I've just learned of a new "designer breed" The Bullmation :( Has anyone else heard of this before, and why cant these people stop doing this :(

I'm going to state the obvious (Its a Dalmation x Bulldog)

I saw a new one today as well, Roxxers.It was an ad for Rottweiler/Boxer crosses £500 each eek!!!

Fools and their money are soon parted.

That's the thing,there seems to be lot's of these fools buying these dogs at a high price at that.

There's loads of them,people keep crossing different breeds and putting name's on them.I'm sure there accidental breedings most of the time.

I thought traditional bulldogs mixed with anything were called Victorian Bulldogs.

im surprised there arnt millions of german collies as the ammount of gsd x collies is unreal, it seems to be the oddest crosses that get the funny names. I've seen some really stupid ones, more fool anyone that pays more than £50-£100 for one!

Hmm have to agree to disagree here, there are many purpose bred Cross breeds, including those used by the GDBA!

There are many x breeds that are extremely successful in Obedience and Working Trials for example that have been produced deliberately for the qualities that the breeder wanted. 

The famous Coltrievers and Melnola affixes spring to mind, the latter with 4 x WT Ch in one litter and the former with numerous Obedience Tickets.

GSD x BC is a common cross and one of the most famous WT Ch of all time was one and some others have also won CCs.

I doubt they purchasers thought they were foolish when they bought them and I expect they would have found them cheap at twice the price ;)

That is a bit diffeerent as they were bred for their parents working traits in that particular field regardless of theri breed, and I suspect that soem breeds compliment rather better than others, or have similar traits anyway..

there are some very good Ret x BCs, GSDs X BCs,poodle x BCs, ASDx BCs, all doing brilliantly in obedience.ALOT in the higher classes too.

Jonty iv'e seen the same 2 breeds advertised as boxweilers.

Huskamutes are catching on all over then net too...

I think it's mad paying all that money for a cross breed, fools and their money are easily parted right enough, what's the matter with going to the dog home or NCDL if you choose to have a cross breed, poor wee things are crying out for a home. And it would maybe discourage the money mad people from breeding such things as labs and poodles.!!!!

I can't believe there are people who would actually fall for these money grabbing loons. According to an article on the net, some people are considering these crosses to be "rare breeds"!

I agree with jamjar, there are dogs needing homes in rescues all over the place. Why breed two pedigree dogs just for a silly name?!

i cant understand why people get SO upset over the silly name thing?its always on here,"oh silly name blah blah blah"

i think its MORE of a problem ,re health tests,re false claims,re puppy farming, that SOME breeders say about their crosses.

it dosent even really bother me about the high prices,if something is WORTH £1000 (market value,ie what people WILL pay!!) then id not sell it for £300!!!!!!

Oh Boy! What next! :-(

Without taking sides -
I would like to know why people are against people having the right to chose? Most of this and many other threads give the appearance of a group of facists at work, you must do as we say never mind your own personal needs, I can see no other logic to it except arrogance especialy as those who show that attitude have probably never seen one of these dogs in the first place, who says they are unhealthy and established breeds are not?
The british GSD is like a walking advert for lets deliberatly breed HD and the bulldog, oh now there is a dog, they have to have cesarians to give birth, they have appaling breathing problems, they go blind, cannot run and a whole host of distressing (to the dog) problems.
Not one single person is mentioning anything about them and a whole load of other things, that strikes me and proably others who dont bother commenting, thinking the adverse comments lack thought and genuine concern, I have seen nothing here showing genuine concern for breeds which quite literaly should have been bred out long ago because of painful, lifelong health problems and which are only bred for human vanity, money and personal obscure reasons.

The logic to it is:

breeding dogs (or any other animal) is not just a matter of putting a male and female together and letting nature take its course, there are risks involved.  If you look at a lot of the standard breeds reputable breeders are trying to breed out a number of problems in the breeds eg hip and eye problems in Labs and Goldies.  They do this by not breeding from dogs that have high hip scores etc.  The people who are creating 'new' breeds are likely to be in it for the money not for the sake of the dogs, they are not going to be particulary bothered about breeding from healthy dogs. 

Yes people have a choice but anyone buying from these people may well be landing themselves with a financial timebomb wrt vets fees etc.

Yes people get very passionate about breeds etc but mainly because they know what can happen and care about their dogs. 

I totally agree with you about some of the breeds you mention but just because mistakes have been made in the past is that any reason to carry on doing it in the future?

