Hi,
My bitch is ready to be mated and showes all signs by standing for the dog and flagging her tail discharge very pale pink ,but the stud dog just wants to play, he is 2 and a half years old and its his 1st time , He has great bloodlines , great results from health checks and i really want to use this particular dog.
Any hints or tips to get him going would be appreciated.  He is paying attention to her rear end but just not trying to mount at all.
Do i put him there to get him started?

Are you the owner of the stud and the bitch.  Your best bet is to go back to your breeder and have them advise you.  If you do not own the stud dog, his owner should know what to do.  If the stud dog owner doesn't know and your breeder cant help look for an experienced stud.  Have you done a pre mate test  on your bitch to see if she is indeed ready to mate.  Your vet will do this.

Don't forget to have all your relevant health check documents ready for your stud dog owner to check.  If they don't want to know about health checks you could find yourself with an unhealthy litter or a possibly a law suit should any of the pups suffer health problems that should have been tested for.

A stud dog will usually know if a bitch is ready or not. My bitch showed all the signs but the dog was just not interested until the following day. If he isn't interested i would take her back the next day and try again. Have you tried moving her about and waving her rear end in his face this sometimes works. He just might not know what to do yet as he is an inexperienced dog.

Hi , would suggest that you find another stud dog, if it is his first time at 2 and a half i'm afraid they have left it to late.a stud dog needs to be used at 10 months and again at 18mths but not given regular work untill the age of 2 , I had the same problem when i first started out I took my girl to a dog that had no idea what to do and owners that had never done it before hadnt researched, I ended up spending 3 days going back and forth spending all day there! she ended up missing, hope this helps Ange

Sorry, but now that we have the facility to hipscore, no dog of a breed that's prone to HD should be used at stud before he's been scored - and that means not before 12 months of age.

Sorry but don't agree with the age thing. I know of plenty stud dogs that have not been used until the age of at least 1 as they have to wait to be hip scored and also to see what they are going to look like once mature. 

My BC stud(who had a 3:3=6 hip score at 3 1/2)was nearly 4 when he was first used & never needed to be shown or helped

It's a load of rubbish that dogs need to be used under a year old

In some breeds it is actually advised to wait until both doig & bitch are over 2 1/2 before being bred from because of genetic problems that manifest later in life

:rolleyes: no wonder some breeds have health problems

I couldn't agree more. My boy's sire was 4 1/2 when first used at stud. Our breed club have it written into our Code of Ethics that a dog should not be used at stud before 18 months of age. IMO using a dog at stud at 10 months old whilst they are still a pup themselves and without any health checks is downright irresponsible and detrimental to the breed. Malamutes are prone to Hereditary Cataracts (juvenile onset) and if you were to breed them young there is the chance that they would develop the condition after they have been bred from :(

Yes in my breed we have fanconi syndrome which doesn't usually show itself until the dog or bitch is 3 or over. I have never heard of a dog being used at 10 months in any breed.

Rubbish.  In my breed a male is very lucky to get used before 18 months (to allow for Hip scoring and eye test results), and often will be two or three before getting a bitch, when it has matured sifficiently to assess it's qualities properly and proven itself in the ring.

A dog of my breeding will be 7 next month and mated his first bitch in March, and just had his third litter born today with a fourth due mid November.  He won his first CC last year and second this.

The male I am planning to use is also nearly 7 and has sired just one litter about 18 months ago, even though he is a Champion and been placed twice in Champi0onship show groups.

I'm very sorry to of coursed a stir i was mearly passing on infomation that was given to me after a bad experience by a very experienced breeder, I thought this was an infomation exchange!

I think your experienced breeder isn't so experienced after all!

i'm not here to start a slanging match but who are you to know that!

All I can say is that she well maybe experienced but it's not a very responsible thing to be using dogs so young that they are still puppies themselves.

It is - but it needs to be correct, up-to-date information ;). And that's what's happened.
:)

I know that years ago many of the toy breeds used to say for a male to be used before 12 months.  In my breed that I have now they also should not be used until they've had their hips scored and eyes tested.

