Dear All,

I have a post on 'Behaviour' about our puppy going backwards in terms of house training (5 month old lab bitch) - I got some useful advice...she could be about to come into season....

Kiera is my first dog, I have 3 cats and a brilliant, trusted vet practice.  We have been advised that there is no medical reason why Kiera shouldn't be spayed at 6 months before her first season.  We have an appointment booked.  Of course if she comes in to season now we will have to delay until the right time.

I've read lots on here about it being wrong to spay before the first season and to be fair a couple of people have said we should wait one season/two.... I've been advised by the vet that this is 'out of date thinking' and the vet is of course the professional - I've asked lots of questions about how it will affect her personality/hormonally - will she stay a puppy forever, blah, blah, blah.  I was happy with their responses.

Trouble is I love my little girl to bits and I don't want to make a mistake with her now when we've done so well.  I have good reason for wanting to get her 'done' - we don't want to breed with her and we trust someone else to walk her/look after her for 2 or 3 hours a day - it's a big risk and a lot to ask for someone else to take responsibility for a bitch in season....

Please can I have some constructive advice on what to do and if anyone can give me examples of their own experiences of early spaying that would be very helpful adn will help me to make an informed choice.

Many thanks
Nicky

General thoughts on spaying in the US is for early spaying - over here, it is generally considered to be soon enough after 1st or 2nd season - half way between - eg if she comes into season every 6 months, then 3 months after 2nd season.

Its generally considered that the bitch will have matured emotionally that bit more.   I personally would go along this route - I think vets are often keen to get the money in more quickly!

Margot

thank you, that's what's worrying me.  Annoying when we've said our intention is to have her spayed so they will get the money eventually!
Thank you
Nx

Ask your vet what are hormones for?

do they have any influence on physical growth?
Do they have any influence on mental maturity?

If you look into the function of hormones in any animal they are not isolated to "sex" but a lack of them affects growth and outlook.

I spay all my bitches but I certainly would not do so prior to 12 - 18 months at the earliest.

IMHO if you have no overwhelming reason to do so ie no enclosed back garden, entire males at home etc why the rush?

Thanks for that.  It's very hard when you are a first time dog owner to make the right decisions, especially when the vet we go to is so nice, has a lab herself and is so confident that it's the right thing to do.

The vet says that spaying before the first season is more effective and preventing cancer, etc  I asked about the hormone impact and she said there wouldbe no effect.... I suppose I'm struggling with it as I know what the effects on me would be if I had an hystorectomy (Sp??), though I understand the affect on animals is different....

I just want to do the right thing....

Has he told you what &age of bitches develop cancer and how much that percentage rises if unspayed?

This is akin to women having hysterectomies or mastectomies to prevent cancers........ I know some do, but a tad drastic IF there is no familial history.

Actually no, but I've read conflicting things, one saying 99% before first season dropping to 95% afterwards and one suggesting a drop to 50% afterwards and 0% after 2 years...

I'm starting to think that as there's doubt in my mind I should let her have her first season and then have her spayed 3 months after that, that way she still has good protection and we buy some time to think about it some more.  The main driver for me is the fact that my MiL has her every day for a few hours and I'm worried about her having the extra responsibility - mind you she could probably avoid walking her for 28 days and do some extra training with her instead.

Thanks for the advice
Nicky x

I think I must have not made myself clear, what %age of bitches get cancer if they are not spayed?  99%?

I have no idea.  I have been told that having a bitch spayed reduces their chances of cancer by 99% if it's done in the first year, 95% in the second year.  I've also read it's 95% in the first year reduced to 50% in the second.  I get your point about preventative mastectomy etc

I agree that bitches should only be spayed  after 1st or better still after 2nd season,as for house training yes bitches do tend to wee more often when due to come into season,your lab is only a baby yet and only mature at around 18 months.There may well be accidents for a while yet.

Sheila.

