Can anyone tell me anything about the toy / miniture breed

Sorry - can't tell you anything about it, because it isn't a breed over here in the UK, and I believe I am correct in saying, is not accepted over in the US either!

Margot

I am a naturally blonde so please forgive me if I just don't get it.....

Why do people want a particular breed in mini-size ??
There are so many smaller breeds already ! But they don't want those....no they want medium size breeds in
size Small ...why !?!?!?
Why not look into the smaller breeds that exist and find a small breed that suites you ?
Look at what is already there....don't invent (or try to invent) something new just for the fun of it...
Wanting animals like this will only cause problems...because no real breeder will do this ...but puppy farms will have a field day.
As long as there is money involved they will get you whatever you want...without thinking twice about the animals and what the
effect will be....
Why do you want a prefectly good dog downsized to your wishes ?? Why do people want to adjust nature to their
wishes instead of adjusting to nature ?? (didn't we do that more than enough already ?)

Animals are living creatures!!.....no fasion statements or accessory (sp?) to your latest outfit/interieur or whatever.

Sorry I do not want to affend anybody. I just don't get it :(

Iguana74 what you have said is a very good way of putting it, people seem to only do it for money.  To me toy aussies look like a sheltie!  more then a mini version of an australian shepherd.  Saying that I have only seen pictures, but never one in real life. 

Pheobe, if you wan't an aussie whats wrong with a normal sized one?  there are kennels where they tend to have smaller sized bitches, just because that is what they like,  If not try looking and a sheltie!

Well I know that puppy farmers are in it for the money.
But they are only able to cross breed so much and breed 'designer' breeds because of demand.
If there was no demand for mini-breeds no puppy farmer would breed them.
So I really can't blame this on the puppy farmers (don't get me wrong please, I'm NOT pro puppy farmers...I hate the fact that they
get away with abusing animals for profits! I don't agree with any kind of profit-breeding for any kind of animals!)

But they are only able to do so because there is a market for these kinds of dogs and people want to have a dog adjusted to
some sort of fasion or their standards.

If you love a medium or big dog but for what ever reason you are not able to keep a dog of that size (physical problems/ small housing or any other legitemate reason) why not look for a existing smaller breed that comes close to the breed you like and is possible for your
lifestyle instead of making it possible for people who do not actually care about the breed or the animal for that matter to be able to cross breed untill they are able to deliver a small version as requested.
Resulting in a lot of dogs suffering because some humans though it would be 'funny' to have a mini Saint Bernard ?? (this as example...please don't tell me they actually exist !!)

We all love pups...we all love new born babies.....we all love anything that is young and small...
BUT everything gets older and bigger....it's natural !! Please stop manipulating natures way to suit you pleasure

(again not wanting to affend anybody...this is my personal opinion and I just want to know what drives people to start a demand for mini versions and why they want a mini version of an existing breed)

Your right about puppy farmers.  If you look at it as puppy farmers in the market like a chocolate factory!  If consumers want a chocolate bar which is half white chocolate and half milk chocolate then the chocolate companies are going to produce this and sell it (its in demand).  The same with puppy farmers.  If someone want's a cockerpoo, puppy farmers will supliy the demand.

Puppy farmers are brreding for money because the CAN!  People will buy from them, so they stay in business.  f no-one brought from puppy farmers there wouldn't be the market!  Unfortantly we can't educate everyone :(

<<Unfortantly we can't educate everyone >>

You are right....but maybe..just maybe by getting this point across to 10 people about this
we might be able to get these 10 people to talk about this to 10 others each.
You've got to start somewhere right ?

And it's so eay to blame the puppy farmers or profit breeders of any kind of animal....
but they exist only because of 'us' humans who want what they will supply.
I'm convinced that you can not get a profit farmer to change his/her ways and make them stop.
But you can try to stop the demand and therefor stop the supply.
Or at least keep trying.

I couldn't agree more, Iguana! Nobody who truly loves dogs will do this sort of thing.

What is it with people .... either they want something BIGGER than anyone else has - or it has to be SMALLER!

Why cana't we just accept NORMAL?????

Margot

Because normal = average and everyone wants something unique.

Although, frankly, I wouldn't know a toy Australian Shepherd if I fell over one in the street.

<<everyone wants something unique>>

Jep...and they don't think twice about the consequences for the animals.
They don't think about how many animals have to suffer to get something 'different'
They don't think about what the risks are for themselves. What 'defects' will those dogs have, how about vet
costs because of those defects, what about the fact that they look different but also act different.
being small doesn't mean easier to train.
And again the shelters are overloaded by cross-breeds, miniature breeds because the fasionable owners didn't get
what they expected....And that of course is blamed on the dog or the breeder.
They never take responsability for the fact that these dogs only exist because of their wishes. :(

just had a look on some US sites looks like ,some XS with shelties & german spitzs has been going on!!!!!