My stud lined his first bitch aged just under 4yrs. He lined her okay and again 2 day's later. It did take him about 20 mins to work it out though LOL. The bitch had 7 pups. He has since lined 3 other bitch's and they are in pup or had pups. All his pups are spoken for before they are even born. I had a few people after his lines at 18 month's old, but waited as I wanted him to become a Champ,,,In time the stud will work it out. Hope all goes well for you.

What breed does your breeder have? Although I think 10 months is a bit young there ARE breeds where if a boy doesn't get started quite young there is a good chance that he will not mate at all. And there are still breeds that are not hip tested because HD is clinically unknown.

Hi dogue de bordeaux's

Hi, in my bad experience the stud owners mother tried a rebecca lous (the farm) I held my girl, my partner had to pick up the stud and put him in place while she got him going unfortunatly they werent lined and he ended up coming out? all over the place! very distressing for both dogs aswell

I think it just depends on the individual dog,i have a 2 year old male who had never mated a bitch before(see my posts)and had a hell of a job getting him interested properly,and even when he did get interested he was all over the place and it took him a good half hour of trying before he managed to hit the spot,any amount of help i offered to guide him to the right spot he lost interest and preferred to play instead.On the other hand i have a young 9 month old boy who i have just allowed to have his first mating and he was straight on and tied within a minute,turned himself no problem as if he was a real pro.I had his hips screened at 7 months,and like my older boy who has a score of 3/3=total 6, his looked identical and i am to take him back to be scored in january when he reaches 12 months,i have both x-rays here if any one would like to see them,obviously there could be some change in the joints between now and january but like the vet said it would be minimal and even if it wasnt as good as the other boys score,it will still be well below the BMS.

I thought that the youngest that a dog could be scores was 12 months?  Apart from one seriously experienced Vet who does little else than X-ray for hips, I've found other Vets to be wildly out in their guestimate of the score.:(
You're very lucky to have such a knowledgable Vet.

Why the hurry though.  At 9 months there is still a long way to go and the promising puppy may yet not make the adult you had hoped for.  Character cannot yet be fully evaluated, let alone his physical attributes. 

We all know that males are at their keenest diring puberty (as in most species) but this does not mean they are ready to be used for reproduction.  Many health issues cannot be ascertained until much later. 

As for hip scoring, even though we can scored at 12 months in the USA a final grading cannot be given until over 2 years of age, and only a preliminary diagnosis prior to that. 

There is really no excuse to use a dog so young, and if it takes them a little while to get the hang of things when older, so be it, just needs a little patience on our part.

I have certainly shortlisted in my mind as potential studs some lovely promising pups, only to review my view of theri qualities when mature.  I would always prefer to use an older dog for a young bitch and a young dog (18 months to 2 years) on an older bitch.  That way I have at least increased my chances of avoiding late onset health problems in at least one of the pair, and hopefully been able to evalutate the offspring of at least one of the pairing.

Where do you live?   I didn't think that the BVA would score a dog's hips under the age of 12 months??????   Or did you have him scored after using him at stud?

Margot

they had their vet x-ray the dog as a pup and guess at how god the hips might be. :(

I know that there was a scheme many years ago run by the GSD league to screen puppy hips but it proved totally unreliable & was closed.

Unless the vet was as experienced as Jill Read(where my Roy will be going to be done)I wouldn't rate a GP vet's opinion at all. The BVA do not score under 12 months so were this puppies x rays where sent to be scored is a mystery

For example my first male BC had a limp & was immediately diagnosed as HD by my GP vet who wanted to X ray him, I refused & popped up to Jill's who did the Xray(she did it as if he was going to be scored)& was so sure they were not the cause of the limp as they were so good she sent them off to be scored & they cam back at a total of 6 & he was over 12 months. She sugeested a chiropracter & the chiro sorted the problem

I had this concern with a vet who my friend was seeing.  He actually handed her the form for hip scoring which said dogs should be 12 months old before this procedure would be carried out and then said he was willing to hip score her 6 month pup, under anesthetic.  Not only was she too young, according the the written information he had just handed out and I have always understood it is not wise to anethetise a pup unnecessarily, he couldn't send the plates anywhere for evaluation. 

