yard breeder'  (Lovely lady who hip/eye tested)  No affix (apart from mine at the end)

Jumped in at the deep end at a champ show when she was 6 1/2 month old & got 3rd minor puppy!!! even though she was really naughty in the ring.

She has done well since, but at the time I had never been to a show before & I got a few tuts from the others who did not get placed (especially as she was a blue).
The judge also said she would of been placed higher if she stood instead of sat, was better behaved ect & recommended I attended ringcraft classes :-)

So I dont think you have to be a 'face' with all judges

Yes it does go on but one thing you do learn is to be thick skinned.  Just think why you started showing in the first place.  For me it is a hobby and although some judges are facey and cant do their own thing it is still an enjoyable day out.  Just choose your judges carefully. :-)

Hi Tennostaffs

You are absolutely right.  If you have a good dog at the end of your lead you will be noticed.  We had only been showing for two years, and had one win at a champ show and a couple at open shows - no one knew us then we had a win at Crufts.  I can only say that our judge was marvelous, knew what she was looking for and although she must have known many of the faces, placed us, an unknown. 

I still keep my list of fair judges, needles to say she is on the top of it.

We have been in obedience and working for a long time before showing so not exactly novices but certainly in the show ring.

I think everyone has made the right points.
I'm on my second dog. My first dog,  I did show with some success but I never was really into it then.
My second dog i've had a lovely year (just come out of puppy). We've had ups and downs but in a large breed entry at every show, he's regularly been placed in the top two.
There is faciness and bitchiness in my breed as i'm sure there is in all breeds. I would never dream of making comments on other peoples dog as I love the breed as a whole and it's a pleasure to watch any of them in the ring.
I've had a show where I was told the judge kept looking at my dog but spent as much time looking at me, trying to place me. I ended up with a second in a large class. So I do believe that if you have a good dog, it will eventually get there. The nice thing not being known, is what i've won the dog has got, fair and square.  I have been to shows though and it's been round the ring whose getting the tickets etc. and it's turned out they have.
I'm afraid there's no way round it. The only thing you could do is everyone handle everyone elses dog. And that's something even I wouldn't agree to.
I think the main thing is to enjoy the show for what it is. Taking the dog in the ring is only a small part out of the day. What I love is I have come away and made some really good friends including ones who I am competing with at every show.
Like previous replies have said, you make a note of what judges have done you proud and ones who you will never go under again.

And like Dill said "You take the best dog home everytime"
If you forget that then your missing the whole point of having a dog.

Yes we should all swap dogs and wear paper bags on our heads...LOL

When my bitch went into Junior there were 6 in her class at this show and she got binned.  The judge came up and looked at me and said "sorry".  This judge is a well known face placer and had I known it was this judge judging the show I would have stayed at home.  I knew the face but not the name...lol.  Anyway not much later at another show my girl was entered in Junior and Special Yearling.  She got a 2nd in Junior and won Yearling beating the judge who had binned her previously.  Lets just say that made my day - the judge may not have known me previosuly but certainly did at that point LOL 

On another note I too would never comment on anyone elses dog in the ring or at a show but there are several people who seem to enjoy slagging off other people dogs when they are in the ring, either there ears stick out, or they just dont like the dog (or the owner).  Some of these people are judges too and should know better!!!  I think ANYONE should be able to enter a show regardless of how good their dog is.  If they want to pay their money and enter then they should be able to enjoy a day out without narrow minded people taking the micky out of their dog.  People should think that this may be the only enjoyment some people get and they may just want a day out with their dog win or loose.  Sadly for some people showing is a way to score points.  I have even boycotted one show in particular because of the treatment I and other people have received from its committee members - they should be sacked. :-)

My puppy enters the ring in Feb which I am looking forward to as she is an improvement on her mum (who has a rcc) so I am hoping she does as well as her, if not better. 

Excellent revenge Lisa! :-D

very true what megan57collies said.   If you, as an unknown, wins/gets placed then at least you know it's on your own merit and not who you are and there must be a greater sense of achievement in that.