... Chloe - the wheels would give it away :D

Actually, I'm a bit disturbed to see that there is a Miniature Aussie breed club, which appears to be affiliated to the AKC - see here http://www.mascaonline.org/ClubInfo.htm#Current    :(

Margot

Oh yes margot there are mini aussies.  Someone has even imported one :(

Hello, This is my first post.  I grew up with an Australian Shepherd.  We got him in 1953, and he was what is currently being sold as a Miniature Australian Shepherd in the United States.  There have always been small Australian shepherds.  It is a purely American Breed, and it wasn't even until the 90's that there was even an AKC standard for them.  So the mini has been accepted here; it's not a tragedy.  The temperment is different than the Shetlie; the appearance is different, the coat is different.  Frankly, I can't wait to get my little TOY Australian Shepherd puppy.  If she is anything like the miniature Aussie I grew up with, I will be deleriously happy.

Thank you.

Sylvana

I just talking about the pictures I seen, I did state I have never seen one in real life.  I just think it's a shame that aussies come in 3 sizes, and soon the 3 sizes will end up in england :(  why can't each breed come in one size?

Alot of people, when they come to a time in their life they go for a smaller breed, they find a new breed, maybe with the same charecteristics and simlar looks but they don't make their original breed smaller!

What you are missing is that the Australian Shepherd has always come in different sizes.  It just happened that way.  When I was a girl and the breed was just a farm dog, most Aussies were smaller.  Then cattlemen wanted a larger dog to help them herd cattle.  I was surprised when I saw that the Australian Shepherd had grown from the 25 to 35 lbs dogs I knew to the 60 lbs dogs of today.  Why didn't the breeders who wanted the larger dog go and find one that already existed instead of breeding the Australian Shepherd into a larger dog? I can ask you the same question.  The reason for the existence of the toy dog, I am sure, is do to the special personality characteristics of the Australian Shepherd.

The perfect dog for all people does not exist; and there are far more reasons now to develop dogs with special characteristics than in the distant past, when dogs were needed to herd, hunt, dig after vermin, chase rats, and bite the overseer.

Sylvana

What are the new reasons to develop new breeds today?  There are over 100 dogs avaliable.  Red and white setters suit me perfectly, however owning an aussie in our current household would not be, thats why I am in partnership.  I love the looks and everything about a toller, but it doesn't suit my lifestyle (yet)

But the irish red and white setter does.  I ahve 4 very well suited to me and family.  I think there is a dog for everyone and if they don't know what they want in a dog they shouldn't be getting one!

The biggest change I have seen in an aussie is being more "showey" I have seen pictures of some of the first aussies and they look to me more like the "working" type we have here.  Ok so I can't get an idea of them exactly, I have never seen them, I have only been in the breed 6 years.

When the breed as "just a farm dog" it didn't have the breed standard, it wasn't developed.  If I remember correctly, it got cross bred afew times with other "just farm dogs" so back then wasn't the pure australian shepherd with a blue print.

Correct me if I am wrong!

You are correct, there was no standard way back when and it was a working dog. My great Uncle owned a sheep ranch and he leased other property to graze his sheep.  He needed working animals, and if the dogs didn't herd they were culled. The Border Collie also didn't have a standard.  As I recall, owners didn't want a standard because they were afraid that the behavior of the dog would be sacrificed for the conformation.  (I raised pedigreed rabbits at one time and I had to physically put the male rabbit on top of the female rabbit because the ability to breed naturally had been literally bred out of them. They were pretty however.)

Not having a "standard" may in some cases be a good thing. 

Sylvana

Do you think that, in the not too distant future, people will pay money to ensure they have very very small children??? :D ;)

Some people already plan to ensure their children will be deaf.  Much planning is already taking place to ensure that disabled people are no longer born.  Who knows what the future will bring.

Sylvana

<<<Some people already plan to ensure their children will be deaf>>>>.....
as the mother of a severely hearing impaired daughter I think if this is true these people are not fit to have children at all.
What a sad world we live in
Archer

I remember hearing this a while ago in the UK - the parents were both profoundly deaf .....

Daisy

Archer.  I saw a programe where a deaf couple wanted a deaf baby.  It was moving, before I saw this I thought they were bad bad people.  Now I don't know what to think.

