Hiya,

I hope im posting in the right section??lol I am one of a few people behind a new site aimed at helping educate people on the current staffy plight in rescues/pounds throughout the country.It was brought to my attention that the site had been mentioned on here so i thought id pop in and say hi :)

If anyone has any question etc about the site/aims/anything at all please just ask.

Also while im here if you get a chance to fill in our survey that would be great!lol

The site can be found here: www.staffycross.org

Hope this is ok with the admin here?

regards

staffycross.

Nearly in tears! Didnt realise this problem was widespread- you seriousy need to do something down here in mid-wales, we have had none stop litters all summer- all pups going to young lads, managed to get a few insured at work (vets) but i know they arent going to stay with them all their lives, its really sad, as staffs are such people dogs..xx

I couldn't agree more, there are too many people breeding Staffies with no thought at all. Apart from money. I've looked at that site and it really makes you think. :(

I think admin should put that at the top of the breeding section.  It is heartbreaking.

That site is sad :-(

We dont have a huge ammount of staffies around here & the local kennel has an intrest in staffies/crosses & we have done fundraising for them in the past.

So we are lucky

Have you thought about running an online photo show to raise funds?
We have done it before - email me on mikeburden1@aol.com if you want ideas & help

It would also raise awareness

Hi staffycross,

Sorry - accessed the website and wimped out before the end, tears in my eyes (and I'm a hard nut to crack in the sentiment department).

Anyway here's my twopenn'orth: we inherited a Whippet/Staffy X from my daughter.  I was distinctly underwhelmed.  We were in the market for a second rescue dog but I wasn't drawn to either of these breeds and the bitch herself didn't attract me at all. My one valuable dog vacancy was being used up by this small, short-haired, skinny, manic little ratbag.  (One of my first posts was 'Can I ever learn to love this dog?' that's how sad I was.)  

What can I say? She's the dog of my life. She teaches and beguiles me in equal measure and watching her outwit and 'manage' our other dog (male GSD) is a constant entertainment.

So to all those hesitating about these crosses; go for it.  You have nothing to lose but your heart.

Maybe you should also read how many people here suggest and attempt to influence people to believe the contrary of what you are saying is true. Bad stories about the 'staff problem' is just a load of cobblers and wild exagerations, they suggest.

If you read the posts below and then onto the page after you will see who beleives what you are pointing out and who tries to block such information.

Oh, by the way, sounds like you are liveing in the real world, only the brave from that world post here. Good luck, I hope your endevours help, despite the many hinderences, which propogate, nurtur and inevitably increase the problems, you will come across on the way,illustrated below.

http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?tid=79236;pg=2

I am sorry Denis, but everyone here tries to discourage and point out the overbreeding of Staffies and Staffie crosses by those who just want to breed for the 'market' and that Rescues are full to overflowing of them. 

I don't know if I dare look at this site - I just might end up throwing the computer throught the window. However, that's not constructive so I'll try to be both brave and not lose my temper.

There is an article today on http://www.ukpets.co.uk entitled "Staffordshire Bullterrier in crisis" saying it is being overbred "with supply far outstretching demand". Thought everyone might  be interested -and especially those considering breeding more........

we have so many adds in shop windows  here for staffies,for around £100/£150.
its awful.i really hope the "guardians" of this breed can do something about it,

i started to look at that site,but had to stop,getting too upset.they all look so sad,nothing like the happy staffies that you see.

most people on here know im wary of staffies,but something must be done to stop all this breeding,NOT because i want to see less staffies but because i DONT want to see sad staffies like that.

in my own breed we also have high rescue problems

The only crisis "The Guarians of the Breed" are aware of is the fact that very few staffs born have pedigrees so "The Guarians of the Breed" are loosing out on reg fees. Anyway this was a crisis long ago whats so different now is some people can no longer stay in denial.

The 'guardians of the breed' receive nothing in registration fees, as it's breeders who are the guardians of their breed!

Since when have the 'Guardians of the Breed' ever got anything from registration fees, it is the breed clubs that are the breeds guardians and the breed rescues that pick up the pieces from the dogs not breed by the clubs members but those just feeding the market.  Guess who funds the breed rescues???

