I have a  beautiful Old Tyme Bulldog Bitch who is 8mths old i would like to mate her in the future but which season is the best for her, some people have said her 2nd and some her 3rd this will be my first time at breeding, I had a rottweiler bitch for 13yrs who died a virgin she would not let a dog near her !!!!

Really to be honest I wouldn't consider breeding her at ALL until you know a lot more about her breed and construction, type, genetic problems, health problems and then eliminate all the problems!!! After that I wouldn't consider nreeding from her until she is at least 2, all the best, Dawn

Hi Dawn
Thanks for your message i know quite alot about the breed that's why we bought an olde tyme bulldog rather than the british bulldog the old tyme is the orginal bulldog that has only been back in this country for the last 30yrs they do not have the breathing or heart probs as the british so that's 1 of the reason's we want to mate her we also have a dog who was imported from america where the breed is still very much recognized i only wanted an idea as alot of people have different idea's and view's

ok, no probs, didn't mean to be critical, maybe you should have said a bit more then I wouldn't have put me foot in it :D LOL
Certainly though not till she's 2, she needs to be mature, developed and finished growing! All the best, Dawn

Thanks Dawn that's what i think but my vet says next season then get her spayed i want the best for her that's why i wanted some view's seeing that my rottie never managed it !!! Lola's mum was 3 when she had her first litter of 10
( scary )
Simmone and Lola

Hi,

I think you'll find that the English Bulldog is the original one ;)  Unfortunately, like many breeds it has gone through some changes, but it is the original ;)

If you search the American Kennel Club website (the American equivalent of the KC ;) ) you'll find no mention of the Olde Tyme Bulldog or any other variation, they aren't recognised by them any more than they are by the KC here ;)  Nor is there any mention of them on the Canadian Kennel Club website
So, as a matter of interest, which official organisation in America recognises the breed?  And where can the breed standards be viewed?

Hi Dill
Only wanted your view's on which season didn.t realise it would cause problems go to google and type in Olde Tyme Bulldog and you will be able to find all the info on my dog!!!!
1st reason i wish to breed Lola after your read is we need to bring the breed back into the kc

I've already done the googling ;) :)

You stated that the Olde Tyme Bullldog is well recognised, I simply wanted to know who by so I could read a breed standard, the only thing google shows up is several different types of old-time bulldogs being bred by loads of breeders/kennels.  One could say that about any crossbreed with any name.  If the 'breeders' are serious surely there must be an agreed breed standard which I could then read :)   You still haven't told me exactly who the breed is recognised by?  If the breed is in development then there must be somewhere I could read the breed standard and aims and projected time frames of the breeders which would be lodged with one of the recognised Kennel Clubs of the world (KC, AKC, CKC, any of the european kennel clubs ;) )  Without an agreed breed standard how can anyone say that this or that dog is a good example of the breed? 

Not trying to cause problems just natural curiosity about an interesting subject :)

If you type in Old Tyme Bulldog on google then go onto something saying dorset old tyme bulldogs then i think that is has the breed standard on there.

Yes written by the breeder, just typed British Olde Tyme Bulldogge registry into google - only place that comes up is the same page ??

Surely this registry would be mentioned by any KC which recognises or is prepared to recognise the breed?

Yes i agree. Are Old Tyme Bulldogs allowed to be shown?

Not in open shows or championship shows, unrecognised breeds can only be shown in companion shows ;)

They have their own club, which organizes shows 2-3 times a year :)

Hi Dill
You still haven't answerd my question yes in hindsight my bulldog is a mongrel but if you have read all the info after your googling you would'nt of asked all the que's i would not buy a british bulldog with PAPER'S from the K.C as they have to many health probs that's why we bought a healthy bulldog which hopefully the K.C will reconize in the near furture

So all i have to say to you dill seeing that my post is bothering you so much is if i cross Lola with a shih tzu will i be able to call it BULLSHIT !!!!!

I am sorry but until the bulldog cross breeders get together and formulate a common standard and a co-ordinated breeding plan (and a name) then there is no chance for recognition.

If you want to breed from your girl it should only be if you are wanting to be part of this co-ordinated effort and you should know exactly what you are trying to achieve from any mating. 

In my view she should be closer to 3 than two if she is to be bred from but the responsibilites are vast.  Look at this link, can you live up to what a good breeder should be striving for?

http://www.dog-play.com/breedercomparison.htm

If you cannot, don't breed from your bitch at all.

What standard are you using to evaluate the qualities of your bitcha nd any likely sire.

Ir goes without saying that you should have your girl Hip Scored (through the official BVA scheme (not just a once over by a GP vet), and I would think Heart testing and elbows woudl be a given, as well as possibly eyes, as the breeds that have gone ito the mix are likely to be from breeds that have these problems.

There has already bee a case of Wobblers Syndrome (most often found in Great Danes and Dobermanns) found in one of the new Bulldog crossbreeds (Aylestone I think?) reported on this board.

