Hypothetically of course would you ever trust a dog that had aggression issues towards other dogs no matter how much you had worked to reverse this issue, and it was working well (but not 100%) would you breed from this dog?

no i would never breed from a dog with agression issues.there are alot of dogs out there that are nice,no-body need to breed from dodgey dogs.

I have a male that I would breed from, mainly because I know the reasons for his aggression and it was due to the behaviour of another male when he was a pup, which I didn't realise at the time who was really putting my dog down.  Not only did this same dog do this to my dog but a number of others and it was the other dogs that got the blame for their agression, it wasn't until a long time later and maybe 4 males upset, that we realised the real reason !

This was eventually advised to us by a dog behavourist! 

Dog to dog agression in males to a certain extent can be expected in many breeds, and would not indicate a poor temperament.

I agree to some extent Brainless.If a male is willing to show dominance and to stand his ground with another equally dominant male that is one thing and as you say somewhat expected however if a dog lunges without warning or provocation then IMO that dog has no place in a breeding programme.
Archer

Yes but provocation can be quite subtle. 

We all know that the boys can be very on their toes around each other at shows, but the smae ones will be perfectly amicable with other dogs when on their walks.

A male I have bred can be as quick to spar up as the next one, but he can holiday and travel with other entire males and rarely is there a problem.

Must admit I dislike the sly males who wait until the other males back is turned before ahving a pop :D

i agree with michelled.

my friends rottie is very unpredictable, and has shown aggression to dogs and his owners, me (i'm not phased, and make it known its not acceptable) and the friend mentioned below.....

for some reason, the hubby is finding every excuse possible to not get him done, even though he's said "i don't trust him" (when in a room with another super lovely rottie owning friend and her 7mth old baby, referring to him towards the baby), "he's unpredictable" . He really wants a puppy from one of his litters in a few years, and in a perfect world wants the perfect dog (bear in mind he's just turned 1, so the hormoes haven't even kicked in yet), stud him once, then castrate him. Hmm....... The wifey is trying to convince him to agree to getting him done.

time will tell......Although by then the decision might be taken out of their hands.......

nicola

IMO this as as important as passing the health checks!!!!!!if you a breeding from a suspect dog just because it is a good phyiscal example of the breed,then i think your breeding morals need addressing!!!!

we are always going on on here about people not health testing,perhaps there should be a temperment test too!
some breeds are wound up in the show ring to show "gameness"
& then people wonder why their breed is gaining a poor reputation with dog aggression.

is it ok in a dog then,because it then appears more "manly" & proud at a show?
but what about the bitches?

Thanks its not my dog by the way even though she has 'aggression' tendancies we have worked well to 'dumb' these down i would not breed from her, its the unprovoked tendancies i have an issue with i would NOT breed from a dog that had these tendancies even though i knew where they originated from.

This dog i'm talking about is from another country and the standard is different and 'UK breeder' would like to introduce this dog into their line. I'm all for improving the line or freshening it up but at what cost?

No it is natural for entire males to be sexually competitive, especially at shows wher mthere will be a lot of other males and bitches, some of which may be in season, coming into season or recently had a season, especially as some of these will be stud dogs.

Not all breeds males will happily rub shoulders with other strange entire males, especialy in large numbers.

As I said these same males would be much more tolerant away from a show atmosphere, and certainly would not court trouble, but it is natural for males to show male on male aggression to some extent, even if in the human social context we do not like it.

Its not about male to male, female in season etc etc this dog i'm talking about will attack horses, rabbits, lambs in a heartbeat it has such a high drive.

In that case then MYGIRL definitely not!!!  My dogs case is totally different and he's actually fine with 90% of dogs and I suppose isn't aggressive in the way that other people would think is. 

Thanks i appreciate your honesty this dog will attack deer too i'm a bit 'iffy' over this, its nothing to do with me but i can see it happening from a distance and i don't approve. I certainly wouldn't want a pup from this litter thats for
sure.

"Hypothetically of course"

so "hypothetically" what is the breed ? ;)

just wondering because obviously all breeds differ in their prey drive.

'Hypothetically' one that was bred to bring down wild boar ;) so no soft touch.

And hypothetically one that already has enough temperament problems in some lines anyway ...

M.

Yes if it were a deerhound or one of my breed wanting to hunt deer would be expected, though in my breeds case they would harry rather than risk a full attack.

Then my answer would have to be a definate no, but that wasn't clear from the initial post, and others feel any aggression (even under understandable and natural provocation) is a no no, and here I would disagree with them.

