I am a dog owner of two wonderful huskies and i have been walking many different places lately only to my horror have seen and heard many huskies comming from wales at a very high price also the malamute at around the 950.00. To me this does not sound right and i worried about what hands these dogs are falling into.  If i am wrong Please tell me so and put my mind at rest.

p.s  I know most breeds of dogs are puppy farmed and i do feel for them all but with these breeds they are not for the everyday person and because of the look of them this is what people go for.  Im sure im not the first husky owner to hear another dog owner say " ive always wanted a husky i love the look of them".

I love the look of them but I have never wanted to own one! :D

Nor me. I know from this board that the Husky is not for the faint hearted but there are other breeds that are not for the everyday pet owner either

There are a lot of puppy farms (which are unethical but not illegal) in Wales for a number of breeds.  The reason ?  The Welsh assembly who introduced the grant as part of their Farming Connect Service to help farmers to diversify.  I found one news report here.

I'm not completely sure on price but I would have thought £900 - £950 a good price to pay for a GOOD Alaskan malamute with an excellent pedigree, show lines, crufts qualified etc - so (and please correct me if I'm wrong) if this is the going rate for one of these puppies then that is where others get there pricing guidelines from.

Like all breeds, you will find AM's available at a cheaper price if you look long and hard enough, some will be genuine good breeders whilst others will not, so, all we ethical people can do is guide people correctly, advise them on what to look out for when purchasing a puppy, what conditions/situations to avoid, to get recommendations from others who are in the breed, contact breed councils, make sure you see the puppy in it's home with it's mother - basically, don't take a puppy just because you feel sorry for it, refuse and report puppies that you are not happy with.

A lot of people do go for a dog that they like the look of, a lot of these dogs then end up in rescue homes as the dog is not what the 'owner' thought they were going to be like, we can't hold puppy farms responsible for this totally on their own, but on the generall publics 'ignorance' when choosing a pet that they are going to spend the next 12-15 years of their life with.

I love Huskies and Alaskan Malamutes - beautiful dogs, good looking - but would never own one as I cannot give them what they need.  All we can do as repsonsible dog owners is educate as many people as we can to get the right breed for them irrespective of what the animal looks like.

>> I'm not completely sure on price but I would have thought £900 - £950 a good price to pay for a GOOD Alaskan malamute with an excellent pedigree, show lines, crufts qualified etc - so (and please correct me if I'm wrong) if this is the going rate for one of these puppies then that is where others get there pricing guidelines from.

Unfortunately price is not an indication of quality :( £950 is a little on the high side - I would expect a well reared Malamute from good lines to be approximately £850, sometimes £900.

There are a few decent breeders in Wales (I got both of mine from Wales and they are from what I consider to be good lines) but unfortunately there are also some less respectable breeders that do not endorse, eye check, hip score etc :(

You're right, price is not an indication of good breeding, just going on a litter that I know of that is £900 per pup and comes from good recent crufts qualified lines.

And yes, as I stated above, it's up to us repsonsible dog owners to guide members of the public in the right line and make sure they read up, know about, digest, and can quote backwards chapter and verse everything they NEED to know about their chosen breed BEFORE they buy one.

I heard the other day malamutes are about £850-£950, even upto £1000 for a well bred dog with good lines.

I have also seen one too many ads for huskamutes :(

And do these breeders of *Huskamutes* have a breed rescue set up? Nope :(

why when ppl say i had the pup/dog from Wales does every 1 think there from a puppy farmer???
we are not all in it for the money, and i know plenty of ppl in England that charge to much for there pups

I don't think everyone thinks that all dogs bought from wales are from puppy farmers, the only thing is that the Welsh Assembly did set things up to help farmers diversify and help them to make more - much needed - money.  Therefore there are a higher percentage of farmers who also deal in puppies from Wales - this is what tends to stick in peoples minds, not that all Welsh people are money grabbing puppy farmers without a care to the dogs welfare.  And, it's not like every farm in wales deals in puppies either.

There are a lot of good breeders who ask the correct fee for a well bred dog from all over the UK, but there are (as stated in my last post) a lot of unethical people who are just in it for the big litters, quick money and deal with the popular breeds that they know that they can sell over and over again.

>> ...and deal with the popular breeds that they know that they can sell over and over again.

Often to unsuitable owners who haven't taken the time to thoroughly research the breed and so the poor pup ends up in rescue some time later :(

Ditto above again ;)

I wonder how much you actually know about these grants?
And how strict the guidelines are? Even for a grant to help restore/improve farm outbuildings is time consuming not to mention a pain in the neck!!
There are grants available for farmers to source outside work, retraining, improve their current business etc etc not all resort to being 'puppy farmers' I know a farming family that have an excellent smokery business thanks to a grant!