Personally my concern is that the people doing this sort of thing are not likely to have either the dogs or the buyers best interests at heart especially if this is a deliberate breeding.

Steve

Anyone who beleives there will be the slightest improvement here in UK is simply refusing to accept the UKs standards, or lack of them. The breed registration club, KC, is not and will never be recognised at international level, the hereditory disorders is one of the reasons.
All breed registration clubs in Europe have breeding licence tests (vary from breed to breed) and if the dogs dont pass - finito, no breeding licence which means any pups cannot be registered as pedigree dogs, that is all over Europe not just the odd country (well except UK breed registration club, KC).
Typical example of NORMAL European standards is at the link below, that is the German GSD breed registration clubs guidlines on how their own minmum hip scores are arrived at, apart from hip scores the dogs go through many other extensive tests before being considered fit for breeding.
http://www.schaeferhund.de/sv_start_english.htm

There is nothing to suggest that mixed breeds are less healthy in the UK than non-mixed breeds apart from that GSDs with a pedigree here are in the monority of GSDs in the country.

I'm in no position to comment on the KC effectiveness or otherwise, but surely the fact that the rest of Europe take breeding so seriously is another indication that random cross breeding of dogs for profit is not a good thing and should not be acceptable? 

My personal concern with this is (as I've already stated) that these people are likely to be breeding for the money and are not really concerned about either the dogs or the future owners.  Yes there is no reason why crosses should be less healthy but if the breeder is just in it for the money there is no incentive to make sure that the original breeding pair are healthy.

Steve

Excellent points.

>I'm in no position to comment on the KC effectiveness or otherwise, but surely the fact that the rest of Europe >take breeding so seriously is another indication that random cross breeding of dogs for profit is not a good thing >and should not be acceptable?

Yes, and here's a good example. In Sweden you HAVE to be a member of the KC if you intend to show. You cannot enter a show  without being a KC member, nor can you register puppies or anything. Therefore if you want to be involved in dogs in any other way than as a pure pet, you must be a KC member. If you are found to DELIBERATELY have bred a litter of crossbred pups, you will have your membership cancelled.

Another example of how strongly the Swedish KC feels about crossbreeds (which used to be extremely rare in Sweden but now are designer there as well) is obedience champions. Rightly or wrongly (I think there's good arguments for both views), if your dog is to get the title of obedience champion, it MUST be purebred. It must have  been graded at least a quality 2 at a show for it to be awarded the title. You can compete with crossbreeds but you can never get the ob.ch. title.

oh thats a DISGRACE & breedist & elitest!!!!!!

In many countries only pedigree dogs can compete in the governing canine bodies obedience competitions, this is why the UK Competitors have had difficulties with international competitions for Obedience and Agility as the dogs need to be purebred, and many aren't.

I think that the main reason that you get a lot of poo-ooing when two different breed of dogs are mixed together and sold as a designer breed for the same money as a pedigree, is that we breeders spend time and money refining our breed to the highest standards, healthwise, look wise, temprement and job wise, we are part of associations to get the best for our particular breed we are the experts, we look around carefully for stud dogs and make sure everything is done probably with KC backup and legally, basically make it a life long joyful job.

So when someone comes along and just decides to mix up breeds without checking into all the information needed, that we have spent years and years doing of course it upsets people.  I do agree there is some snobbery on this site, and sometimes some people are very quick to critisize and hurl their wrath at people. But on the whole it is because we care.

I do agree with regards to the BB I and many others would be happy for some authorised changes to be made to better the breed.  But on the whole the KC and breeders are doing a damn good job. :-)

Back to the start of this post which was about a Dalmation and Bulldog mix.   Come on would you ever........................

Exactly, as has been said the Bulldogs has health issues, as do Dalmations, will the cross breeder know or care about eradicating/preventing them????

Also there are over 200 breeds in this country, surely to God that is enough breeds for someone to find the type, the working ability, the allergy free (though this is untrue) etc. without breeding breeds that have health problems together, without having the parents health tested and more than likely they aren't even registered parents.

I'm sorry but I don't think that people should pay more for a cross breed than they do for "rare breeds" or any other proper breed, they actually should charge at the most half the price.  They don't care about their dogs just the money that they can get from them.  Well that's what I think anyway.

My last dog was a GSD x Collie mix and apart from his ears, never really had any other health problems. I would not have paid £500 for him at the time, but if I could have that time over again with him, I would give everything I have.