I wouldnt really say the breeders that you have mentioned are breeders of Olde Tyme Bulldogs, they are breeders who prefer to throw together any kind of Bull Breed or Mastiff type dog together many of which are either American Bulldog X Dogue De Bordeaux (both of which breed need health tests prior to breeding from them) which is why you have to be extremely careful who you buy this kind of dog from, many being first crosses from breeders who dont give a stink about what they are producing.
Many dedicated people within OTB circles have never used the AB in their breedings, I know in the early stages the AB was used but the dogs produced tended to be very vocal which is not a trait wanted in the OTB, so using the AB within the OTB breeding programme was tossed aside (this was years ago) many of the dogs produced in the early stages of the OTB being direct decendants of some of the finest Bulldog lines in the world, dedicated people to the breed have been breeding true to type for many years now, some breeders having over 10 generations of OTB.

Hope this explains things clearly :)

That is a worthy aim, and if the poster has a dog from cuh careful breeding then they ought to contact and join these people and help them with their efforts.

If their bitch is of the throw anything together brigade maybe if they are serious about getting involved they can buy after study buy a good foundation bitch to help the efforts grow, and keep their current one as a loveed pet.

Do they have a breed standard, and how does it differ from the standard (not the dogs produced) of the Bulldog.

They do have a breed standard but without contacting someone 'in the know' I could not really say what it was, All I do know is dogs which stand at around the 19" to 21" mark are prefered to giving length to the legs.

I've some sympathy with people who want to breed back to an older type of bulldog. A friend of ours lost three well bred British Bulldogs, all of whom were doing nicely in show, at a young age from various breed related problems. But until and unless there is a dedicated group of people with a definte breeding plan and an accepted Standard, implemented over a lot of years, the Olde Tyme Bulldog is not going to be looked at by the KC. As it is, there seem to be a lot of Olde Tyme Bulldog pups advertised in free ad papers.

Would it not be better to get involved in the British Bulldog? I don't know the breed but I'd guess that there are some folks involved who do want to breed away from the exaggerations that have produced problems.

They are not breeding back to the old type of BB, they are totally different.

I would recommend hip scoring as HD seems a big problem in them, for the very few that have been scored.  Your dog will need to be at least 12 months for this.

And I wouldn't breed from her until she's two if at all.

Like I said 2 years old and if your Vet says different I would change the Vet. I won't repeat all my reasons behind this...but I'm sure most knowledgable people on here will agree...all the best, Dawn X

hi Simmy67.
As long as your vet says shes healthy and you've got insurance on her which covers breeding/birth etc .then you as the owner [and yr vet] can decide when the time is rite.I also agree that HD test etc need to be done.

But can I just say, ingnore the remarks about yr dogs breed. Obviously some people [usually BB breeders] dont like it when its said that there dogs arent healthy. I adore the BB but wud chose the OT or VB over the modern day BB every time nowadays due to unfortunate overexageration by its breeders! I have friends who have lost BB's prematurely due to the modern day BB's health problems. I prefer a dog like yrs that can run AND breath at the same time!! And yr breed unfortunately will probably never be recognised due to pompus attitudes. [and unco-ordinated breeding by breeders]

I hope all goes well for you Simmy and yr girl.xxx

The O.T.B. or O.E.B. are recreations.The real O.E.B. were created by Dave Leavitt.He begane the breeding programm in 1971.The breeding programm was with B.BULLDOGS,BULLMASTIFFS AND BOXERS.tHERE are many people with dogs that they call this breed but are not.

All those breeds ahve their own health issues, so are the people involced with creating these dogs hip scoring, eye testing and heart testing?  If not why not, as obviously inbreeding will be needed and inevitable at soem point so the doundation stock needs to be clera of these problems.

To my knowledge as far as I am aware their are no Leavitt dogs in the UK as most of which would fall under the DDA many having Pitt Bull Blood in the early stages of the Leavitt strain hence there being none in the UK :)

Mollmoo am I missing something, or are youn answering questions asked on PM?  As I am finding the thread hard to follow :)

Sorry Brainless I was following on to the reply made by nemasis giving an explanation as to why there are no Leavitt dogs in the UK :)
I am getting confused now :D

:D

If that was aimed at me I've never owned a BB nor would want to, but I have witnessed many fit, elderley ones.

Perro,

It was more likely to be aimed at me ;) as I've had the temerity to ask where in the world it is recognised and where I can read a breed standard for this breed.  No answers have been forthcoming :(

I have no problems with the idea of 'recreating' a breed in a healthier, more agile version etc. but I do have problems when I am told a breed is recognised etc. but then I am not able to read a recognised breed standard.  After all most of the designer crossbreeds are supposedly awaiting Kennel Club recognition :rolleyes:

Thanks for your kind words i didn't realise it would cause all this !!! i just wanted some view's on which season i will get the stud checked and lola checked before we go ahead and as i said thank you for your kind words

"So all i have to say to you dill seeing that my post is bothering you so much is if i cross Lola with a shih tzu will i be able to call it BULLSHIT !!!!! "

The only thing that bothers me is the thought that this is how you will be treating any puppy buyers that ask the same questions as me and get fobbed off with the same rubbish.

