Why is it that some judges insist on mauling dogs when they go over them?  I have a short coated breed and all you really need to do is look at the teeth - other than that you can see everything else.  Today at Midland Counties I was showing a friends young import and although he was happy in the ring and moved with his tail up as required he was very wary of being touched.  The judge managed to look at his teeth and run her hand down his back but noooooo that wasn't enough.  She wanted to go all over him inch by inch.  She was actually rubbing dogs' ears between her fingers at one point!! 
This is so offputting to a sighthound and to my mind shows a complete lack of understanding of the breed.  I've never understood judges who simply HAVE to maul short coated breeds!  Does their "eye" not tell them whether the dog is well constructed or not???
What's even more annoying is that she told me she was very sorry and the dog was obviously ticket material but she couldn't do anything other than place him last.
I dispair of some people's lack of knowledge of the breeds they judge.

Not a short coated breed, I know, but I once went to an Afghan judging seminar where they demonstrated two carefully chosen dogs.  One moved very well, but on handling was short in upper arm and straight in stifle.  The other moved dreadfully, but on handling was found to be well constructed but lacking muscle.  The movement was then improved by giving to a more experienced handler! ;)
They were deliberately demonstrating that both eyes and hands are needed before making judgment. :)

Yes but on a short coated breed you can SEE short upper arms and you can SEE straight stifles and you can SEE decent muscle definition!  I'm talking about a breed with a very, very fine coat and thin supple skin.  What can your hands tell you then that your eyes can't in that case?  As long as you can feel for suppleness of skin and texture of coat there's nothing more to feel for!

A good handler can disguise many faults! ;)

Surely it can be only good for any dog to be handled not only by the handler but by the judge as well,it must show tolerance in a dog as well as what their nature is, besides feeling muscle content etc, I thought it was common practise for this to happen although i haven't stepped into a showring for a few years now!I used to show Pointers who also have a very short coat.

I prefer a judge who is firm with their 'going over'...nothing worse than a judge who fafs aroung.A well trained show dog should not object to being handled IMO....might be ok in a young dog/pup but not in an adult.
Suppose you can't please everyone all of the time....sure if the judge had done as you say and looked only and only checked teeth then many people would have moaned about the judge not bothering to give them sufficiant consideration
Archer

If someone goes "right over" my dog, I do at least feel that I'm being given more than a cursory glance, and maybe even a better chance ;)

Margot

Sorry I don't think I made myself very clear.  This judge was OVERhandling the dogs.  Not going over them quickly and professionally as one would expect but going over them inch by inch, feeling EVERY part of them!!  AND going over them again in the challenges....sometimes twice!!!  Even steady dogs were starting to back off after a while!
This particular breed used to have the phrase "diffident with strangers" in the breed standard but the KC took it out which gives you an insight into this breed's temperament.  They do not normally like being approached head on (like a lot of sighthounds) and when you have someone insisting on approaching a young dog with the back of their hand timidly outstretched like it's gonna turn round and remove a couple of fingers and not the no nonsense approach that most sighthounds prefer you have to question their breed knowledge.  The poor dog looked at her like she was insane and said "no way is that coming near me!!!" He does NOT have a bad temperament and was happy to freestand, wagging his tail and as I said before he moved happily and with style.
I'd like to add this isn't anything to do with sour grapes at not winning either.  I had two 13 month olds (dog and bitch) in the open classes so I wasn't expecting to take the ticket.
I can see the points you're making but this breed is very primitive in both appearance and temperament and all I ask is that judges deemed knowledgable enough to award CCs in a breed like this are aware of how to go over them or how not to go over them.

I'd just like to add that two very well known and well respected sighthound judges went over him later...properly...and the dog stood like a rock.

The eye can easily be deceived by markings, etc (and sneaky handlers! ;) ). In some smooth-coated breeds it states that ear-leather should reach the nose - you can't check that without handling. How can toughness of pads be assessed if the judge can't pick up the feet? Also remember the temperament clause in the standard - I don't think any breeds are required to be 'wary of being handled by strangers'.

As a once handler of short coated breeds then I judge still needs to go over the dog to check :)  I would hate it if someone was to just look in a boxers mouth and then ask you to move it.  Infact it is much better IMO for a judge to "see" with his/her hands as eye's can decive! :)

I'm also one who will repostion dogs legs, mainly because I am a handler and know some of the tricks of the trade!

Absolutely!! ;)

I've noticed that if a judge thoroughly goes over a dog they're impressed by it - they don't waste their time on a mediocre animal. ;)

Too many people are expecting dogs to be generic showdogs, rather than being typical of their breed. A coated breed needs going ovr much more than one without. A breed with markings needs a bit more of a check because of the possability of optical illusions. But when the dog moves then the conformation is tested - I dont care how good to 'go over' a dog is, if it moved badly then it is not correctly made in some respect. Some breeds can be funny about being gone over, some breeds need to be approached in a particular way. Many sighthounds are not natural 'showdogs' they are looking into teh distance for something to chase - that is part of these breeds.

bazb, In one of my breeds you cannot always judge on movement due to the dog not being moved correctly due to no fault of the owner! :)

Also things can be hidden on the movement... 

at the same time the dog may be excelently made but doesn't move because it is moved poorly by the handler

That sounds like coated breeds need better temperements than short coated then :( Coated or not, I would not be best pleased to pay 20 quid to have the judge only touch for teeth and testicles! I cant abide the £10 a touch type judges.