People who go out their way to buy cross breed dogs that haven't been health checked are encouraging these unscrupulous breeders to keep doing it. I would never dream about mating my rottie to another breed, not only do I know know what I would be doing, but there are already plenty of rescue cross breeds out there, we don't need more. They are just doing it for the money.

Shocking!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - think I might start breeding doberanians....... LOL  Good job dogs and cats cant be crossed you sould imagine it couldnt you: siapanese for sale £3000 each!!!!!!!

Its heartbreaking..... If you go to any rescue centre you will see loads of cross breeds (mongrels as my mum likes to call them) I myself have got one shes a boxer collie cross, she cost me £75 and I can get her spayed free of charge and shes fully vaccinated.  God knows what silly little name someone could give her and charge £500.  I might contact the lady who runs the rescue and suggest she gives them a funny name charges £500 and she will get loads of money to help run her rescue.

The reason I am against people breeding and selling these designer crossbreeds is that it's a blatant attempt to fool the unsuspecting buyer, usually they are told that its a rare breed or waiting for KC approval or similar, and often hybrid vigour is mentioned while declaring that eye testing and other breed specific tests are not necessary :rolleyes: so the buyer thinks they are getting something more than a pedigree pup :rolleyes: If it were any other product buyers would report the seller to trading standards, but it never seems to happen with dogs, perhaps because the owner feels they 'should have known better' but lets face it, many of us start out in dogs unaware of the difference between producing pups, and producing well bred, healthy, socialised pups typical of the breed ;)  Yes, the information is out there, but you have to know in order to look for it in the first place.

Well said, Dill. What I object to is the creation of  "designer" breeds to feed a materialistic market who surround themselves with objects that have been acquired because of the status they confer. What future for most of these poor dogs when they behave like dogs (and unpredictable dogs at that given some of the breed crossing) rather than accessories?

Good old crossbred "mutts" simply aren't the same thing. And I speak as someone who is just as keen to share their life with a crossbred dog as anything registered with the KC!!

>What future for most of these poor dogs when they behave like dogs<

But what about dogs such as show labs, their size seems to be mixed but certainly what I see their weight is massive compared to their working counterparts ---I mean real working labs from generations of working lines, not just one thats sold as a pet and the owners told "He had working parents" ------ a working lab owner would throw their hands up in horror if asked to get a show lab next time.
So whose right, show breeders or working breeders, working breeders of almost any breed would be as horrified at 'haveing' to try a show line for their purpose as show dog owners here are appear to be as horrified at modern trends in owner preferences.

My exprience of these X breeds is very limited indeed, I have seen close up and touched only 2 of them Lab types with poodle and I cannot remeber what I was told the others were.
I would say the Lab x poodle was a far healthier weight ratio for its body than the show labs I see, nice lan body, very agile, I did not really take a lot of notice of the others.
The only others I have seen are what are known as Victorian bulldogs, no idea what the fiirst one was x with, another was xsed, I think, with a Doge de Bordeoux and another I suspected had pit bull in it, they all seemed as unhealthy as the Brit Bulldog, which I think should be bred out on humane grounds anyway.

How many others have first hand experience of these x breeds and what do you think individualy based on what you saw?

Speak of the devil, I just flicked to another site and se the latesst member is named "Bullwolf Frenchies" well no need to guess I think.
Anyone want a French Bulldog x Grey Wolf?

Which site is that Dennis?

There is no reason for the working lab lover to get their show bred dog as heavy as seems to be fashionable in the showring, best of both worlds really if they aren't actually wanting to work it, as it is likely to be easier to live with as a pet with less working drive.

But what IS a show dog, there must be thousands of any one breed start the 2 year journey (I was once told by a show person) to get to crufts and of those thousands only half dozen or so are 'good enough'.
Logicaly that must mean the vast majority (thousands of them) of show bred dogs are completly useless!!
They are not up to and no good for show,- no good for work - they are not pets cause they were bred for show - are they therefor:-------'Showdoodles'.

Comments appreciated.

quote from alanspencer :"But what IS a show dog, there must be thousands of any one breed start the 2 year journey (I was once told by a show person) to get to crufts and of those thousands only half dozen or so are 'good enough'. "

I think the maths is a bit out here.  For starters, many breeds don't consist of thousands!  In my own breed there have been between 400 - 500 pups registered each year.  Taking our own kennels norm, you are lucky if 1 pup from a litter makes the grade for going as a show potential pup, very occassionally 2.  I would say there are perhaps 50 new show pups each year, and then of course the dogs in the older classes too, not many people show dogs much past 4 or 5, our veteran classes usually consist of just 1 or 2.  So you could say we have maybe 200 - 300 maximum showing in any one year, counting those who only show at open level, and an average crufts entry is 130 - 150 (ish)  - a lot more than half a dozen!  Of course, all those entered at shows and qualified for Crufts are not top quality, but they are Show dogs, because they have showed and qualified.