Oh my god, that was one sad site to see. :(  Few of them look exactly like my one which by the way came from another irrisponsible breeder. My dog's mom nearly died giving birth and yet he bred her next year..... I was so mad, but couldn't do anything about it! I took my Ory because I felt so sorry for her. I wanted to take all 8 of them with me.
Is it really such a big problem in UK? We have the same problem with Pitt Bulls and AmStaffys in my country. Every idiote breeds his bad example of the breed and sells it to anyone........ there's a massive overpopulation of AmStaffys everywhere you go. You don't see any Staffordshire Bull Terriers though. Obviously they're not as popular outside UK.

Thats is so sad, but yet people are still breeding this breed, I have a local paper I get every wednesday, there is always about  6 staffordshire bull terriers offered at stud.  I have many people stop me in the street and ask about my dog, if i would like to use him , I always say no.    One man wanted to use him, his bich was only 1, i said do you not think she is a bit young, he looked at me as is i were crazy.  I also visit a similar website Northern Staffordshire bull terrier rescue.  I hope the people who are thinkning about breeding there dogs have seen this and change their mind.

i think they may be more popular,because pitbulls & amstaffs are banned,so alot of the people wanting a "tough" dog jump on the staffie & of course they can get them cheap now! :( i guess the problem with alot of the crosses is somepeople trying to mix them with breeds to get them bigger

Thats the thing i dont understand yes the staffy looks tuff, but in the right hands its one off the softest breeds I know, I have never know a tuff staffy.lol Mine would like a burglar to death.

i have seen a few dogs in my area, very big "staffys" I am very forward, i have went up and said, what breed is that, to be told its a staffy.   I know of at least 5 pitbull X or pitbulls in my area being passed off as staffys, it really annoys me. 

i dont know anything about staffies really,would they not protect your home or protect their owner if they were attacked.i know my dogs would

michelled,
I'm pretty sure my staff would need me to protect her and she would lie on the sofa thumping her tail if anyone broke in the house.  If anyone threatened her she would probably pee on their shoes!!  I don't know many staffies that would be nasty towards people as they are just lovable huggy lumps.

I haven't looked at the website yet because its too early in the evening to spend the rest of it in floods of tears

My staff wouldnt protect anything :D she dont even bark when the door goes she would make a useless guard dog :D

I have looked on the site many times find it very upsetting thinking my little girl would have possibly been PTS if we had not rehomed her, more people need to come forward to save so many dogs in plight, but I dont feel this is going to happen, theres just too many ending up in rescue, my local one is full of Staffs and Staff crosses :( :(

The only thing my staffie will protect is his food, he is such a softie and loves people and will lick them to death.

thats so sad brought tears to my eyes,and people still want to breed crosses .obviosly init for the money coz if they was in it for the dogs needs they wouldnt breed. but 1 thing 1 of the pics on there ive seen somewere else??? just a bit weired.
ive dont the survey hope we can help the situation,befor any more healthy non agressive dogs are put to sleep :(

brainless

>Guess who funds the breed rescues???<

I am not guessing anything, this an info site please tell me who funds and therefor owns breed rescues? All of them or just a few?

What I meant was anyway, why is the KC suddenly chunering on that link above, all they do is take the reg fees of dogs which are registered, which in fact it is only a tiny, tiny proportion of the breed the majroty of staffs are nothing to do with KC in any way, the same as the majority of UK dogs. KC is a group off office workers/ business people sitting in a plush office Mayfair, nothing more.

Michelled

>i think they may be more popular, because pitbulls & amstaffs are banned,<

You have got it right on the head. Staffs were growing in popularity in the 80's but then pit bulls came and by late 80's they were all over the place. After the ban in 91 they disappeared for a few years, Staffs became poupular to some extent but it has been this past 5 years and especially this past 2 they have the kids must have. Early this year after a rapper brought out a disc with video or maybe the cover, which had him and at least one maybe 2 staffs on it with him and that's it, they are now almost as neccesary to maintain status for some groups as the mobile phone.

Michelled

>would they not protect your home or protect their owner if they were attacked.<

No except a very rare exception, they are people freindly and would be unlikly to object if someone broke in,put them on the lead and walked off with them.