I wouod expect a male when challenged by another male to react in kind, a bitch to protect her young from other animals etc. 

it is natural because that is what is been bred.
my entire dog has alot about him,he is "up on his toes" & just ouzes ego,he has been attacked twice ,yet shows NO aggression towards other dogs at all.
a dog can be "doggy" without been aggressive.
i would not EVER have a pup with a dodgey mother or father,id prefer to risk a health problem than a temperment one.

Surely it depends on the breed of dog? certain breeds are reknown for their dog aggression, thankfully though they are still bred, hence why we still have these wonderful breeds.

I wouldnt breed from a dog which had human aggression unless of course it was trained speciafically for this ie police dogs.

but does their dog aggression continue because the quieter temperments in the breed are not used.?maybe because they do not appear so "game" in the ring & dont win as much?

it seems commonplace to just "accpect" agression in some breeds,oh its a .....,thats why its like that.Is that ok?
i dont think it is.
in my breed, some collies are VERY sharp,id not use a dog from sharp lines when there are loads of lovely tempered dogs about.As this is how dogs get bad reps.

I suppose really then, it all depends upon whether the dogs are to be used for what they were originally bred for?????   There are some temperaments that I wouldn't want to breed out of my breed and I feel that if dogs that did have that more shall we say sparky temperament were left out then the working line would be lost all together.  This I don't want to happen as some people do still buy my breed to work them.

I do have to say that the aggression side of things in my breed isn't that much of a problem though.

Surely if you start breeding out the original characterists of a breed, then it is not the breed of dog that you originally went for?

Sorry this is hypothetical in a way as I'm just interested how other people feel?

I agree to a large extent with this, but one of the problem I've seen personally is when these working lines then end up in the hands of people who don't appreciate them or know how to handle them.  Have seen this with several Shepherds when I used to be more involved in obedience - dogs that would have been fabulous in a home that knew how to channel their intelligence and energy, but were frankly dangerous in a pet home.

Of course, with the best will in the world when placing puppies, no breeder can ever guarantee that the home a puppy is sold to is its final home.

Not sure that this offers anything constructive to this discussion, apart from a different viewpoint?!

M.

when people see a well adjusted shepherd working,i think they think they come like that!!!! not apprecaiting all the hard work.

in obedience dodgey temperments are few & far between,

for a start there is stays,some out of sight,with up to 60 dogs left in a ring in close proximty to each other.
then alot of the work is off lead,in rings adjenct to each other

so a iffy dog is soon found out!!!!!

Not sure if you're disagreeing with me or not Michelle, but I certainly agree with you - most dogs in obedience have excellent temperaments.  However, the best temperament in a working bred GSD can be ruined by someone who doesn't know how to handle the working drive and reacts to it wrongly.

M.

yes i was agreeing with you!!!! & i agree with that statement too!

lol! theres sparky & then theres SPARKY!!!!!

Hi Michelle, as you know my dogs arent aggressive and I like it that way other people  think that fiestiness  is part of the breed characteristic and should be unheld as it was what it was originally bred for.

I think Brihow Collies has a good point.  It's not a bad thing to keep in original traits that enhances the working abilities that the dogs were originally bred for.  However, if these traits are not compatable with common pet ownership i.e. families and their constraints then should they be advertised for pet ownership? 

i think you can get fiesty & personalty plus without the aggression.
if a male dog squares up to flynn,flynn does not back down,but does not react aggressively & often the "aggressive "dog will realise hes no threat. this is because hes a really condfident male dog.
you should see him he really has the "look  at me " xfactor,he is no show dog but even breed people comment on how handsome he is.You can just see in his eyes how much he thinks of himself.
So i believe you can have a "doggy" dog that is not aggressive.

saying all that.i do not accept  & WILL NOT PUT UP WITH ANY AGGRESSION what so ever,

for blondiflops,hi,:) what if your breed was under threat of a ban due to temperment of some dogs ,due to people wanting them "true to type/fit for a job",? would you then be willing to lose your breed,or be willing to breed ONLY with non dog aggressive dogs?

I think it depends what you consider aggression. 

A dog that spoils for a fight to me would be one to avoid, but the one that will stick up for itself as if to say come on then I can look after myself, or has a grump at a dog that gets in it's face or eyeballs it, is not the same.

I have only ever used males that have generally been pretty forgiving and tolerant with each other when mature (a bit of teenage angst and showing off can be understood).

The male I am planning to use on Lexi was one that made friends with Brodie in the Open dog class when both realised the other was freindly.  Her sire had lived with an entire stud male when he came out of quarantine, until the old boys death.  All these males were masculine.

Not being involved in a breed that often has a problem with other dogs in the pet situation I prefer my dogs sociable, but I don't want one that is so submissive that it is a craven coward even though that might make some aspects of pet ownership easier. 

