<< I find I have to explain things to you which I have been told by someone who used to show.>>

Sigh!   Dennis, Dennis, Dennis - why on earth do you not check the validity of what people tell you - you are soo gullible.

To confirm what Jeangenie and Brainless have told you - two puppies, born 05.11.03.  Entered Champ Show 02.06.04, qualified for Crufts 2005.   Shown at Crufts 2005 at age 16 months, puppy dog placed 2nd in Special Yearling class.   Check validity if you wish - go to fossedata Australian Shepherds.

I only write what I can validate.

Margot

Yes thats puppy or yearlings-which in any case I did not know.
But I was talking about adult dogs attending crufts with a potential of best of breed and best in show (cufts champion).
It is the space (in time) between the shows they (adults) have to attend (on the assumption they qualify for the next show).
What I am not sure of is at what age they start doing the rounds, as adults, to get to crufts with the potential of Crufts champion of champions, he never mentioned young dogs that I remember, maybe you should listen to the right people, he was there, so was I I saw it, dog aged about 4 by that time.

A puppy can go Best of Breed and even Best In Show.  Not unusual in some early maturing breeds.  So it is conceivable that a dog aged between 9 months and 12 years could win Best In Show at Crufts.

A dog winning at Crufts does not have to be a champion either as that may have been their first Challenge Certificate and it is quite possible though not probable that a dog winning Best In Show at Crufts never gains it's UK title (more likely if it is a foreign dog whose owner doesn't want to campaign it here, as it can take years to gain a title).

As there are qualifying Championship shows from January to December a dog may already be qualified for the next Crufts before the cureent one has taken place (as Crufts is in March) or may not qualify until the last opportunity at a show in December.

The puppy that is placed 1st in Junior or Special Yearling competes for BOB - if it won, it could then compete for Best in Group, could then go on to compete for Best in Show - so there could one day, be a Crufts Best in Show aged 9 months.

Please Dennis, make sure of your facts before posting on here - its very tiresome having to correct such basic errors.

> with the potential of Crufts champion of champions <

Is this some new award then ?

There are only two dogs each year that can become Crufts Champions(ie win a "Championship @ Crufts) & they are not show dogs but the winners of the only Championships on offer @ Crufts & those are the winners of the Dog & Bitch Obedience Championships-BTW X breeds have been Crufts Champions !

All the other competitions are not Championships & there are no Crufts Champion of Champions-the ultimate winner of Best in Show @ Crufts is simply that Best in Show. There have been winners who were not champions & at least one who never became one !

You really do need to get your facts correct Dennis You obviously know nothing about dog shows or Crufts

If your dog qualifies at the first Championship show of the year then it will be 14 months until the Crufts they qualify for, though they could also qualify in December at the last sghow for the folliwing March only 3 months away.

Pups under 9 months cannot go to Crufts because to qualify they would have had to be 6 months by the December previous.  For this reason to avoid having dogs of only a small age range Crufts puppy classes are special and allow dogs of 9 to 14 months.

Dogs who win certain awards qualify for life and do not have to requalify each year.

Have you seen my post above, I was talking about adults, he never mentioned what went befor that dog was adult BUT to get there with Crfts champion of champions as potential, the combinations of what you say and what he was talking about as adult dogs would make it probably around 4 years in total minimum before a dog could be eleigable for champion of champions, is that close to correct?

So really it could only take a few months to get to cruft's in theory.
if that's the case I am--not sure what he meant, I cant remember him talking about puppy showing or young dog showing.
I do remember him saying it took two years to get there but he seemed to be talking not about just himself but anyone in general, I think he was saying in context of the dog being a breed champion as well though, possibly he was talking about the combination, does that sound right?

Why don't you just ask him what he meant?  

Im not talking about theory - I'm talking facts - two of my puppies did qualify for crufts at just under 7 months old, and were shown there at 16 months old.  

This achievement is by no means unique either! - to us, yes, but not to others.