I'd say the majority of puppy farms are unlicensed establishments which were making money long before these grants became available.

You're right about the puppy farms being there before the grants but these new grants in Wales are specifically for Farms to diversity into breeding dogs.  Who's to say they are not the right people to do it.  They will be policed because they are in the public eye and funded.  I think it was a very badly thought out plan myself and open to misuse.

No one but someone who is deeply interested and studies their breed can be the right person to breed puppies of their chosen breed, anyone else is simply producing a product.

Dpgs are not livestock to be farmed, theya re companion animals, and it is vital that they are bred by people who fully understand the responsibilities involved to breed pups conforming to the breed standard, and for them to be as healthy and good natured as it is humanly possilbe to ensure they are, this cannot be done enmasse.

Did I not say in another post above "And, it's not like every farm in wales deals in puppies either."    All I said was what is out there for farmers to get (through the Welsh Assembly grant)

There are grants for all sorts of people for all sorts of reasons, all have red tape, are a pain in the neck and most people end up not bothering claiming what they can due to all the hassle that goes with it - but for some the hassle is worth it, and they go through it all to get what they want - if it's there people will use it, and abuse it in some situations.

The grant was set up to help farmers diversify - to breed dogs - some have taken it up, some haven't - and yes, there have always been people out there breeding dogs in situations which would now be classed as puppy farms, but before they were overlooked and just classed as mass breeders, dog hoarders, mad old dears who have nothing better to do with their time than breed dogs :)

Boxer Mum

I wasn't responding to your post just adding my own thoughts generally.  I think I may be in the realms of 'mad old dears who have nothing better to do with their time' though, that did make me smile.  I know I've said it about others and now the younger generation is probably saying it about me. 

I would have to echo Brainless on her thoughts re companion animals.  No matter how good a farmers animal husbandry it doesn't make them the right person to breed dogs, again just a thought not aimed at anyone.  Dogs need human companionship in order to develop the skills they need to fit into our world.  That is why so many pups raised, possibly in very sanitary conditions with good food and warmth but without a cuddly human to nip, go on to develop behavioural problems. 

I think the mad old dears might be the subject of another post LOL!!!

Hi, Echo, it's Collie Bum here! ;)  Think that I ought to join the Mad Old Dear Club too! :)

You see I am loosing my marbles.  Wow that was a shocking typo

:) :) Boxer Mum have not have seen it!
Brainless, you have competition!! ;)

I'm lost :)   Ok, so my kids are right, brain capacity of a welk, or something similar, oh no, think I'll have to go back to being blonde now :D

I dare not tell you what I do for a living besides my self employment.  I should be running the country really.

LOL Echo - I wasn't responding to you either but to mygirl :)  (thought I clicked on 'reply' on mygirls post but apologies if I didn't LOL)

And 'mad old dears' is what I used to hear in my younger days, if someone (be they male or female) had lots of puppies for sale most of the time (puppy farms in todays books) they were referred to as a 'mad old dear who had nothing else to do all day but breed dogs'.

I'm actually looking forward to the day when my kids can call me a 'mad old dear' as at the moment I'm just 'blooming mad with the brain capacity of a welk !'  ;)

Welcome to the club

I just realised what the typo was - LOL  God I'm quick on the draw :D

Please refer to Idle Chat

I'm just getting a little sick and tired of the grants being mis-interpreted as Grant=breeding dogs they were put in place for farmers to diversify!!! Yes thats correct but why does everyone think they were purposely put in place JUST to breed puppies? (Not many farmers took this option, least in our area, oooops i live in Wales! and i read the local rags).

The grants were to help farmers diversify into most things! to run on the same premises a viable business opportunity as i said a smokery, even jam making!! ice cream makers!!

Have you got any statistics? i'd be interested to know how many farmers took the grants to build outbuildings/exercise areas for dog breeding.

Mygirl - Yes, grants were set up to encourage Farmers to diversify but diversification into dog breeding was suggested by the Assembly as one possibility. 

I certainly do not and will not hold the vast majority of Welsh Farmers responsible for the industry but take very real issue with the Assembly for encouraging it.

