I have started this topic already, but since that was not the place to discuss this I'm opening the same subject here.
This is just a foreigner's observation. I come from Continental Europe/Slovenia, but visit UK a couple of times a year. I'm not sure if you see it in the same way, but every time I go out in the evening or just drive around Croydon (or any other town or city) I see the same sight...... drunk, out of control kids making fulls of themselves. I know drinking is a universal problem, but I have to admit I have not seen it as bad anywhere else in Europe. We all like to go out and have fun time to time, but this is just a bit to extreme. Looks like today's youth is a bit too hedonistic. It's all about fun, sex (that seems to be a major problem as well, as I have never seen so many teenage parents anywhere else) and no responsibilities what so ever.

Now that's me expressing my opinion..... what do you think about the subject? Do you agree with me or have some other point of view? Just thought it was something important to talk about......

Sadly, I have to agree with you :(

I'm not so sure what the answer is either - apart from making certain that Offlicences do not sell alcohol to under-age kids - and I do know that some have done so, quite blatently, because it is virtually all the money they are making.

Margot

One point you say kids? so i presume you mean the teenagers.

Its no secret that 'kids' are more grown up quicker than in our day the problem i find is there is nothing else for them to do! Surely its not all down to the parents? you can't lock a 17yr old up in a bedroom to watch DVD's every night and i doubt your average 17yr old would even bother with a youth club (ooh the shame!)

Maybe in other countries there are schemes to involve the youth of today more than we have in this country? we get the statistics we just don't get the specifics as to why.

Just an observation.

i think its getting to the be the norm now isn't it? I watched a documentary the other night about teens and binge drinking-it was quite scary.

i'm 25, and i must admit that at 13+ i was out drinking with mates at the weekend. I was probably an eyesore more than anything, as i wasn't loud and mouthy, didn't do any damage etc, but it didn't make it right. We used to knock about in a big group (upto 25 sometimes ) near the heart of a seaside town. We did the strolling on the beach, people taking drugs etc.

i don't have a clue why we did it. I casually drinked at mates houses from a young age, and then it just spilled to the streets. My parents eventually clicked, and weren't too happy but thought i was more likely to do it if they say not to, so they let me get on with it. I must admit though, i was always the responsible one. I would stop drinking before most people (probably because i could drink like a fish, and would have cost too much to have gotten drunk!!) and watch out for everybody else. Doesn't make it right though.

oh the days...........

nicola

I was the same, at 13 I was knocking back cans of fosters with my mates - god knows why cos I hated the stuff :rolleyes:

we werent too loud and obnoxious but there was a large group of us hanging outside the shops so we were probably quite intimidating.

This is a topic that worries me greatly. I am always amazed at the light-hearted way that people talk about drinking alcohol - and I am talking about adults here - not teenagers. Even discussion on here, in a fairly recent topic about the level of hangovers, was in a very blase fashion. Adults set children (their own, in particular) a very bad example :( How many people will get drunk (or drink a lot) at Xmas this year in front of their children ?? Lots, I expect :( How can children then be expected to respect alcohol when their parents don't ?? Please take a hard look at your own alcohol consumption and then think whether you set a good example of responsible drinking - do you stick to the recommended alochol limits ?? If a woman drinks more than 7 units in a session then she is binge drinking - so is it just teenagers ??

Sorry for the rant - but don't blame the teenagers, blame the parents

Daisy

Lets not get drunk at xmas we are PARENTS!!! roflmao!!  Why not push the boat out and say lets not talk about sex education to our children it puts ideas into their minds!!

My parents let me have a snowball at xmas and of course at that point i was destined to be a binge drinking alcoholic! :D :D :D

I'm sorry if you find the topic funny :( But, I am perfectly serious. Where did I say that children shouldn't have ANY alochol ? Do you accept that parents should lead by example ? Then why is it so wrong to say that they shouldn't get drunk in front of their children ?? I care about my children's long term health - do you ?

Daisy

Daisy below the belt hun, i never got personal.

So, Mygirl, you were not making fun of my post ????