What sort of cancers are talking about? Malignant or benign? Are you including asexual ones (ie bone or liver cancers, which attack both genders)?

Hi Jeangenie,

The % thing is a side issue, actually all I'm trying to decide is whether to have my baby spayed before her first season or not.........any opinion?
Nx

To put my penny'sworth in :D We had Tara spayed after her first season. Our vet was keen to do it ASAP, but I ignored this and waited (having listened to lots of advice on here :) Fortunately, she didn't have her first season until she was over 12 months and so she wasn't spayed until she was 15/16 months. I'm pretty happy about this and so far (she's 3 1/2 tomorrow) all has gone well. We had no problems with the op and she was bouncing around (literally) the next day :)

Good luck with your decision :)

Daisy

The figures I have heard quoted is 50% but of those only about 40% are not benign.  So that would be about 20% of bitches getting malignant growths, which can be3 easily spotted and removed.

See Kerioaks Mammary cancer poll.

The effects on animals of a hysterectomy are no different than those on yourself.  In fact we are designed to eventually do without the female hormones and go through menopause, canines do not have a menopause.

So spay before first season or after?

After, especailly if she is a medium to alrge breed and not me3ntally mature.  As a side issue aggression towards other dogs is greater in spayed bitches than entire ones, I'm assuming that female hormones have a softening effect.

Thanks for answering.

......I think some men would argue 'our' mormones have the opposite affect LOL ;)

Post-menopausal women are notoriously grumpy! ;) :D

We had Gabi spayed after her second season as she used to have health problems each time she was in season. Unfortunateley we were not aware that this would make her more agressive and we were suprised when this happened. If only we had known, she was a little agressive towards other dogs before she was spayed but since spaying she is much worse. Agression with a large GSD is very hard to handle and we would have preffered to carry on with medication for her health problems. Too late now of course whats done is done.

My spaniel could be quite nasty to my other dog as her season approached since spaying she has been fine so in her case there was an improvement although it was just a problem at a very specific time.

Personally I wouldn't spay before a bitch's first birthday - that may be one or two seasons. If her first season was at 6 months then the earliest time to spay would be 9 months - but I personally feel that's too young, so I'd let her have another season and spay midway between the second and third. If the bitch had her first season at 8 or 9 months then I'd spay at about 12 months, between her first and second.

If you beleive that hormones have an effect on growth and maturity then, unless you want your dog to stay as she is (ie a puppy), you will delay spaying. I beleive, but could be wrong, that the reason vets advise early nutering is that the operation is simpler the younger the dog is. Certainly I had my collie bitch spayed (many, many years ago) after she developed a pyo following repeated phantom pregnancies. She took a long time to recover and the vet said this was because she was a very muscular dog and they had to cut through a lot of muscle. I had my current bitch spayed 3 months after her first season and she was up and running (pinging, if I'd let her) within a day or two. She had her first seaon when she was 11 months old which meant that she had 14 months to mature before spaying. If you follow your vet's advise she will only have 6 months to mature - that's a big difference to my mind.

Having said all this I have an older male dog who was nutered when he was 11 months old, long before my bitch came along. He was nutered because only one testicle descended so that one needed to be removed (because of the increased risk of testicular cancer of the retained testicle)and and I felt that they may as well both be done as I obvioulsy would never breed from him. Until my bitch had a season he had never shown any interest in bitches in season - since spending three weeks with a bitch in season things are different, not horendous but different. Also the last week of the season was very difficult. Consequently if you or your dog sitting friend has another dog, especially another male dog, this must influence your dission.

Would spaying very early have similar effects to a premature menopause - risk of osteoporosis etc?

We have couple of rescue bitches spayed b4 their first season and have noticed no difference in development. character or otherwise than those entire bitches we have. The only thing we have noticed is that they do tend to be more "food" orientated. However some Labs can be a bit inclinded that way anyhows.  One of our boys is like a hoover on four legs. Any crumbs left behind from the others, he comes along with nose to the ground scooping them up.  And no, he is not neutered, although his brother whom we kept for showing [and didnt make the standard] is neutered. 