Well if he failed to qualify one year then he might have had to wait two years before getting a qualifying awrd.  soem breeds have very high numbers and if a person doesn't show much or is unlucky they might miss getting a third place in their class.

>So really it could only take a few months to get to cruft's in theory

Not only in theory - in practice too. A dog can become a champion at 12 months and 1 day, because it needs to win one of the three CCs after the age of 12 months. It has then qualified for Crufts for life. Your 'friend' doesn't know what he's talking about, I'm afraid.

That is what happened with my bitch, she was made up at the age of 12 months and 4 days.

The shortest qualification time it can take to get to Crufts would be from winning BIS or BPIS (best in Show or Best Puppy in Show) at an open show in early January, just before close of entry for the Crufts about to occur in March of that year.  You could therefore feasibly be at Crufts just 2 months after qualifying (although only a very limited number of shows will occur at this time.  However, dozens and dozens will qualify at LKA in December the preceding year, giving a 3 month + time lapse.  Any dog qualified for Crufts has the possibility to go on to BoB and thence to BIS (as previosuly been posted, no such thing as "Champion of Champions").  And age does not a top winning dog at Crufts make.  My own boy was RBIS (ie 2nd to Best in Show) at Crufts aged just 20 months old.  His first show was LKA 2 years before, at just 6 months old, therefore his trip to the very top was a period of 14 months.  He retired from the show ring following Crufts, still under 3 years old, and spent the rest of his life a much loved pet - as he was during his show career.  He was the epitome of a show dog, and also a wonderful dog to own as a pet.  Being one does not preculde being the other.

It would appear that your informant is a little out on his facts, figures and opinions of showing and show dogs ( as demonstrated in the figures given in my previous reply in this thread)
bye
Gwen

I thnk you would agree Gwen that a Top Show dog has to be a supreme and well mannered 'Pet' he/she will be travelling many miles with their owner/handler, staying together in hotels, practicing the show ring procedure.

Being Groomed and excersised, bathed and trimmed (where appropriate) in fact forming a very close relationship and bond of trust and co-operation with each other, happily coping with crowds of strange people and dogs, and accepting complete strangers examination. 

That calls for a very well rounded companion, more than is expected of the average Pet dog..

Absolutely, Brainless.  When you get to that level there are all sorts of extras to be taken in the dogs stride!  Dexter behaved impeccably during TV  appearances (even when chased across the Richard and Judy Show stage by a Weim!),  in hotels all over the UK, in Taxis in London, in  lifts - even on an escalator.  You don't get a dog winning that much, and at that level, who does not love life! 
bye
Gwen

>if that's the case I am--not sure what he meant, I cant remember him talking about puppy showing or young dog showing.  I do remember him saying it took two years to get there

Where does he live? Maybe he walked  ;)

There is no such thing as a Crufts "Champion of Champions" Dennis - I would have thought that you, of all people would know that!

The top title at Crufts is "BEST IN SHOW".

I'm glad someone said that it really annoys me when people say "Champion of Champions" as you don't have to be a champion to be there.

and what about this,

An owner takes her  16 month old bitch to her  first championship show (first for both owner and bitch ;) ) and qualifies for Crufts!  Then at the second Champ show the bitch gets her first CC and BOB at twenty months old - qualifies for Crufts for life.  The Bitch went to another 11 Ch shows and gained her title, consistently placed in 11 out of 12 CH shows and this was a complete newcomer, both to the breed and showing, and yes the bitch took first in her class at Crufts too :D :D :D

I've always found the public perception of Crufts interesting (the media have a lot to answer for here ;) ) it is a prestigious show, as you have to qualify to get there, but the places and prizes gained there are no higher qualification than would be found at any other Ch show in the UK ;) However winning Best in Show at Crufts must feel a little special :)

Lokis Mum

>Why don't you just ask him what he meant?<

Cause I haven seen him for around 25 years, no where he is or anything about him these days.