He had actually made the appointment for her to be xrayed.

It Beggars belief.

I wanted my puppy's rear dew claws taken off(& still do)but after talking to my vet & another couple of the vets at the practice we(that's the corporate we)have decided to leave them until he's 6 months They are not attached via a metatarsal so will be a relatively easy operation. John(my main vet)wasn't very keen to operate under 6 months of age

I dont wish to get into a debate over this,i have just offered my own advice to the original poster.I stated quite cleary that this 9 month old has not been scored,simply x-rayed at 7 months to see what the hips looked like.It is very hard when you raise a pup from 8 weeks only to find that despite him or her being of good type/temprement etc...that the hips are no good,x-raying early identifies any problems with the hip joints and so we are then able to rehome the pup quicker and at a younger age,making the experience a lot easier for not only ourselves but for the pup too.This is actually quite common practice nowadays,many more breeders than who'd admit do it,not that it is something to hide anyway.Many of you may disagree with this,but you have your opinions and i have mine,really people should stick to the original topic as if i'd invited people for a debate i would of started a thread my self on this.Another reason for x-raying early is because i like to start a dog off young as i do believe that the longer you leave it,the harder it can be to get them interested,i think as soon as they show interest they COULD be allowed to start if the situation is right,i had a bitch in season when he was 6 months and he showed no interest at all then,however 9 months may be a little early but i had a request from someone with a lovely bitch who would compliment each other and decided to let him try,and then when i come to put him to my bitch next year,he will hopefully be proven.This pup comes from a long long line of low hipscored stock of good type and temprement,and is already looking very promising.Like i said i have his x-ray,if any of you who may know a little better wish to have a look at them your more than welcome.I have seen many hip x-rays,good and bad and this one is probably one of the best i've seen so far,even slightly better than my recent boy who was scored 3/3,but then he is older so this has to be taken into account.This particular vet does not anesthetise dogs for hip scoring,instead giving a sedation via an injection,as for pups under a year old they dont recieve any sedation and certainly not anesthetic,and yes they do lay still so they can be lined up properly,my dogs are very well behaved lol. 

chelseablue

You have your opinion & I have mine which backed up by the results of the puppy screening that was carried out & sorry the results were not reliable at all.of the dogs score at 12 months & over Using a dog before maturity can result in more pronounced character changes as a lot of toy people find out & especially now as in several breeds there are genetic problems that manifest well after a year old & for which their is no DNA test yet & this including PRA for BC's

BTW giving the sedation is just as risky was giving a GA(that came from a vet who uses sedation BTW)

IMHO using a puppy at stud in any breed is foolish at best

so why is it different here then than it is in say germany,america,they say 2 years minimum,bva here say 12 months,who in your opinion is right?Also i clearly stated that no pups under 12 months including my boy are given sedation,only the dogs over 12 months who are to be scored.

GSDs are X rayed & graded at 12 months in Germany not two years old & as they(the SV) were the first breed governing body(in the world) to bring in compulsory X raying I think the rest of the breeds are the same(the BC's I sent were certainly all X rayed at 12 vmonths)

The OFA rules are two years of age presumably it's their veterinary peope that decided this

so in your honest opinion do you think there will be much change in his hips over 5 months?

There could be I don't know what breed your dog is but certainly with the GSDs that went through the puppy screening scheme(& there were a lot as it was subsidised)poor looking hips were better & some normal looking hips were worse & none were very accurate & these were looked by trained scrutineers not just an experienced vet

TBH a dog that isn't interested in matings over 12 months might have been just the same under these  age. With my home bred GSD he wasn't used until he was 4, my import at 18 moths & my BD at just over 4. Of all of them the BC needed no help or encouragement ever & he was a very keen stud & it never changed his character as he was fully mature mentally & physically The GSDs usually needed help with the bitches being held(one would only mate a bitch if I held the bitch !)