The miniature aussie is actually the original size being no more than 18 inches at the shoulder.  The larger size was bred way back to work larger stock.  It is truly an American breed and should be recognized by the Pastoral group. It should have the same standards only with a size variation.  Beagles are the same way and born in the same litters.They are not cross-breed and should not be accepted in lineage that cannot be proven.  They are just the smaller version with the same characteristics and herding/working instincts.  Anything less is not acceptable. 

Then why does the americans not reconise the mini aussie in the hearding group over there?

From the AKC.ORG website"The United States Australian Shepherd Association works hard to maintain the breed true to type in its land of origin. The breed entered the AKC Stud Book in 1991 and entered the Herding Group in January 1993. "  Only recognized a few years back.  It takes time and quality breeders to develop a breed that is recognized by the various organizations.  Each type or rather size of breed uses the same standard except for size.  Look at the poodle, schnauzer and the beagle.  The mini is the same just bred from stock that is smaller in size but the same in temperament, structure and form.  It took almost a hundred years for the AKC to recognize the standard let's hope that it won't take that long for the mini.

That doesn't answer my question...unless I've missed something...

Just as your prefered breed the Red and White.  The mini was lost even before the recogninition from the AKC.  Just a little quote form the UKC site, "The Irish Setter probably came to its own at the end of the 17th century. It is not well known outside of Ireland that there are two breeds of Irish Setters, but is fairly certain, that the Red and White Setter is the older of the two, and that judicious selective breeding evolved the solid red color. When Irish Setters came to the show benches, just past the middle of the 19th century, there was a good deal of confusion about their proper color. By the end of the 19th century, the Red Setter had virtually eclipsed the Red and White, which became so rare, that they were thought to be extinct. During the 1920s, efforts were made to revive the breed. By 1944, the breed had re-established itself well enough to have a club of its own, and today it can be seen in healthy numbers at Irish shows and Field Trials. The present Club in Ireland, the Irish Red & White Setter Field & Show Society, was formed in 1981 and through its endeavors and direction the breed is now well established nationally and internationally."  Rare for the mini is only today getting the aussie back to their roots and size.  Re-establishment of the size is just the same as it was for the red and whites. Because of the red and whites possible extinction they are not recognized by the AKC.  Through judicious breeding the mini was made into the larger version that is accepted today.  Not a seperate breed just the original size.  

Out of interest, Aussiesfirst - (1) are you in the USA and (2) do you have a toy aussie?

Margot

Margot,
     Yes I am in the Us and yes I have a standard female working aussie and 2 minis.  Workers is training at 5 months old.

Who knows the two minis may end up toys but I doubt it.  One is very small and one is 11 1/2 at the shoulder.  They both work all day and catch a snooze on the couch at night.  I love them for their wrok ethic and their drive.  They may never show but they will compete.  Agility and herding if they continue their work ethic.

Cor I must say first I've heard of a mini red and white in my 11 years in the breed, never have  I read in the books or websites or from the people who are much more experianced in the breed for me...

I can still not see though that if the breed (aussie that is american) is not in hearding group over there why it should be also here in the UK (pastoral) 

The standard Aussie is in your pastoral group.  The mini is considered rare breed here but with the same standard as the larger aussie.  There is only a size differance.  Size being from 13 inches to 18 inches.  Standard being 18 to 21.  Some of the "mini" aussies have been registered AKC at 17 inches and show in AKC shows.  The standard is not lost due to size.  It's only lost due to corrupt breeders and those manipulating to make a designer dog. Maintaining healthy aussies through evaluations and certifications keep the breed true to the original character.  Size is the only differance and should not be discounted.  As far as being accepted in the UK in the pastoral group it will take time and only when the standard and breeding quailities are agreed upon should that happen. 

I sure hope it's the standerd aussie...Thats what I've been telling everyone my now nearly 6 years in the breed!  I like to think I know the breed I own and handle.  I don't think I would like to see 2 or 3 sizes of aussie's here in the UK like there is of the poodles and schzures. (sp) I personally think from what I have seen of pictures on the net the toy aussie looks like a Sheltie and the mini aussies look like our 18 inch aussie bitch (who just never grew to size) 

How can a mini be shown as a standard if it is too small?  surely then the dog wouldn't win because it is below size?

My mind is all confused

I was confused at first too.  The smaller dog was judged using the standard.  In the standard on size it states,"Quality is not to be sacrificed in favor of size."  That is how the smaller dog can be in the show and win.  I am sure that the judge knows the standard and saw an awesome aussie in a smaller package.  I had to look it up to be sure.  I am a little wary of the 3 sizes too.  However if they don't cross breed to attain the size and adhere to health regulations(make sure they get the certs etc.) and the standard they can be quality dogs.  My minis look like standards so far and don't have any major faults other than size.  Unless you put them next to my standard you wouldn't know the difference. My standard female is over the size limit.  Maybe that is where your girls growth went ;).  She stands at 22.