Brainless

>soem breeds have very high numbers and if a person doesn't show much or is unlucky they might miss getting a third place in their class.<

There were supposed to be around 40,000 in UK at that time but no idea how that figure was bandied about or how many were showing then.

Jeanigenie

>Your 'friend' doesn't know what he's talking about, I'm afraid.<

Strange how you presume you know so much about people of whom you have never heard of and do not even know who I mean. Let us al into your secret, MI5 will snap someone up with your talent, well into a 6 or even 7 figure income PA, I am sure.
As it happens his dog was probably the highest qualified ever of its breed, by UK standards, but not qualified at international level.

Lokismum

>There is no such thing as a Crufts "Champion of Champions"<

jennybasenji

>I'm glad someone said that it really annoys me when people say "Champion of Champions"<

Those titles come from TV, its on the news every year as well as a program (I think) for the winner and they always as long as I can remember call it 'champion of champions' or 'supreme champion', I heard it referred to as supreme champion quite a few times this year alone, as well as other years.
One thing one of the commentators said this year was that it was world champion, I knew that was not true because it is not an international breed title.

LokisMum

> I would have thought that you, of all people would know that!<

Why would I know that? I have no reason to know that.

I was especially interested in that dog because they guy made a worthwhile contribution to the working side of the breed at the time, if he had not I would have had no interest and the showing he did gave me a passing view of showing in UK but I did not get any in depth interest because of lack of health tests etc.

I support international championship shows for working breeds because of the stringent health and working or equivalent fit for breeding tests almost all the working breed dogs must go through before they can compete at international level, as well as stringent conformation tests, right down to a tape measure.

For the record, the confirmation tests are specifically to establish the confirmations are the healthiest known for the dog to carry out its working role with out causing medical problems and the working tests include another stringent, in depth, temperament study, they are basically designed to eliminate dogs from the breeding program, not just pass them if they are - "not quite as good as the next BUT It'll do".

Back to Lokis_mum
&#61656; I would have thought that you, of all people would know that!<

If I was brought up with show dogs maybe but I was working dogs since I was 10, by 13 I earned all my pocket money (and much more) for my first away from home holidays at Butlins and kept that up till I left school and then home.

We also used what you call clickers, nothing new about them at all, they had a different name and were made of tin but I cannot remember what the name was.  The Teddy Boy dress dates the photos.

No wonder you yearn for me Lokis_mum, they called me 'Little Elvis' hahaha, that must be why you seem to idolise me in most of your posts, fancy a weekend at Butlins?.

http://www.photobox.co.uk/album/2084694

>Those titles come from TV,

My word, are you really so gullible that you believe general TV commentators and journalists rather than those in the business? That explains a lot.

>the confirmation tests are specifically to establish the confirmations

As you're so keen on the use of language, you'll realise that you mean 'conformation. ;)

Jeanigenie

>conformation.<

Thanks, I always had trouble with 'conforming'.
Al-x

> Those titles come from TV, its on the news every year as well as a program (I think) for the winner and they always as long as I can remember call it 'champion of champions' or 'supreme champion', I heard it referred to as supreme champion quite a few times this year alone, as well as other years. <

Actually they are titles coined by Pedigree Chum

There's a Supreme Championship once a year only it's for Sheepdogs not show dogs !

Tut Tut Dennis come on get into the 21st Century

Moonmaden

>Actually they are titles coined by Pedigree Chum<

Actually pedigree chum should tell the broadcasters that it is their title, if it is used in Chum adds- (and I don't know if it is or is not) - then you can assume someone might get a 'tip' somewhere down the line for subliminal advertising.

Moonmaden

>Tut Tut Dennis come on get into the 21st Century<

OK, Pontins for you and me, lokis_mum can stay in mouldy old Butlins, how's that?