The grants set these people up, then they make so much from this disgusting business which they say by the way has a "wastage" of 78% of all puppies born, they can then live like millionaires and if you don't believe it ask WAG about it. These puppy producers are spread far and wide, they are not just in Wales and we should be campaigning to get the act which encourages this state of affairs over turned.

http://www.wag-ayrshire.org.uk/

Although this group is based in Scotland it is active right across the UK and has traced the trail of puppy farming into Europe.

the OP was not on about grants and neither am i yes they are there but only for about 3 years now.  the problem i am on about is if some1 said they got there pup from Wales every1 thinks puppy farm.  can i ask where is the biggest puppy farm in the UK? i think its in Manchester?

i sold a pup last year, nice little red bitch, her new owner started taking her to ring craft and she was asked about her pedigree and they said it was not a bad 1 then they asked about health and then again all was done.  1 of the ppl there was looking for a red dog so asked where they got the bitch from and she said a nice family home from S. Wales and they turned around and said you have been ripped off and you got her from a puppy farm.  the owner was on the phone within an hour crying, this is the sort of thing i am on about.  PLEASE don't tar us all with the same Brush

The organisation you are thinking of is a Local Authority Licensed Puppy Dealership & they do not breed puppies. They buy in litters of either unregistered puppies bred in the UK or puppies bred in Ireland. Since the KC clamped down on the sale through third parties(like puppy dealers)their sources of KC registered puppies have reduced

Sadly the location of the UK's biggest puppy farm is unknown as they do not advertise the sizes of their operations & many like a guy who was featured on a TV Watchdog program are in Wales, nothing to do with being Welsh or the subisdies but the price of property & the fact that they can be miles from their nearest neighbours thus hiding their trade even more

The only way to curb Puppy Farmers wherever they are located is to educate the pet owning public not to buy from people who deliver puppies in service stations & laybys & to their door, to get them to always ask to see the mum, to always ask & see relevant health tests certificates & only to buy puppies(pedigree)that are KC registered( or ISDS in the case of BC's). Also not to buy on the first viewing either as mainly Puppy Farmers use the singleton puppy left from a litter to sell sick & dying puppies, trading on the must have & sympathy of the buyers. I dispair when people come on here saying registration isn't needed as they only want a pet pedigree dog-these are the very people that end up as the customers of puppy farmers or the dealers.

Having said that I collected my puppy from his breeder in a car park, however the difference being he was on his way to a Dog Show & I know him very well  & could have gone to collect him if I had wished. He is of course from registered health tested parents & the breeding is part of a long planned & researched program of breeding healthier ISDS BC's. Breeders of ISDS BC's have to be members of the ISDS & are bound by their rules(which includes compulsory clear eye tests for breeding dogs)

No I don't think all breeders in Wales are puppy farmers(some of my friends breed dogs in Wales & my first BC was from Welsh bred parents) & yes there are puppy farmers all over the UK of all different scale operations, including people who only have one or two bitches, who breed every season from the earliest age & who KC register their puppies(one look at the BRS reveals this)that however rarely health test, don't show/compete, often have a resident stud dog, & don't raise their litters with any knowledge or care, they breed from non standard colours & coat types & specialise in the popular breeds for a guarenteed sale. Hence the massive number of Labradors, GSDs, Cavaliers, Staffies etc so produced. How do you tell the puppy farmer from the genuine hobby breeder ? The grilling you get when you first contact them, the conditions the litter & bitch are in, the appearance of the dgs compared to good examples & sadly most people learn by making mistakes with the first dog if they don't research enough before buying

I'd agree not not everybody from Wales is a puppy farmer. There are many puppy farmers right across the UK, and there are dealers too.

Education is the way forward, but even with all the education in the world you cannot guarantee a puppy buyer would not buy from a puppy farmer.

My own daughter brought up with dogs all her life, knew not to buy from a puppy farmer, so what did she do? She saw a litter advertised went to see it and felt sorry for the poor sick puppies and so bought the weakest and sickest one home.

OK four years on and he is still here very healthy and bordering on fat having been starved as youngster, but it could have ended very differently, with the dog dying, or being permanently ill, always at the vets or even agressive. This puppy farmer by the way was not in Wales.

I may very well be wrong but I think that the Assembly has only given funding to 5 farms so far.  Two of which I know for certain were already in the puppy farming business before they got their grants. 

Whilst I am very much against this funding the puppy farming industry was alive and thriving well before it's introduction, one of the main reason's in my opinion is due to the fact that farmhouses and land were very cheaply bought in the 70's and 80's - folks who had and have no interest in farming are on the whole responsible for this industry, (certainly many are operated by English folks).  In certain parts of Wales county councils and local veterinary practices have historically allowed various individuals to carry on at will.  I know a great many farmers, all of whom are only interested in farming their land and no self respecting farmer, however hard they may have been hit from foot and mouth or other problems would even dream of venturing into puppy farming.   I would dearly love to know the percentage nationwide of farms involved, this really is a undeserved blight on the average Welsh Farmers reputation.