Daisy

Maybe i was but what gave you the right to say i didn't care about my childrens health?
My daughter is stuck with me 24/7 day in day out caring to her every need!! Unless i get a nurse under the welsh crap health or education dept. (but no-one wants to pay!)

Just for you Daisy do you know how much i'd give to see my daughter walk down the street unaided? never mind hang about on street corners!!

And a group of kids getting their kicks on a street corner bother you? You have the 'experience' get involved with a youth club like i do!! lets not bleat on a forum do something!

I have no idea of your personal circumstances, nor could I be expected to have. If you make fun of a perfectly serious post, then you should expect the sort of reply that you got. I didn't say that you DIDN'T care about your children's health. You implied that it was extremely funny that I should care about mine.

Daisy

""I care about my children's long term health - do you ""

You asked i told you, no you don't know me which is why you maybe should not generalise!!!
I didn't know your parent died of alcohol abuse no more than you know why i like to let go at xmas did you!
But i never got personal :(

Get off your arse and do something then! go give talks to youth groups/schools! this will crawl you but the said daughter with spina bifda was born to me while 15 yrs old(i wasnt drunk and my parents were well respected maybe tooooo much so that i was sheltered)  i give talks, i don't sit on my arse and bleat on forums.

I think its stupid to hide things from children, I saw my parents drunk, it didnt force me to go out and get drunk.  I hung around with a group of kids and believe it or not thats what kids do - experiment. I started smoking at 13, but before that I moaned at my dad every time he lit up, I certainly didnt start smoking because of him, in fact he gave up a couple of years before I started. I have smoked cannabis before too, but ive never seen my parents smoke it

I think that if parents get drunk in front of their children they should be adult enough to show the after-effects the next day - and blame only themselves.

IMO a lot of problems start when the dreaded 'alcohol' (eek not that oh no!) is demonised. If it's a normal aspect of life, like having a salad, or a packet of crisps, or a fruit juice, it loses its sanctified (and therefore tempting) mystique. After all, it's only illegal to give alcohol to children under 5 years of age (let's ignore gripe water, which is almost pure alcohol). We always gave our son the opportunity to try what we were drinking - because it wasn't sweet and sugary he didn't like it. Alcopops truly are evil.

If children grow up knowing that alcohol is no big deal they're less likely to overdo it. JMO. :)

Totally agree, JG :) But what message do we give to out children when WE have more than just a couple of drinks ??

I think that alcohol is more dangerous to our society than cigarettes and drugs.

Daisy

Daisy in one of our classes this year at school we all gave a presentation on different drugs...alcohol sounded the worst.... or maybe that was becaus eI only said the worst and nastiest results!? :D

Unfortunately alcohol is a socially accepted drug. I hope that few people here have the 'pleasure' (as I did) of seeing a parent die from the affects :(

Daisy

I watched a loved parent die of the results of smoking. In my mind, that's worse than alcohol.

Maybe - but living with an alcoholic is not very pleasant either :(

Daisy

Daisy, you obviously had a parent that was an alcoholic, that must have been awful for you.  did you become a heavy drinker because of it ?

No I didn't, fortunately, but my father came from a long line of drinkers - my uncle, grandfather, gt.grandfather all died from the affects of drinking. I'm not teetotal :D - but just find the whole culture of drinking very worrying :(

Daisy

so if you grew up with an alcoholic but didnt become one what makes you think other children will drink just because their parents do

Infortunately it is a bit like wifebeaters who were brought up with it, asre more likely to go the same road.  My exh husband is a third generation Alcoholic and wehn I met him hated his Father for being one.  I am hoping with my children not having freown up with him that they may be beter able to avoid it, but society (peers) doesn't help me as a parent.

My ex husband was an is an Alvoholic, thinksleeping inthe park here, as that is what he does these days.

In my family alcohol consuption was rare, maybe an odd glass at Christmas Birthdaysd and when visitors came.

Yet I still had a problem with my daughter being out of control out with her mates from 13 1/2 to 15 1/2.  She still goes out drinking with her freinds at weekends now that she is 18, but is quite sensible generally (after all it is money she has to earn that gets spent!), but a few of her mates are over that fine line.

I doubt there are any teens that wqoudl dream of going out without alcohol being part ot the equation, and that I find sad.