I don't think you will get a hard and fast definition of a Show Dog, as peoples ideas and standards vary.  But a sort of retrospective view has to be any dog who attends breed shows IS a show dog, by virtue of attendance alone :)  My own definition is a dog who comes as close to the breed standard as possible, with no  major deviations from the requirements set out in it.  An outgoing but stable temperament is also essential, and that little extra "something" which says look at me.  Even all that is no guarantee of a long show career.  You can have a pup/junior with all this, but who does not live up to early promise on maturity.
bye
Gwen
ps getting back to the original theme of this thread, as a show person I have no objection to cross breeds themselves, but to those who are deliberatley breeding them with no thought or care, and capitialsing on the popularity of certain breeds whilst justifying not doing any tests etc at all - with the wonderful reasoning of "hybrid vigour"  or "no history of problems in my dogs"  (becasue they never test them!).  The silly "designer name" thing gets to me, and lots os us here, as it usually flags someone who is willing to scam the unsuspecting puppy buyer.  One of my own breeds suffers from this - Pus stud dogs are often crossed with other small and medium breeds to capitalise on the popularity of the Pug, and the easy reproductive habits of other breeds such as Cavaliers, Beagles etc.  The cutesy nams of "Puggle" and "Pugalier" are an attempt to turn a distasteful business practice into a Disney type thing.
bye
Gwen

>"Pugalier" <

Come on you gotta admit it, it does have an amusing side to it, not up to my 'Showdoodles' maybe but nevertheless, I mean a "Pugalier"
Well I laughed when I read that one, just wait till whoever it is gets his wolfs and frecnhies of the ground-could be french mastiffs, probably is, he might not know Doge de Bordeux, "Pugalier", thats worth a box office laugh .

>the 2 year journey (I was once told by a show person) to get to crufts

You need to find better sources of information (like us? ;)) Denis. Pups can qualify for Crufts as soon as they're old enough to be shown, at 6 months. They cannot be shown there till they're a minimum of 9 months of age - not a 2 year journey!

>they are not pets cause they were bred for show

Showdogs are generally bred to be quality pets who are close enough to the standard to be shown as well if their owners want. There are many great dogs who have never been shown - and many bred for the pet market who should never be shown!

Firstly I am not you hearthrob Denis(at least you seem to think of him all the time) and now, for the second time I find I have to explain things to you which I have been told by someone who used to show.

It takes two years of going round all the shows before you reach Crufts, I am sure people will correct that if its wrong.
I have never written any post which had age of showing in its content so how do you, apparently, seem to think that I did, I mean how could you possibly come to that conclusion,there is nowhere in any posts here that I have read has anyone mentioned age of showing a dog.
I do not have an MA in English but it is average and I cannot see anything, which post is it?

Alanspencer, I do think that you ought to look on your profile, if you are not Dennis!!!

MPD methinks ;)

Iustus quoniam vos es paranoid does non vilis they es non sicco impetro vos

That must be admin having you on, I have read Denis Carthys stuff and his name has only one N.

Well I think I know who I trust :D

Margot

You trust me, I can tell by your latin and failure to answere the points I made two posts ago!?

Yaawn - sorry Dennis - you've lost the ability to keep the interest of us - I'm going to watch paint dry.

Umquam auditus of vapulus a mortuus equus?

>Yaawn - sorry Dennis - you've lost the ability to keep the interest of us<

What you really mean is you cannot give a sensible answere to my post of 4 posts ago, by now.

> DENNIS CARTHY Email alspence_alspence@yahoo.co.uk <

My friends Great Dane will be 14 months old when she's @ Crufts & has been to one Champ Show Dennis

Before they changed the rules & moved the show date on age one of my Beardies was 8 months old @ Crufts & requalified for the next year at Crufts !

You really should make somw friends who know what they are talking about

BTW all my British GSDs had good hips & were GSDs not Alsatians

>It takes two years of going round all the shows before you reach Crufts

Wrong! The puppy classes are for animals 9 - 15 months; if it took 2 years to get there these classes would be empty. My boy qualified at 6½ months of age and was shown at under 12 months.