:rolleyes:

They use it to make the dogs that the owners claim are fed on PC superior The BBC haven't used the Supreme Ch title for a long time since they had commentators on the breed side that actually know about dog shows

Holiday Camps ? what have they got to do with the anything Dennis ? Can't be long before you leave here again you are getting boring now

start the 2 year journey (I was once told by a show person)to get to crufts

May be it took him that long to find a show with only 3 dogs entered in his class so that his poor dog could qualify?  Please don't say that you know that this dog was worthy of being a Champion of Champions because it is obvious from your posts that you have no idea what the dog show world and breeding to a breed standard involves.

As it happens his dog was probably the highest qualified ever of its breed, by UK standards,

If that's the case then he doesn't combine this fame with communication skills, because he hasn't passed on true facts to you Denis!  Or maybe it's your comprehension skills that are lacking?  Oh, so many possibilities, and we'll never know! :rolleyes:
But thanks for the laugh to start my day.  Always good to make people laugh isn't it?

Don't think much of the chat-up lines, I'm afraid Dennis - the words long barge pole spring to mind!

<<I did not get any in depth interest because of lack of health tests etc>>

If you had bothered to keep up to date (I know nothing of the show scene 25 years ago - I wasn't involved in those days) you would have known now that breed societies do insist upon health tests - hip/elbow scoring, eye testing, BAER testing, testing for von willebrands disease, etc etc etc - different tests for different breeds.

Why don't you use the SEARCH facility available to you on Champdogs - click on the search button and you will see what is available to you - and who knows - you might acquire more up to date information.

Ut vos reperio vos es in lacuna , is est maximus ut memor ut subsisto fossura!

Val

>Please don't say that you know that this dog was worthy of being a Champion of Champions <

I did not say that, I said he told me that it took 2 years to get to crufts

>>BUT--I have been thinking this morning if he did say it took 2 years to get to crufts I might be wrong from what's been said here. What he might have said was that he said it took 2 years to make a dog a breed champion, but that doesn't sound right either.

Val quoted me:
>>>>As it happens his dog was probably the highest qualified ever of its breed, by UK standards.
And then said:  > If that's the case then he doesn't combine this fame with communication skills, because he hasn't passed on true facts to you Denis!<

So ..
1. you do not know who the person was.
2. You do not know what dog it was.
3. You do not know what breed it was.
4. You do not know what years were involved.

5. So how do anything about either the person or his dog, or what he told me.

I might well have got it wrong about the two years he mentioned, as I said, it might have been to get it a breed champion as an adult after puppy winnings, I am not sure. But for your comments to have any validity of any kind you need to answer Q1-5, above.

Val

>because it is obvious from your posts that you have no idea what the dog show world and breeding to a breed standard involves.<

Wrong, what you know as the show world is the standards of showing outside fit for breeding tests, at national and not international level, I know what international breed standards and tests are for my own breed, do you know what they are for yours? I say you do not, if I am wrong then you will be able to give some idea of the fit for breeding test and the lowest possible qualification your breed must have as a requirement for an international title.

Apart from that, I already said my only interest in the persons showing achievements was because of his contribution and that dogs contribution to working fogs of the breed. What you call shows are literally not recognised at international levels and standards (if you have a working breed) and if I did want show dogs I would only accept real standards as laid down by FCI for the breed, a guarantee of health and some potential working or sports ability with a fair % of a litter and a health structure and endurance to do either.
And dont forget the obvious question, No5 above.

Lokis Mum.

>If you had bothered to keep up to date (I know nothing of the show scene 25 years ago - I wasn't involved in those days) you would have known now that breed societies do insist upon health tests - hip/elbow scoring, eye testing, BAER testing, testing for von willebrands disease, etc etc etc - different tests for different breeds.<

I already said that as far as UK showing goes I never got into it, I was interested in that one dog but I did not like just showing as its done in UK which is why I never go to shows, dogs need action and stimulation not just shows.