My view is that alcohol is just another drug, that can be used or abused.

A drunken adult can give a child one of two messages - either the child will be revolted and not want to go down that road, or will think it the right thing to do.

The turning point comes when the adult sobers up. If the child sees how terrible the adult feels (and of course the adult needs to be honest enough to admit how stupid they were ;)) then the child realises that there are unpleasant consequences. As someone far more sensible than I once said;

"A fool learns by his own mistakes. A wise man learns by those of others."

That's fine if the person realises that they have gone too far. Unfortunately, lots of people think that there is nothing wrong with their drinking :( They think that they have control and can stop it when they like.  It is only in later years when it starts to take it's toll on their health, the doctor tells them to cut down and by then it's too late, the damage is done and often they can't cut down :(

Daisy

Like obesity, then. That kills people before their time.

Basically over-indulgence or addiction in anything is Bad. Moderation in all things is the way to go.

But people know that they are obese or at least, putting on weight :) Unfortunately, the affects of heavy drinking are often hidden for years until it is often too late to do anything about them - either medically or through giving up drinking.

Daisy

So True JG!  I have been allowed alochol since I was 12 (half glass of red wine with sunday dinner) and I have never been a big drinker.  With my parents I see alcohol as being a drink, not something I'm not allowed to have, so will have lots of it! :)

lol - hi everyone I've just got back from the pub! :D

I know it's still early but there's only so much orange and lemonade one can drink.

Be back soon after I've eaten my curry

I guess it is up to parents to set an example. But Teenagers will try it even if it wasn't demonstrated at school. I know I did. But not till I was in high school (well, still too early I reckon). But when I was younger, I was pretty busy doing other stuff. My parents made me play violin, piano and had ballet classes..... so between that and all the school work I didn't really have much time to think about doing crazy things on the street ;) . At that time I thought I was so unlucky, but now I see that I really had it good. My parents cared!! I will give my kids freedom and opportunity to think with their own head, I'll occupy them like my parents did, but I'll also introduce them all the stuff we're talking about here. i'll tell them about drugs, sex and alcohol abuse and show them what happens if you aren't being responsible about it....... everything else is up to them. Just give them a good start and hope for the best. And let them know they'll have to be the ones that pay for every bad decision they make. In the end of the day we're all alone with our sins.

Anyway, not to moralize here (I've had my "bad days" like everyone else), I also think it depends on the culture. I noticed many people in England and Ireland spend their free time at Pubs. It's an every day event. We go to bars and such as well, but mostly just on weekends to relax from work. Every nation has it's habits I guess, and that's the way it is ;) .......

My main gripe about pubs is that the soft drinks are more expensive than the alcoholic ones! If they seriously want people to limit their alcohol consumption in social situations they have to make alternatives attractive.

Local Miners Welfare is heaving on a Friday night with underage drinkers. I'm talking kids that are still at school. A committee member admitted to me that if it wasn't for the money they took on Friday nights the MW would have closed by now and that's why they turn a blind eye. There is so much trouble there, police and riot vans every weekend and bouncers on the doors. And every weekend it's the same drunken people (schoolkids) causing the same drunken fights. You can see them coming from around the back of the MW readjusting their clothes etc, most not even capable of standing. I have two teenage sons and the stories they can tell about drugs and drink are shocking. I consider myself lucky as my two lads have grown up without the need for drink, drugs or 'fags'. You can only advised your kids and try to guide them the best why you see fit, you can't be with them 24/7. When they used to come home from school on a Friday afternoon and all their mates were discussing the night ahead, my lads would say they'd got to babysit or make some other excuse rather than admit there was no way in this world that Mum wouldn't allow them to go.  

Teenage drinking is awsome , if theres no abuse and driving involved :D. I ofcourse was a bad-boy , drugs drinking whatever and that was just my lifestyle. I grew up a very successful guy but i still regret things ive done in the past. My sons at 14 ask for a cold beer once in awhile which they get , but they know getting drunk and smashed is not ok :p

This is a hard one as i have grown up with my dad as a drinker,but as a teenager i chose to drink with  my mates when i was a teenager, and i still lke a drink now.