Wales also has some of the world's finest breeders and some of the oldest lines.  It also has some of the most battle scarred campaigners against puppy farmers who continue to fight against the industry and stupidity of the Assembly to continue with the grant long after the TV cameras and publicity disappeared, one such group met with the Assembly today in Cardiff and lets all hope that they managed to have a productive meeting.

The current top breeder in our breed lives right in the middle of Wales, it is quite sad that people avoid aa good breeder just because of their location.

I agree somehow the publc need eduating that the way to buy a pedigree pup is to seek a breeder or check one out through the breed clubs who will ahve their fingers ont eh pulse of what is going on int their bred, and where a lot of the bad eggs are.

Also that people need to be prepared to wait and realise tha good pups are rarely available right away, as there will only be a few pups in any litter that haven't been prebooked.

No, as I've said before not all people - be they farmers or not - are puppy farmers, and yes there are some very good kennels in Wales producing excellent lines.  Yes there are puppy farms all over the uk - and have been for many a year even before the term 'puppy farm' was so widely used, they were called lots of things (including the mad old dears quote !)  I am totally against puppy farms no matter where they are and encourage people to buy from reputable breeders, and to NEVER buy because they feel sorry for the pup.

Nearly four years ago I bought a lovely springer cross from a lady over here - the mum and dad were both working dogs and kenneled outside - however, the pups were also outside in a pen, only two left when I got there, I assumed that these pups were just outside on a lovely warm spring day to make it easier to view, fresh air whatever (can't remember all the thoughts through my mind at the time) - however, by the time my pup was 10 months old I noticed that he had an aversion to strangers, he was spooked easily and at 10 months he was scared by two tourists over here who seemed to come from nowhere.  I took this in my stride and just put it down to a shy dog and as a result I ended up walking him where he wouldn't get scarred (big mistake !) then, when he was 1 and a half he developed chronic bronchitis, no-one truly knows why, we guess chemicals in carpet freshner etc and have stopped using all sprays, powders - his lungs are scarred and as soon as the weatger is cr*p (windy, rainy, cold, damp) he starts coughing again - in fact the past few nights I have had virtually no sleep due to him coughing all the way through. 

Now I have since been speaking to others who got dogs from the same lady as me and they all have similar problems and this goes back 6 years - so it wasn't an accidental mating like she implied, she breeds crossbreeds on purpose - in my view a classic puppy farmer, breeding from her multitude of dogs for money.  From October onwards I dread the bad weather as I do not know what my dog will be like, how bad he will be or even what I can do for him besides benylin and tlc - he will be four in February but the way he has been in particular last night and this morning I can't help thinking that he may not see his fourth birthday.  DO I like puppy farmers ? No, they should all be banned, shut down, got rid of, removed from society completely - do I think all breeders are puppy farmers ?  NO.   Do I think all farmers in Wales are puppy farmers ?  NO.

I do despair though with some people - only the other day a mum up the school had a cute little puppy, she complained that she had to go all the way to Wales to get him because no other breeder closer had a pup available.  She then went on to say '..still, we got him from a place in Wales, he was really cheap, they even offered to part deliver him for us but we wanted a day out anyway so we went there to pick him up oursleves.'   Yes the pup was cute, with weapy eyes, overgrown claws and shaking with nerves at only 8 weeks of age !  But this is classic of what us repsonsible people have to deal with every day, trying to educate people that to get their perfect pup they may have to wait for a good breeder to have one available - everyone is in a rush, supply and demand, you can't blame them really, as long as stupid people buy from these people then they will continue - shut one down and another opens up.

I have just been sent this article in an email from a Dog Newsletter, I know that puppy farming goes on all over the country and I am not knocking Wales in particular, but it just goes to show that even Harrods aren't that particular where they buy their puppies from. Anyone buying one from them would probably think they would be getting the bees knees, although personally I think that shops should be banned from selling puppies.

Stop Puppy Farming 
Harrods has stopped using a Wales puppy farm to stock its pet shop after it was exposed as part of a joint undercover investigation by the BBC and Dogs Trust, the UK's largest dog welfare charity. The investigation highlighted once again the problem of puppy farming across the country.

The investigation was instigated following a tip-off from a former Harrods employee who was concerned at the large numbers of dogs being supplied to the store from Windy Rise Farm.

Catherine Gillie, former veterinary nurse and Dogs Trust Assistant Field Director, managed to get inside the farm in Wales as part of the investigation. She says "Conditions inside this puppy farm were absolutely horrific. Both puppies and their mothers displayed obvious signs of neglect, starved of affection and proper care, and were in kept in appalling conditions, with no proper bedding, no access to the outside world, and unable to even see over the top of their pens."

Regards, Sue & Sasha