Have to say in my breed its a dead giveaway when watchig the judge going over the dog whether they actually know the breed ;) 

In some shortcoated breeds musculature can alter the way bone structure is percieved and give a false impression of construction ;)  This will only be ascertained by going over the dog ;)

I much prefer a judge who demonstrates they know what to look for in the way they go over the dog ;)

I much prefer a judge who goes over my dog properly rather than one who waves their arms in flourishes, copying others but obviously not know quite what bit they should be touching! ;)

Ice Queen - dont really understand what you mean - are you saying that bad movement should be ignored because it is the handler's fault? A CC level judge should be able to see when a handler is trying to hide something and ask them to go again.

Smooth coated breeds do not need to be poked and prodded all over. Different breeds should be gone over in different ways.  Experienced and knowledgeable judges can v quickly assess a dog without mauling it to death, movement confirms your impression - some judges go over dogs in great detail - stare at them for ages then make a complete mess of their placings, I realise that exhibitors want their 'moneys worth' - personally I like a quick judge who judges to a pattern that you can follow so you understand what they went for.

But surely, "making a complete mess of placings" is objective? I could say a complete mess is made if the ones I like dont win :) Any handler trying to hide faults will do so however many times the dog is moved, stacked etc. The only way to properly assess the dog is by feel. I know some dogs who move very well, but that doesnt mean they have correct proportions, bone etc. for their breed.

It was never my intention to suggest that a judge shouldn't go over a dog - of course they should.  It was HOW they go over that dog that I was concerned about.  You can run your hands all over a dog - I have no problem with that.  But why spend 27 seconds running your hand up and down a dog's hinquarters? (yes I stood there and timed it).  Just sit there and count out 27 seconds - it's an awfully long time to be looking and feeling for...well...for what???? what could possibly take that long to find?

As I said before it was OVERhandling of a dog that was the problem not going over a dog.

By the way - it may surprise some people but my bitch (of the same breed but at 10 months old) won 3 BPIB at Ch shows and a ResCC this year without ever being touched by a judge.  This may seem odd to some people but the people that judged her were sighthound people who know what young sighthounds can be like.  Now she is as steady as anything in the ring and has been from 11 months old.  The dog is just going through this stage at a slightly later date.

I should also state that this is a solid coloured breed so no markings to decieve the eye and I stand and move them on a completely loose lead so I can't disguise anything

Why do you need to feel for correct proportions in a short-haired single coloured breed? These types of dogs can be gone over very quickly by judge who knows what they are doing - and we are talking here about CC awarding judges. Newer judges will take more time to feel as  they are not experienced in assessing dogs within a short time frame.
As far as handlers hiding faults when moving, as I said before a judge should be able to spot this, and ask for the dog to be moved again, and again and again until the handler does as asked. If after 3 requests they still refuse to do what asked the judge will be sure there is a fault being hidden and place accordingly!

what if the handler is genrally a bad handler though or is handicaped in some way?

There is another way a handler can hide something on a dog on the stand :)  Appropriate clothing works sometimes :)

And no babz judges don't pick up handling IMO and IME!

Clever handlers can disguise some faults in movement in the usual triangle & up & down, but more prolonged gaiting reveals faults

In a smooth coated breed even the best handler will find it difficult to hide faults in construction & movement

My personal hate is judges who don't know how to correctly look at teeth I've seen some try to open Peke's mouths to check the bite even though the breed standard does not mention it !

> Mouth Level lips, must not show teeth or tongue. Firm under-jaw essential. <

It does though refer to the fact that they do have teeth.  Surely you would check just to see if they have got some at least? ;-)

Julie

They are not mentioned in the breed standard & when I was at a judging seminar the all rounder & specialist both stated there is no need to look at the teeth Where does it say that they have to have any teeth in the breed standard ? It doesn't it only states that they shouldn't be visible so what are you to look for ?

The GSD standard on the other hand not only mentions the type of bite but the humber of teeth so they should actually count the teeth as well as look at the bite !

I agree with you Surannon, in smooth coated dogs I was always told "if you cant see it, then you aint going to feel it".

ice queen - are you saying that movement should be ignored? IMO movement is the true test of construction, and I believe many breeds are best judged by watching them go in profile. A good judge can assess dogs despite the handler's best or worst efforts, and judges are there to place the dogs on merit, not put up the ones that stand still the longest

Agggh, but how many of us have seen a dog move wonderfully that has severe HD and one move blooming awful with the lowest possible score?  I know I have :d

No I believe movement is a very important part but movement isn't the be all and end all of it.  I will often go over a dog, watch it move and go over it again looking at points I didn't find when going over the dog but saw in the movement to check on them.

Although I judge my true love is in the showing/handling and I have spent over 10 years learning how to show dogs to their best advantage and how to present dog to their best advantage.  In my experiance many judges can't see past the handling ability... :)  However that's only in my experiance

Edit: SWD I have too...infact own the poor score great mover :D

How can you tell a dog has HD when going over it with your hands ? You certainly cannot tell by feeling, pressing down or moving the hindquarters This is one thing I have personal experience of having had a severely dysplasic dog for 13 years

I hate judges who try to test the hindquarters by manhandling them, a lovely GSD who has won CC's JW & under German SV judges has super movement & severe HD(she's not being bred from BTW) Are you saying she shouldn't win because she has HD ? If her movement is correct for the breed & she is sound & in no pain why shouldn't she win if she is better than the rest of the class & bitches at the show ? I've seen some very unsound dogs with good hips should they win just because they have good hips ?

I don't think thats the point being brought up MM.  :)

How does a judge know the hip score of a dog being judged?