If you haven't got the answers don't pretend you have, why not just be honest in the first place?

Simmy - I'm sorry if the answers you have got here on CHAMPDOGS haven't been to your liking.

Maybe the reason for this is in the name of the forum - CHAMPDOGS - this forum is generally populated by people who show and breed or own KC PEDIGREE dogs.    Yes, we have our beloved mongrels, who are generally rescues.   But we all feel passionately that we should ONLY be bteeding for the good of our chosen breed, using dogs and bitches which are good- hopefully exceptional - examples of the breed.

Forgive us if we don't go all "fluffy" at the thought of breeding just for the hell of it!

Margot

Hi Margot,
Thanks for putting me in the picture about this site but too me Lola is a champdog so now that i have been informed by you at last as i was getting a little bit worried after my post i will word my post's more wisely many thanks

Simmy
Who are the breeders of your dog?  If it is who I think it is without looking futher into her lines I definatly would not consider breeding from her at all.

I know exactly who bred this Olde Tyme bitch. Why would YOU not consider breeding from her MollMoo?

Simmy

If she were mine, I wouldn't even be thinking about anything to do with breeding, simply because she is still a baby! Why plan her life so far ahead? Anything can happen from now until then, enjoy her as a pup and gain experience and friends, go to shows. I wouldn't even worry about breeding. You are asking very basic questions which if you put in the proper research (you have plenty enough time!) you would know the answers too! Please don't take this as a dig, but you are claiming to know a lot about the Olde Tyme Bulldogge, clearly from your posts you do not. You also pointed someone in the direction of the Dorset breed standard as a standard for YOUR breed, but your olde tyme is NOT a Dorset.

Please don't think I am having a dig, I LOVE the various Olde Tymes, but how can they move forward as a breed when people with very little knowledge does so much harm on a forum like this. This is why you have met the response that you have. Likewise, how can it move forward when breeders are so split on type, there is no decent registry and the puppy farmers are already doing the damage to cash in on what could be a wonderful alternative to a British, but a breed in it's own right!

JMO

I forgot to add that wouldn't it be a better idea to get in touch with the breeders of Lola and go on their advice, as they know your girl best? They can advise you on whether your girl is suitable for breeding, what age to breed her and what stud would compliment her! Just a thought.

WHY?

Because if it is who I think it is, then its the 'throw anything together' people. :)

Hi MollMoo

I was just a little confused. You said you didn't have too much interest in bulldogs, claimed to meet Steve Barnett and talk dogs with such praise of his efforts, which is great! BUT... WHY didn't you answer the genuine questions on the board asking about Steve's breeding program? You said he'd done it with pure British Bulldog blood, but he didn't, did he? And when people raised questions on why he hadn't registered them with the KC then, you didn't answer. Because it is not a PURE British Bulldog line, it is a recreation of an 'Olde Tyme Bulldog' using the dogs that Steve has obviously felt benefited his breeding program.
As for the Victorian Bulldog, this dog was created using only KC reg breeds (only the best of each breed available) and included Bulldog, Bullmastiff, Bull and Terrier breeds.
Jealously is also a terrible thing, so I wouldn't listen to all you hear! Your statements of these breeders 'just putting anything together', what facts are you basing this on? Hasn't just about everyone involved put 'just anything' together to recreate this breed??? Does Steve Barnett carry out any health screening or tests on his dogs before breeding and their ancestors before them? I don't see anyone working with pure Bulldog lines towards a healthier dog that can be KC reg!
Not being rude and I don't know you personally, but you make some sweeping statements and comments on breeding lines you have state you do not have the experience in these dogs. Who qualified you to judge (and jury???).

Let the breeders and owners speak for themselves on their 'own' breed, not someone who just thinks they know it all.

I would be interested to know if nayone is working with pure buldog blood to create a more retro fitter and healthier dog that can breed naturally, as I think that certainly should be the aim of bulldog breeders.

What people are trying to achieve by crossing with much larger breeds I fail to understand as surely the dogs will be too large to be bulldogs which always have been a partly achondroplastic (lower to ground breed).

What are the aims of the various bulldogs crossbreed breeders, where are the standards and how are they planning to achieve their aims of health and fitness and type?

Why do there seem to be so many different ones, which I feel is one reason no Kennel Club will take them seriously.  Is there any move to standardise?

A couple came to our training classes with what they claimed was an Old time bulldog.  to me it looked like a docked Stafford, it had the round head of a staff, no flews and it's body shape was that of a staff, and they told me it's dad was a pedigree staffie.  They were still admamant that it was an old time bulldog, and had paid £450.  Within a year they bought a bitch that looked even less like a bulldog, but stopped coming to class as the male was getting possesive of teh bitch and going for the other dogs.

In the park I did see what looked like a large bulldog it was pretty fit and looked like a large athletic bulldog of pictures seen taken  some 70 years ago.