IMO for what it's worth, I think if you read through this thread just about everyone is hitting on a common theme. The drinking culture in this country is down to socialisation.  Socialisation via media, parents and peers - what's left?  Parents should set an example but in this country they themselves have already been socialised into the drinking culture.  Unless you belong to particular religious groups, just about every social event will be accompanied by alcohol, private or public functions, Christmas, weddings, funerals even my son's football club's annual awards ceremony held in a school had a licenced bar.  In addition we have soap operas on TV such as Corrie, Eastenders and Emmerdale where most scenes are shot in a pub (I wish I had their money), It's all peak viewing and all made to look very normal.  This is socialising us into accepting alcohol as normal everyday social event.  I think we have irony here because swearing is seen as disgusting and immoral and is only allowed post watershed.  Although swearing is not pleasant, it never killed anyone and I've never heard anything after 9pm that I haven't heard in a school playground. 

Whether or not parents show a responsible attitude to alcohol many children will experiment with alcohol if they are allowed to have access to it.  I don't mean access as in the supervised tasting of alcohol at home, I mean access to experiment with their friends.  I've already mentioned that licenced premises such as off licences still sell to children as young as 14 and I know of pubs that will also turn a blind eye to underage drinking, you can't blame the parents for that.

Like the vast majority of parents I have tried to bring up my children responsibly, but my children are not attached to me 24/7 and so I need to rely on the support of the other role models in their lives to support me in my quest, I'm thinking particularly of youth support and school support.  My 2 daughters were introduced to Gymnastics and swimming clubs pre-school age and judo at 7 yrs.  My eldest daughter played violin and my 2nd daughter played cello.  My eldest daughter is very strong minded and refuses point blank to bow to peer pressure, she does drink occasionally but not much and was never one for the clubbing scene.  My 2nd daughter revelled in being one of the crowd, belonging to clubs and playing cello and going to the best school in town didn't make an iota of difference to her attitude.  She did what her friends did, right or wrong.  My son was introduced to swimming as a baby then short tennis, football and ju jitsu.  He still plays for a football club and is also in the school basket ball and cricket teams. So far all his spare time is spent playing or watching football and I can only wait and see which sister's footsteps he will follow regarding peer pressure, because I feel I have done all I can to educate all 3 of them to the dangers of alcohol. 

I wnt round to soem of the pubs I knew my daughter went to with friends with ewhr picture to tell them she was undergae and not to serve her, doubt it did a lot of good, certainly put a bigt strain on our relationship at the time, but I was at my wits end.

Have to agree there, the only reasonably priced soft option is soda water with cordial (blackcurrant or Line) :D

my dad is an alcholoic but won't admit it,  he has put my mam through hell and back and she just gets on with life, i have seen the devastation first hand that drinking to excess can cause and the times i have caught my mam crying because of him,
i used to like a drink, and then i realised i had a problem when the first thing i did in the morning was get up and pour a very very large glass of tia maria and knock it back, and i always say to people you know it was getting bad when i prefer tia maria on my cornflakes to milk, people laugh at that but that is what it was getting to,so i stopped drinking altogether and it was not easy, i put my family through hell but 4 years down the line i am better not cured but better, i know that i could kick off any time the reason i say this is my daughter ran away from home and i went out and bought a bottle of my tipple took the top off and drank from the bottle neat, when OH caught me and tried to take the bottle off me, i went to grab a knife and threaten him, he stood his ground and i am glad he did it took me two days to calm down and say sorry to him, he said my reaction had frightened him as i had been clean for 4 years and just to kick off like that, i do miss a drink and when i have had a good win in breed or agility i feel like celebrating, but i let everyone else do that for me,and watch them all get drunk and make fools of themselves on my behalf.
i am not cured but i am a better person for not drinking
carol

Judgedredd,  Well done to you.  I know alcoholics and am aware how difficult it is for them to abstain from drinking.  From what I understand, the first hurdle in giving up alcohol when it is a problem is to acknowledge that you have a problem in the first place.  You are special indeed because you saw the problem yourself and then acted upon it in a positive way.

I wish you all the very best :)