They were bred to fight to the death and in that context they are a supreme dog fighter in the same way a Border Collie is a supreme herding dog, the Greyhound a supreme sight chaser.

Breed rescues are run by breed lovers and funded from the donations of other breed lovers and responsible breeders.  Many are or started off as part of the breed clubs when a need for resce and welfare for the breed concerned became apparent.

Thoise that churn out substandard pups to anyoen with the money to buy do not contribute or take responsibility for the dgos they breed.  Those belonging to breed clubs are expected to make provision for any of their own breeding that end up needing rehoming.

Ah yes, thats what I always thought, having contributed to one a few times some years ago. It was the way I read your other post the "Guess who" bit, that I thought you were suggesting someone other than the breed clubs funded their rescues.

Someone else posted this web address on here the other day, and when i looked it bought tears to my eye's :-( it really is so sad

As for the proportion of registered versus unregistered dogs of any breed this really does vary according to breed.

Very few unregistered examples of my breed are bred, adn this is probably the saem with most of the numerically small breeds that are generally not well known.

For example an unregistered or second hand dog in my breed has little or no monetary value (hence the need for some puppy producers to sell pups with pseudo papers), whereas in other breeds an unregistered pup is about half the price of a registered one, and in some fashionable breeds there seems to be very little difference in the price and dogs still carry resale value equivalent to that for a pup.

I don't know how th stastistics are arrived at, but of the 6.5 million UK dogs a very high proportion of the 75% that are pedigree are actually registered with the Kennel club.

Around 200,000 dogs are registered with the KC each year, if we take a lifespan of only 12 years that would give you 2.4 million registered dogs out of the 4.8 million said to be pedigree.  Around a third of the total canine population.  Hardly a small insignificant number.

This link give the population figures and proportion of pedigree dogs
http://www.dogstrust.org.uk/press_office/keyinformation/factsandfigures/

and this is the Kennel clubs statement of aproximate annual registrations
http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/registration/welcome.html

Where did you get the 6.5 million national pack figure from? I am pretty sure I saw The Dogs Trust put out 5.5 million, the fact is it can never be known, they did mention some methods they used to get that figure.
There is no way anyone can ever know. This thing about overbreeding staffs, good grief how on earth are The Dogs Trust or anyone else suggesting they go round the estates and get these figures?

I already said very few average dog owners have ever heard of KC or anyone else let alone have the slightest interest in it or papers, they simply want the dog THAT is common thinking. I would say within a three mile radius of here the dog population as at least quadruppled within this past 18 months with Stafs and x breeds acounting for a very great number of that increase.

Please note the post from mid wales, these dogs breed every single season and from the first or second seasons, some die sure cause they are to young, others dont, dont forget these charities like to make out they in the world of dogs.
I say they are nothing to do with the average dog, certainly in this city and looking at some other posts here breeding any dog is just what a lot of people do, by accident with some breeds just for money.

The idea of the average dog owner writing to Dogs Trust or KC to say "Guess what my dogs had pups" is simply not understanding the larger dog world at all.

Back to the Staff breeding problem, I think it will soon decrease of its own accord, over this past 2 years there has been a steady increase in larger dogs ( I prefer not to mention breeds) with mixed breeds in them mainly bred for dog aggression, within another two years I think their popularity will be dominant over staffs.

I know the midlands are showing that pattern, London seems to vary but in general its increasing here, I have heard Glasgow is showing the same trends, I would like to hear comments from other cities on changing patters such as those I have mentioned.

Back to figures, if the dogs trust or brailesses figures of 5.5 to 6.5 million have been arrived at from sort of system I would say that those figures could be doubled by dogs which are not covered by whatever system was used to arrive at those figures and as someone pointed out in another post, heavens knows by how much the Staff population will increase this Xmas, its reasonable to suppose it could double in the cities, its probably one of the most popular wants for young people, very high on the Xmas shopping list.

Brainless,

> Around 200,000 dogs are registered with the KC each year<

You know what brainless, all the regulars blaspheme me as the demon of the dark depths, do you know why? because I blow myths, why because I have a questioning mind and contradict myths brought about by misinformation being passed around as fact and then passed on and on.