Many people keep several males as pets, and some even keep mixed sex households (this is where things can get a bit more difficult with several males around entire bitches, but usually only when they are about to come into or in season), but most prefer5 to keep either all males, or only bitches wit no more than one male if the girls are entire.

I prefer that my breed don't start anything but will not run away either, and of course that is exactly what is required in their hunting role.  They need to be brave and keen enough to face their quarry, but not so aggressive/driven/foolhardy as to take it full on (as those dogs get weeded out of the gene pool by getting their heads bashed in).

In the showring our dogs are shown for bait in the pocket, so males sparring with each other is not an advantage.  Interstingly in Norway they do stand males head to head and get quite a lot of posturing and barking )all a big bluff), but out of the ring they happily mind their own business and mingle with their family and other dogs including very young pups, as the show atmosphere is much more like one of our exemption shows.

I don't normally show males, but the male I do show will growl if another eyballs him, but equally after both have been told to behave was able to show him head to head with more than one for the same piece of bait.

The bitches that I have that show really well are not in the least aggressive to other dogs, but are very confident.  They are used to having many different dogs come to visit, some not quite as well mannered as they are, yet fighting has never been an issue, because they know I won't allow it.  They prefer to make freinds wtih visitors or ignore them if they can't.

Collies herd, therefore they are prone to developing many negative habits associated with this (chasing cyclists/joggers, herding children and nipping them) if not trained, temperament problem or training probelm, or shoudl the herding instict be bred out (which to some extent it has been in show lines) to make for easier pets.

In some ways it would make my life so much easier if my dogs were velcro dogs and didn't have that hunting instinct, but they wouldn't be the breed I love, have to take it warts and all.

I am happy that breeders here, Scandinavia and USA (except for puppy farmers) breed for the temperament required:

Characteristics - A hardy hunting Spitz with a bold energetic disposition

Temperament - Friendly, intelligent and independent without any sign of nervousness.

i dont think of elkhounds as aggressive dogs,however fom my own experince i know they can be a little reactive around collies (due to the collie eye) lots of breeds are!!!!

I beleive they see it as a challenge and feel intimidated/threatened, and GSDs can be the same according to my friend who owns both breeds.

She has found over the 30+ years that her husbands shepherds dislike her collies, but then most of their dogs have been adult rescue males, but in her case it is the male colllies that want to fight at home, but are fine away from home.  The male sheps are fine with the collie bitches though.

Male to male aggression is not a temperament issue it is a control training and socialisation issue, but it is natural behaviour, the same way as hunting, digging etc. 

We can train our dogs not to do these things, but without training they will follow their natural urges.  After that it is only the relative strength or weakness of their character, how they react to challenge, fight flight or freeze.

Generally speaking the Hound and Gundog breeds ahve been bred to have a high degree of tolerance to others of their own kind as they often work in groups.

The breeds bred for guarding tend to more dominant natures (it's part of what makes them good guards), and often mlae to male intolerance witll be expected.  This is nothing to do with unprovoked aggression.

I have been following this thread with interest and several valid points have been raised.

I own Malamutes which people seem to accept to be same sex aggressive. However the original job that they were bred for required them to work in a team - they may not have to like each other but they would be expected to at least tolerate each other.

A high prey drive (ie the chasing of lambs, rabbits etc) that was mentioned earlier is no indication of this particular breeds agressiveness. A malamute should *never* show any aggression towards a person and any dog that did should never be bred from under any circumstance. IMO a dog that is highly dog aggressive (in this breed) should not be bred from either - there are far too many being bred as it is and there are so many around that there is no excuse to use a dog that has a poor temperament.

I agree with you Michelle.  I see a lot of dog-dog argy-bargy at shows and I too would never want a pup from such parentage.  I don't think we should excuse it in our (male) dogs, we should try to breed it out.  In which case, no, we should not breed from such dogs.

Dont understand everyone saying " wouldnt trust taking on a pup if it had aggro parents"- fair enough if you  are buying a pedigree, but lots of dogs are rescued- they could of had aggro parents and you wouldnt know it, yet they turn out perfectly stable?
Of course i wouldnt buy a pup from that situation, but i dont think that this would be outcome 100% of time. cant risk it tho.

There is a big difference between an "aggressive dog" and a dog showing "aggressive behaviour" in certain situations.

To expect a dog NEVER to demonstrate any aggressive behaviour at all during its life is, IMHO, unrealistic, just as it would be for humans.

Just because your dog has never demonstrated any aggressive behaviour does not necessarily mean that it is not capable of so doing, only that the circumstances in which it would do so have not yet occurred.

Also, aggression is, like a lot of other things, in the eye of the beholder.  We all have a different view and "line".......................IME.

And is the "aggression" inherent or has it been learned/acquired?

One may be genetic, the other is not.