Even so, are you saying that it is now compulsory for all breeds to be tested before they can be entered for KC shows?

If thats true you have REALLY surprised me big time, some people wanted it but that was personal only, not compulsory, is it a KC ruleing for dogs to be shown at their shows, if so Brit Bulldogs will ceretainly become extinct as far as shows go?

If you read Lokis Mums quote properly instead of just cut and pasting it you would see she says breed societies insist.  Many have this in their code of conduct which members are obliged to observe or be barred from the club.  The KC, however, do recommend that certain tests are carried out for certain breeds.

Isobele

>she says breed societies insist. <

I have never heard of breed societies, breed clubs yes, breed societies no.

Isobele
Many have this in their code of conduct which members are obliged to observe or be barred from the club. 

So are you saying it is not compulsory and judged by breed experts? Does that mean they cannot show under KC regulations if they are banned?

Isobele

>The KC, however, do recommend that certain tests are carried out for certain breeds.<

The KC is the breeds registration club, it is the breed registration clubs which are responsible for fit for breeding licences.

As far as I know and untill Lokis_mum clarifies breeding under KC rules is totally unrestricted and one of the main reasons the UK KC licensed show are the only breed registration club not recognised at international level and why I think loosers of UK shows should be called 'Showdoodles'.

Where do you get the idea that the British Kennel club is not recognised by other countiries Govening bodies.

The guardians of a breed are the breed societies/Clubs, and the Kennel club has instructed them to have a code of ethics applicable to that breed, by which responsible breeders abide.

As far as I am aware in Germany for example GSDs breedign rules are governed by their breed society/club.

>I have never heard of breed societies, breed clubs yes, breed societies no

We have already established you don't know much about showing

>the UK KC licensed show are the only breed registration club not recognised at international level

The KC is the only British registry that is recognised at international level.

Jeanigenie

>The KC is the only British registry that is recognised at international level.<

I am not sure exactly what you mean by that - this is the way it reads to me so if you mean something different then clarify.

I understand you to mean that the actual registery (database) is accepted that by FCI that those dogs have been registered here in UK by KC.

If that is what you mean then I do not doubt, but, that is not what I am saying, a database of dogs is nothing to do with showing it is a database of dogs some shown  most not, is that what you mean a database?

Again, this is what I said:

>the UK KC licensed show are the only breed registration club not recognised at international level<

To clarify that, which I should not need to do, no UK breed of working dog can be entered into an international title show unless the breed registration is recognised at international show championship level.

The breed registration club here is KC and it is not recognised by FCI which is the governing body of international titles, one of many reasons it is not recognised is because anyone can breed without restrictions (already mentioned) and there are other requirements to do with with working qualifications.

As a point to note Eire has been accepted by FCI within this past 3 years, some of their working breeds can compete for international titles. If you go to the member countries page and then scroll to the meber list at the bottom anyone can see UK (KC) is not recognised at international level, the dogs simply have not passed the stringent tests to international standards, some of which I have pointed out, no one reading this post with...say a GSD can show for an international title unless their dog has passed breed registration club tests recognised FCI and the international show fraternity.
http://www.fci.be/members.asp?lang=en&sel=1

Denis, I really don't understand what you're saying.

The facts are that the Kennel Club is recognised by (but not affiliated to) the FCI, and recognised as official by all national Kennel Clubs. I believe I'm right in saying that other national kennel clubs will not register a British-bred animal unless it is previously registered with our Kennel Club.

>a database of dogs is nothing to do with showing

A dog which isn't registered with the Kennel Club cannot be shown at other than companion shows (which are purely entertainment and carry no prestige), so this database is inextricably entwined with showing.