OK, I checked to see how many different breeds are on their register, on their site one of their adverts says - "Check out over 180 different breeds of pedigree dog" - it does not say, even approximately, how many are dogs and how many are bitches.

The kennel club figures above work out that every registered pedigree dog would have to have 1,111 pups per year to support the 200,000 figure. I don't know what that suggests to other people but to me I would say the over breeding of Staffs is nothing to the over breeding of pedigree dogs on the KC register.

I throw this question to everyone, based on KC's figures, how many people think KC must be the biggest puppy farm union in the world? Your Spitz must be at it non stop brainless based on KC figures, do you never question anything KC says?

Denis, 180 breeds does not equate to 180 pairs of animals - which is where your figures come from (200,000 / 1,111) 

the KC publishes the annual registration figures. Labradors - the most numerous - are up to around 40,000 annually - some breeds will have a single litter (or even none) in a single years. The average is 1,111 puppies perbreed, not per individual.

I'm no mathematician, but even I can see the huge flaw in your calculations. The 200000 figure is the total from each breed not individual dogs. Breed figures vary from 0-45000+ (Labradors) & while I can't say all are absolutely accurate, I know the figures for my own numerically small breed are.
all the regulars blaspheme me as the demon of the dark depths, do you know why? because I blow myths, why because I have a questioning mind and contradict myths brought about by misinformation being passed around as fact and then passed on and on.

You're not blowing myths, you're talking rubbish :(
Have ever seen a copy of the BRS? Do you even know what it is?

Brainless Quoted KC.

>"Around 200,000 dogs are registered with the KC each year, <

http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/registration/welcome.html

Anyone reading KCs statement could only read it one way, which is:
KC obviously means NEW registrations and those can only be pups from registered parents. That is the only conclusion any reader can understand KCs statement means BECAUSE KC states, " This is an average 'registered' every year."

KC is claiming, and its quite clear, that an average of 200,000 NEW registrations take place each year.

On the same web page KC also says - "there are around 200 breeds of dog "eligible" for Kennel Club registration"

That is very ambiguous "eligible" and actually registered are two different things, KC offers no explanation to the ambiguity which gives any reader their own preference of definition. On another page KC web says "Check out over 180 different breeds of pedigree dog", so I calculated from that figure, KC offers that choice.

Based on the 180 breeds instead of the 200 breed figure mentioned on the other page I calculated:
200,000 / born from 180 KC claimed breeds and that = 1,111 pups per dog born from the 200,000 KC claims to register each year.

It has to be assumed that new registrations are pups = new dogs not existent the year previously. So what's wrong with those figures? 200,000 new registrations MUST come from its registered dogs so all that can be done on KCs info is to split the figures in the way I did.

One of my points that it is financially deprived tiny little charities such as this Staff rescue which are bearing the brunt of the problems, it is tiny little charities like this which have a better picture of the true state of the breed and it is tiny little charities like this staffie one which have real life practicle experience rather some office worker in Mayfair making figures look good, but which make no real sense at all, to boost its image and take the glory, to the unthinking few.

Anwen

>Have ever seen a copy of the BRS?<

I think if you read one of my other posts you will realise I have European bloodline dogs, I assume the BRS is breed registration book or something, KC does by no means register the majority of dogs here, GSDs have been born in hundreds of thousands here without reg papers, the only people who are really interested in registering dogs are those who wish to show and they are such a small group they dont count in national figures.

This Staff rescue is dealing with the ordinary dog representative of the majority of dogs but these which have hit an all time low in their own lives,such as it ever was. Not just a few people who have a pastime of showing dogs and who usualy have little contact outside that immediate social group/show world.

I assume the BRS is breed registration book or something
I'll take that as a "no" then?

I too have "European bloodline dogs" with the documentation to prove it, but I don't quite see what that has to do with anything.

It has to be assumed that new registrations are pups = new dogs not existent the year previously. Actually, the figure also includes imported dogs, granted a fraction of the total but important none the less.

200,000 / born from 180 KC claimed breeds and that = 1,111 pups per dog born from the 200,000 KC claims to register each year. 
So what's wrong with those figures?

As has already been said, what's wrong is that it's an average over all breeds, not per dog.

It has already been demonstated that at least half of all purbred dogs are registered with the kennel club, hardly an insignificant minority.