Ice Queen,
     Did that answer your question? 

Well I really hope that it does take 100 years to accept the toy australian shepherd - having seen all the requests for tiny teacup toy dogs means that this dog will be another one "miniaturised" beyond belief in order to accommodate modern man's need for dogs to fit spaces, not spaces to fit dogs.

Margot

Margot,
     I agree.  Breeding to accessorize is wrong.

Out of interest too the same questions you asked.

If you are asking me the same questions as I asked you, then the answers are (1) No, I like in the UK and (2) No, I have standard size Australian shepherds.

Margot

Margot,
     How many aussies and are they working stock?  What differences are there in breed types from the UK to the US?

Over here, the Australian Shepherd is only just off the Rare Breeds register, so fortunately for the dogs, and ourselves, 99.9% of breeders adhere to the standards set out by the NASA and ASCUK, breeding only from hip-scored and eye-tested dogs.

Mine come from show lines, but they are perfectly capable of working, and we are starting on agility with our 2 youngsters.   We have 4 aussies - Thor and Loki, who are full brother & sister , both black tris- from separate litters, and 2 of Loki's pups - Beau, black tri boy, and Vinnie, blue merle female.  Thor is now 7, Loki 5, and Vinnie & Beau are 3 next week.  They've all be shown a bit, but we've been working on agility this last year - will probably show again next year - provided all my handlers can get their acts together :D

Margot

Margot,
    Good to hear that there are responsible aussie owners out there.  They are a great breed and love their people.  I'll let the post know how it goes with the minis.  They are my first and so far they are exactly as I remember in puppy hood.  My standard is a blk tri(Daly Waters 6) and the boys are a blk tri (Timora will be small) and a blue merle(Canberra will get to be at least 16inches).  Both will be certified age appropriate and more than likely altered.  They are half brothers two weeks apart.  They are getting into the ugly puppy stage blowing coat but a joy to train and work.  I have had interest in showing but they are still considered rare breed.  Both will get their CGC like my girl.

Margot,
     If your handlers get their acts together I'd love to hear about the shows.  I am sure that your dogs will excell in agility.  Just remember to have fun and enjoy them.  Do you have flyball in the UK?

Marot surely your handlers obey your every command!!!! :D I'm slowly getting my handler to take over...Bless lil bro is even thinking of taking the monster to crufts handling....

Roxanne: 

Don't forget - we've had Family Dramas :D :D :D

Al & Mandy now a couple .....but Mandy suffered a serious herniated disc whilst on holiday in France - she is only just back home (after a total of 11 weeks away from home/holiday & hospital) - and she is still on crutches & likely to be that way for a long, long time :(   Kealie is now just beginning to panic about GCSEs after treating school with comtempt for all these years :D - so it could well be me doing all the showing next year .......heeeelp!!!!

At least, now I'm "part time" retired and getting back to full fitness myself , I should have time to do training etc etc etc ...........

I'm coming to LKA dogless :D

Margot

:D You mean someone has ruined your handling team ability...It's a sign to have you doing it for yourself :D

Come on twice round the pretend ring at aussie speed Margot!!! :D

Wishing a speedy recovery for Mandy!

Have fun at LKA...

Im importing a mini aussie from Florida this year. Rizzo is beautiful - 17" at withers and a black tri. I did alot of research into the breed before deciding that i would have one. I tried to find a breeder in the UK but i was told that there werent any. Although i am not well known in showing - dogs are my life. I own a very successful dog grooming salon and i compete in the summer most weekends in agility. I already own an aussie and an aussie cross who have the most amazing characters. I have been competing in agility for 9 years and i wanted a smaller dog to not only compete with but also live with! None of the other breeds captured my heart like the aussie so when i found out about the mini aussie - well they seemed just perfect. My mini aussie will not be going into quarantine as she has a pet passport and she has spent the last 8 months living in the breeders home - not kennels. We do hope to breed from her in a few years, but this is most certainly not for the money. I want to give other people in the UK the chance to own a mini aussie and to introduce the breed into the country. None of my puppies will be sold to be used for puppy farm breeding and all homes will be vetted to a very high standard. I dont want people to be upset that i am importing Rizzo as i do not want to compromise the standard of the larger aussie in any way - i am very fond of this size also. Rizzo will be very very much loved as all my dogs are and i really cant wait to have her! She is very healthy, in perfect proportion - just in a smaller package! Her breeder is an expert in mini aussies and will always keep in touch with how Rizzo is doing.

What are you going to mate her to, if she's the only one?