I have a great problem with young dogs being used at stud, my youngest boy Cavalier has SHM & his brother(who is a carrier at the very best)was used at stud at 8 months old Months later their father was PTS aged under 3 because of the pain caused by the SHM. Had the now veterinary advice been adhered to I wouldn't have my boy but I also wouldn't have a dog with SHM(their father was under 2 1/2 when they were born)Lou's brother is still being bred from spreading SHM through the breed.

In ISDS BC's you get a temporary certificate if theone of  parents are under 2 (& ofiicially screened or DNA tested clear of CEA) & you can only change it for an A(denoting from parents eye tested clear)one when both parents are tested clear. This is still current & will not be changed as there is no DNA test for PRA in BC's yet. You cannot register puppies from untested parents over the age of 2 or who don't have a current eye certificate for PRA(& CEA if they are not DNA tested) Of course with KC BC's you can register puppies from eye test failures as well as untested parents. The only difference is the eye test status of the parents is on the KC cert. Clear PRA certs cannot be issued under 2 years of age

Thanks for your lengthy reply,i can see where your coming from with regards to your experience with the cavs,but are you saying then that cavs shouldnt be bred from until they are at least 3 years old,which is when you say the SHM manifested itself as he wasnt screened for the condition,or maybe there is no screening at present,i dont know because i dont know much about the breeds specific conditions,beautiful breed though.My young boy is a GSD and i have heard it said that bad hips at a young age can get better and vice versa,but that is only when there is a very minor movement.I had a bitch x-rayed once who looked excellent on one side but it was quite obvious that the joint was out of the socket on the other side and she was screened at 10 months,there is no way hers would have improved,whereas my boys are both very tight in the sockets on both sides so if there was some movement in the next 5 months,it would be very minimal unless of course he had an accident and injury resulted but then at least we'd have the previous x-ray to compare to.

I would never use a GSD under a year old even if the hip screen was showing perfect hips. What is the rush my boy spent 6 months in quarantine & with no contact with female dogs in season(he came in with a bitch puppy but the two were not kennelled together)& he had no problem in mating a very reluctant proven bitch at 18 months ?

There is far too much emphasis IMHO in breeding dogs early, it certainly would not happen in the wild & dogs really do need to be fully mature

Don't forget GSD don't actually stop growing until they are 18 months physically & mentally some even later. In germany(no matter what you think of their breed type)a dog has to have past it's breed survey & BH as well as being X rayed before being used at stud & even the top dogs have their stud work limited in numbers

They must be very well behaved to lie still with the weight put on their legs to stretch them out straight as required.
:)

the pup is placed on his back,the vet tail end and my self head end,he was totaly relaxed i had to hold his elbows and pull them toward me whilst the vet stretched his legs out straight,if you look at the x-ray it is really straight and in line.:0)

I didn't know it was legal for the vet or anyone else to be that close to the x-rays. I know our vet makes sure he and the nurses are out of the room. I imagine you had to sign a legal disclaimer waiving any rights to sue for personal injury resulting.

dont know,but i did have to wear a big heavy tabbard lol,like the ones hospitals use,dont remember signing any forms when my young son had his leg x-rayed either,just wore the heavy bib.

Yes my dogs were only sedated for their hips to be xrayed.  The point I was trying to make was generally vet anesthetized before xray, this one certainly would have and didn't have any expertise in the matter at all, something people new to this need to look at. 

I am not trying to put you down.  I wish I had used my boy sooner, but at 12 months he had only had some very minor wins and I didn't know if he would be champ material.  He is now 3 and a bit with lots of BOB's and a Crufts class win but no idea how to mate.  Poor boy is going for lessons next week, if the bitch in question doesn't maul him to death first (only joking).  I really hope he gets the hang of it.

Yes i know what you mean,i used my own vet last year and he anesthetised,it was horrible,i had to take the dog at 8 in the morning and ring up at 2 pm to see how he was,i was eventually allowed to collect him at 4.30 pm but by this time i was getting a little paranoid that he wasnt coming round properly from the anesthetic.