I am sorry Denis but the FCI certainly do recognise UK titles and regisration.  I have shown my champion bitch at FCI shows and her title was acknowledged and she gained a CACIB t6owards her International title, but I have not shown her abroad since, our male on the other hand will be entitled to his title once he gains his last qualifying award on the basis that he is a champion her, if he were not no matter how many certificates he won he could not claim the FCI International title without his UK one.  A freinds dog has his Belgian and Dutch titles, but can't have the FCI one as he is not a UK champion, hardly seems that the FCI are not respecting pur titles, when one of therirs is dependant on a British dog haveing one.

>As it happens his dog was probably the highest qualified ever of its breed, by UK standards.

Perhaps you could tell us what breed this dog was. I'm sure we'll remember it, if it was that good.

The dogs name was Hillmora the Explorer, a dobermann, the reason I said he was probably one of the highest qualified of his breed was because he was
(a) a breed champ
(b) a TDex, I am not sure if he went on to PD he might have done.

It was because he had both qualifications he was probably one of the top here in UK, however, those working tests are not recognised at international level.
I am not sure what year he actualy became breed show champ but I guess by around 1978 and certainly by 1980.

How strange that he can't be found on a google search. If he was that great he'd be mentioned in many references. But not to come up even once ... are you sure you have the name right?

Kerioak has books listing all Dobermann champions. I'm sure she'll be able to help.
:)

Jeanigenie

>How strange that he can't be found on a google search. If he was that great he'd be mentioned in many references<

Hahahaha.....you clutch at the flimsiest straws,your a strange character an no mistake, go to the link below and type hillmora the explorer into your find facilty, I got it from guess what-google, you are not a very reliable source of information it seems.

http://www.dobermannvereniging.nl/html/stamboom.php?f=wees2&waarbij=boek%20=29

Yea thats the one, not much info there just a sketchely completed pedigree.

That's a helpful link, thank you. No mention of him being a champion, though. Do you know how many CCs he had? It must have been a lot to be the 'most highly qualified' dobermann.

I found a reference to him on a Dutch (I think :)) pedigree data base, no mention of him being a champion though.  But are dual qualified dogs that unusual in dobermanns?  It certainly would not be my definition of the "highest qualified" dog in showing terms that generally refers to the one with the most challenge certificates.

Jeanigenie

>That's a helpful link, thank you. No mention of him being a champion, though. Do you know how many CCs he had?<

I have no idea what CCs he had, it was his working side I was interested in, quite a phenomenal dog on the working side but a bit to heavy, loss of agility.

Another Hillmora of the time that was a champ was the Corsair but he was never worked, the owner had no interest in work, the breeder of the Hillmora prefix was Ben Johnson, Norfolk, long since dead, the father of the explorer was Linhoff  the Maestro, Linhoff was the prefix, some good working dogs from the line. ALL long since lost here.

Isabel

>found a reference to him on a Dutch (I think ) pedigree data base, no mention of him being a champion though. <

His champ status is easy to check, just call KC and go back to the years I said, you can find exactly what champ status he had.

Isabel

>But are dual qualified dogs that unusual in dobermanns?<

As far as I know at that point in time and for many many years after, maybe even now, non have ever had the duel titles.

In international showing it is compulsory for a Dobermann AND many other breeds to have Schutzhund 1or they cannot be entered for international show championships.

If it does not get SchH 1 they can only be shown at national levels and they are not seen as much at all in Europe, sort of a beginners title people don't talk about much. But shows are not my thing anyway.

It's very strange that when you type "ch hillmora the corsair" into google, you get plenty of results. If, however, you type in "ch hillmora the explorer" ... nothing! This suggests that he wasn't a champion ...

why is it strange?

Because great dogs get mentioned in publications, which would show up in searches.

Obviously not all, make no difference as he is on KC database as well some archive club books of that period.
As it happens one of my dogs probably achieved the highest recognitions for working real life (non sport) acheivements of any breed of dog in this country, he will not come up either as they are working acheivements nothing to any KC events, I think the breeder registered the litter, I never registered him with KC though, 1984-95.

>he will not come up either as they are working acheivements nothing to any KC events,

Do people in the "working" world never write articles?