The figures for the dog population are extrapolated from Petfood and equipment sales, surveys etc, and are not that inaccurate, as lets face it the Pet food and other companies need to know the size of ther market.

>KC is claiming, and its quite clear, that an average of 200,000 NEW registrations take place each year.

Yes, approximately 200,000 new registrations each year. From about 180 breeds. That's an average of 1,111 new registrations per breed. Simple arithmetic so far, and no ambiguity. :)

>Based on the 180 breeds instead of the 200 breed figure mentioned on the other page I calculated:

200,000 / born from 180 KC claimed breeds and that = 1,111 pups per dog born from the 200,000 KC claims to register each year.
Yep - no problem with those figures.

>It has to be assumed that new registrations are pups = new dogs not existent the year previously. So what's wrong with those figures? 200,000 new registrations MUST come from its registered dogs so all that can be done on KCs info is to split the figures in the way I did.

No - you're claiming that each individual must have 1,111 puppies each year

>every registered pedigree dog would have to have 1,111 pups per year to support the 200,000 figure.

which is clearly an impossibility!

The KC will register puppies from bitches between the ages of 1 and 8 years. For the purposes of statistics it can be assumed that the dog/bitch split born is 50:50. That's 100,000 bitches registered each year. Multiply that by 7 (for the number of eligible breeding years for each bitch) and that's a total of 700,000 potential breeding bitches available at any one time.

Over all breeds the average litter size is considered to be 8 puppies. Potentially, therefore, there could be 5,600,000 puppies registered each year. However overall it's only a small proportion of these bitches who are ever bred from - thank goodness!

OK your maths start to make more sense then the way KC puts itself and my maths beyond basiscs is very poor to useless.

So 700,000 available breeding bitches at anyone time. KC states 250,000 new regs per annum. The only way I can calculate that is 700,000 / by 250,000 = 2,500 pups per breeding bitch per annum, that's based on KCs figures, the way you worked out the maths made sense to me.

It raises the question what on earth kind of dogs are being registered at KC, is there some kind of interplanetary stuff going on no one knows about?

>The only way I can calculate that is 700,000 / by 250,000 = 2,500 pups per breeding bitch per annum,

No, you've added another 50,000 onto the annual registartion figues for a start.

700,000 breeding bitches producing 200,000 puppies. That's a simple sum giving an average of 0.28 puppies per breeding bitch per year.

I have no idea what you mean by interplanetary stuff - it's pre-GCSE/O-level arithmetic.

Still wrong. 2500 pups times 700 000 breeding bitches gave me so many zeros when caluclating it that I can't even work it out -it is MILLIONS:  It is 700 000 breeding bitches divided by the 250 000 registered pups, which per bitch equals just 2.8 pups! I.e. quite correct as not all bitches are bred from and litters will often have far more pups.

700000 divided by 250000 is 28 not not 2500.
Congratulations Alan, you're the first person I've ever met who's even worse at maths than me (I was 35 before I managed to pass O level maths :o
I am, however, more logical than you. :D

If the average litter size is 6 then 250000 divided by 6 gives the number of breeding bitches needed to produce 250000 puppies = 41,666 bitches. Multiply that by 7 (available breeding years per bitch) = 287000. As a percentage of your 700000, that's around 20% of the available breeding bitch population, which for most breeds would seem about right.

>there are around 200 breeds of dog "eligible" for Kennel Club registration

This simply means that the KC recognises that number of breeds as being 'pure'. Crossbreeds aren't eligible for registration on the breed register.

>Check out over 180 different breeds of pedigree dog

This is on the Discover Dogs page. That's how many of the recognised breeds will be represented at the exhibition.

Only between 10 and 150 of my randy spitz bred a year, been around 120 or 20 litters for quite some years.

If there are aproximately 2.4 million pedigree dogs alive of 0 to 12 years of age that would give you 1.2million of breeding age (two to 8 years). 

I would say that only aproximately 20% of pedigree dogs are bred from giving you 240,000 breeding animals, or possibly 120,000 litters, lets say that people don't breed every year for six litters but average 3 litters per bitch, that would still gie you 60,000 litters, so the figure of 200,000 pups registered a year is under 4 pups a litter.