If you are worried about hormonal effects you can start after she is speyed giving her evening primrose oil + royal jelly.  Incidently this is also benefical for human ladies.

On another forum I found it interesting that several members said after spaying their adult bitches had started to "leak" and had to go onto some form of treatment. I have not heard of this happening in bitches done before the first season although I have never researched into it. I can only speak from our experiences which have been positive.

I am sure you will make the right decision for you and your pup.

Neeva

hiya nicky,

i had my girl done before her first season after much deliberation-she was 10mths. The key thing that made my mind up about it was that we were doing the family holiday thing, and my mum has her brother, so i didn't want any getting jiggy while we were away-especially with her brother !

i had talked to the vet previously, and he said they was no set rule, and no real benefits in allowing a season before spaying. Like other posters have already said, by having it done before the first season lowers the likelihood of tumours etc.

i think its just a matter of personal choice.

nicola

I would look at the post Informal Poll - Mammary Cancer, from the posts so far it would appear that the incidence of mammary tumours is a lot less than the 50% (benign and malignant) often quoted for bitches left entire or not spayed until adulthood.

Hi Nickyxh,
How is your puppies leg? I know its off the subject a little and I wondered if you are still going to get her x-rayed if you decide not to get her spayed right now?If I remember correctrly, you were going to do the 2 together.
My Vets wouldn't spay bfore the first season and recommend spaying approx 3 months after a season.

Hi Chocmolly,

Thanks for asking!  Kiera is still limping, but there has been some good news I think!  When we got Kiera we spent a lot of time getting to know the breeder and, as we'd really started to have second thoughts about gettign Kiera spayed & the whole lame thing was playing on my mind I decided to give Jenny (the breeder) a call.  She was so helpful and has helped us make a couple of decisions.  Firstly we are delayign the spay until Kiera is a bit older - we will still get her done as I think the benefits of protection from cancer are worth it but not until she has had at least one season and depending on how we cope we might wait until she is about 2 years old.  I feel like a massive weight has been lifted!

Secondly, Jenny kept Kiera's sister and she is also limping.  Jenny says she has seen this so many times before that we really shouldn't worry at the moment as she firmly believes it's growing pains.  She was able to remind me that there are no incidences of HD or OCD in Kiera's parents/grandparents and that her dad had 0 elbow scores.  She thought we shold be sensible and manage the lameness for a few more weeks and just see what happens as she really is convinced it's nothing to worry about - so we have cancelled the op and we will wait a while and see how the limp goes - to be honest it seems  a bit better at the moment so fingers crossed! 

Nx

I'm so glad she seems better, the elbow score in the parents should also give you peace of mind,It still may be worth getting x-rays done just for reassurance.Does she run up and down stairs at all or jump into the back car etc, as this would also put a little strain on her joints?

HI Chocmolly,

Kiera is allowed up stairs once in a blue moon and usually Grant carries her back down (puffing and panting LOL).  We've never let her up and down stairs and she travels either in the footwell, passenger seat (with her belt/harness on) and later this week she'll get the back seat with her harness on as she's getting quite big!  We've done everything right as far as we know - so fingers crossed Jenny will be right and it will turn out to be growing pains.  We will get her Xrayed if it's still the same after a few weeks or if it gets any worse.

Nx

After seeing the woolly coats on spayed Cavaliers though, I wouldn't spay one of them at all unless for important health reasons! :-)

I was thinking the same question and asked on here to. After lots of advice I am going to get my girl done after her 2nd season. I don't want her to stay a puppy forever, I will have a breakdown. At least by the time she would be done, she will be nearly 15 months. From what I was told the earlier you spey then the less risks om mamory tumours occuring. I do not want to lose another dog to cancer.