Guessing here, but I don't see where you find the figure of 200,000 annual registrations as being unsuportable even with modest breeding of the pedigree population.

Goldmali

>Still wrong. 2500 pups times 700 000 breeding bitches<

I did not say times = x I said divide = /.

Jeanigenie

>700,000 breeding bitches producing 200,000 puppies. That's a simple sum giving an average of 3½ puppies per breeding bitch per year<

Well that makes more sense and if the number of bitches which actually breed was halved to 350,000 then the average 7 pups might not be to far out of what a lot of bitches might carry.

The problems still showing is the figures of breeds the KC is quoting, 180 to 200 gives a discrepancy of 20 breeds, then other variables such as how many sold to pet owners are ever bred from, if an average of say 3 bitches from every litter were sold - the combinations of variables are endless.

But, it still relates back to the figures estimated as those dogs which make up the national pack. There is no way only registered dogs can be said to be even the 1/3rd of dogs making up the national pack figure, by far and away the average person simply have no interest in wheather a dog is registered or not, they simply want either 'a dog' or 'that kind of dog'.

Another factor excluded from the equation and related to the staff over breeding is the seemingly fast growing trend for these mixed breeds generally getting the title of 'doodle this or doodle that', once those who have, in recent years, learned to make an income from dogs they will very quickly turn to and promote this kind of dog, low investment, no hassle of shows etc and what to them is an income.

What both the staff breeding and the current 'doodle' breeding is highlighting is the fact which I have pointed out often enough, people are simply no longer interested or even know anything about if a dog is registered or not, most have never heard of KC. The clear trend is away from KC registered dogs, that fact is quite clear.

Brainless

>Guessing here, but I don't see where you find the figure of 200,000 annual registrations as being unsuportable even with modest breeding of the pedigree population. <

Well the way I worked out the above was if 50% of registered bitches bred. The fact is that there is no way any national pack figure can be worked out, you said in another post about young guys from some estate or other having staffs.

I would suggest to go ask a few of them at random what is KC, is your dog registered etc, you'll simply get a blank, non of them would know what you are talking about, many have their own shows and events and your perception of dogs is as alien to them as theirs is to you.

That will soon enough be happening with the 'doodle' types, to popularise them, saw another yesterday and to be honest it was a nice fit dog with a good temprament, really nice.

>I would suggest to go ask a few of them at random what is KC, is your dog registered etc, you'll simply get a blank

Yes, lots of them have no idea what breed their dog is! Obviously there are more crossbreeds and mongrels than there are purebreds, and about half the purebreds aren't registered.

>The fact is that there is no way any national pack figure can be worked out,

However they all need to eat, and the national dog population figures are usually estimated by food manufacturers by how much food is bought per year. Vaccine manufacturers will also know how many doses of vaccine are sold each year.

Jeaniegeni

>However they all need to eat, and the national dog population figures are usually estimated by food manufacturers by how much food is bought per year. <

Oh they cant even get close to being a reliable source, a tin of chum for lots dogs but I don't think many people go much beyond mixing scraps of anything with the dogs food.

Vaccinations are simply non existent in many areas, not just that I would say that in most areas of London, except some of the plush areas, dogs on a lead in the main streets is less than 50% and kids riding a bike in the road, any kind off road, with a dog off lead running alongside is an increasingly common sight.

In fact on that subject, I was talking to a dog owner in the supermarket yesterday eve, and some kind of large mastiff type jumped her Mexican hairless within this past week. She let go of the lead and the dogs ended up in a busy main road, the large put its mouth round the Mex, with the Mex squealing, but did not close on it, large dog with young guy, off lead of course and she had to scream at the guy before he went to grab his dog, if it had closed it would have bitten it in half.

To add, the type of dog owning and perceptions most people here are talking about is an old type of dog owning and completly out of touch with contempory preceptions and trends as far as many cities goes.

>dogs on a lead in the main streets is less than 50% and kids riding a bike in the road, any kind off road, with a dog off lead running alongside is an increasingly common sight.

I'm not sure what that has anything to do with estimating the national dog population?

>jumped her Mexican hairless

Wow! I've only ever seen one of those at DD. They're extremely rare in this country. Chinese Cresteds are more usual.