>it's like having a baby - I know some people just have them without a thought but I'm old-fashioned and think Mum's should be at home for as long as possible with their kids and be able to afford to have them

So someone, like myself, who has to work full-time, should never have a baby then?  Even though I'm happily married, with a beautiful (albeit small) home?  Am I unable to provide what my baby needs, purely because I will have to return to work after six months? 

If I was to leave my baby at home, to fend for itself, then yes, I think you have a valid point.  But comparing babies to dogs is just totally outrageous, and I think that many working mothers would have lots to say to you about making that comment!!

"If I was to leave my baby at home, to fend for itself, then yes, I think you have a valid point.  But comparing babies to dogs is just totally outrageous, and I think that many working mothers would have lots to say to you about making that comment!! "

This is exactly then point a puppy does require the same care as a baby, as that is what they are, albeit the time of infancy is shorter.  A dog is like a school age4 child, can be left for dhort times, but really ought to have company or supervision as otherwise they will both entertain themselves, and usually in ways we do not want.

I know I'm going a little off topic, but I'm not discussing the point of leaving a dog, I personally don't leave our dog at home without lunchtime visits, but to say that a mother shouldn't have a baby if they have to work is ridiculous, and offensive to any working mothers :rolleyes:

A baby would be left with a carer, not left at home on it's own - two completely different situations.

People will always have strong views on the working mothers v. stay-at-home mothers debate, Keeley. It's just human nature.
But I must admit I do like Tingalay's ' if you take on a new life you need to be there for it'.  A good maxim to live by imo.

If you intended to leave a 6-month baby alone for 8 hours while you worked, then of course you should never have one - indeed Social Services would be outraged! If you're going to arrange day-care for it, however, then there's no problem.

A small puppy has the same needs as a human baby, and an adult dog has the needs of a young child. Animals aren't toys ...

>If you're going to arrange day-care for it, however, then there's no problem

Exactly, and what human wouldn't arrange day care for it?  Not very many.  So therefore, to say that you should think the same about getting a puppy and working as you should having a baby and working, is completely pathetic.

It's exactly the same! You don't get a puppy and leave it to its own devices for 8 hours (and expect to get a normal dog as a result) any more than you would a baby. Both species need care!

But the person who mentioned it wasn't saying about leaving a baby on it's own - they were talking about how 'right' it is for someone, anyone, to have a baby when they have to return to work.

Both are emotional investments and financial ties. Sacrifices need to be made with both. Everyone's entitled to have a view on what that sacrifice should be.
:)

Errr, let's get things in perspective - firstly, this is a forum and we are all entitled to air our opinions.  In MY opinion, having a baby and having/choosing to go back to work after 6 months means both you and the child are missing out on very important time together and I PERSONALLY feel that to do so is giving birth to an accessory, not a child.  That's my opinion and I think you will find I am in the majority.  Also getting things into perspective, the world is over populated with both people and dogs.  There are too many people and so there are job shortages and house prices are crazy in the UK.  The dog rescues are filled to over-flowing.  Maybe, just maybe, if people had babies and could be stay-at-home mothers, and people who could afford doggy-day-care or not to work or to work part-time were the only ones who had dogs, there would be less over-crowding, of both two and four legs, and a much better quality of life.  Your opinion is that it's fine for someone else to bring up your child while you work and you're entitled to your opinion.  You've had my views and I'll not be adding to this string because I was airing a comparative opinion originally, not looking for a whole new discussing.

Now, as far as I remember, this is a forum about dog behaviour.

Sorry, but that's the biggest load of cr*p I've ever heard.  But like you said, your entitled to your opinion, and so am I.  I know that when I decide to have a child, it will be cared for and loved as much as any other child, whether it's me doing it or a close family member. I'm glad not everyone thinks like you because there would be many sad people in this world, unable to have a baby because they've not got rich husbands.

I cant stand that crates are the norm in the US,it's like they cant survive without them,it seems they come in puppy packs :(

They are used as babysitters for alot of dog owners for 8-10 hours per day,everyday! Sorry, i have just had a gut full of reading posts like this,especially on american sites where they wouldnt even bat an eyelid at a pup/dog being locked up all day long :( :(

Booya,now that you are both working then maybe you can afford a dog sitter,if not, find a loving home with people who have the time to take on a demanding pup.

>6 month old puppy in crate 5-7 hours" he sleeps sleeps and sleeps<

Manny the pup has no choice but to sleep sleep sleep,what else has he got to do in a cage? do tell :)

>6 month old puppy in crate 5-7 hours" he sleeps sleeps and sleeps< (said MannyG)

>Manny the pup has no choice but to sleep sleep sleep,what else has he got to do in a cage? do tell :-) (said Hailey)

Exactly Hailey! :) MY 6 months old pup (who BTW never has been crated) is right now outside running around playing, running and chasing his friends, playing with toys, chewing stuff, having a great time. He's been doing this since 8.30 this morning, it is now 12.40. Soon he'll come in and sleep for a couple of hours, then he'll do something else! No way would he sleep a full 5-7 hours in the day if he didn't have to! Not at 6 months! Now he CHOOSES. If he gets tired and happens to be outside he lays down for a rest -and so I let him in. (Comfier in the kitchen!)

You can't expect someone to have a dog and NOT work like come-on.

Why on earth not?  My OH and I both used to work full time in an office and would have loved a dog but thought it would be cruel leaving it at home alone all day.  OUr circumstances are changed now though and we can both work from home a couple of days, so we now have dogs, and work it so there is always one of us at home with them.

I find it amazing anyone would think its OK to leave a puppy in a crate for 5, 6, 7 hours plus!  How utterly cruel!!  Especially a young dog being kept on its own.  Dogs are pack animals and crave company.

On the odd day when both my OH and I have to go to the office, I end up doing a 240 mile round trip to drop the dogs off with my mother in law to look after for the day, because I know they would be miserable and busting for a pee if left alone all day.  (Could you hold your bladder all day?!)  No way would I think of stuffing my dogs in a cage all day for 8 hours, just the once, never mind all day every day.

I'm just gobsmacked that anyone could think its OK to leave a pup in a cage all day.....Unbelievable....

i have a 9 week puppy girl.i am at home with her AAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLL day until 6pm when my bf comes in and takes over so he is with her all night.my mum and her bf and my 2 brothers are all at home as well.also she has a 10 month old schnauzer to play with who love each other.it gives me great pleasure knowing my puppy has a wonderful life with me and my family.i think if i left her for 8 hours the guilt would destroy me.as i write this the puppies are both playing with each other :)
i know people have to work and when you get home you probably give them all your love.but is it enough honestly?we as humans go mad after 8 hours with no one to talk to i know from experience!with the boredom i got depression and slept all day!i'm afraid i agree.re-think or re-home for the puppys sake.

>You can't expect someone to have a dog and NOT work like come-on.

In Sweden, most dog owners (of pedigree dogs, whether they show or breed or not) are Kennel Club members. To be a KC member you have to abide by their codes of conduct, one of which says no dog should be left alone for more than 3-4 horus in TOTAL each day (that is EVEN if it has a break after 2 hours). Also the Swedish Ministry of Agriculture says that no dog should be crated for more than one hour. In Sweden housewives are VERY rare, everyone works, yet dog owners still manage. If you want a dog you simply employ somebody to take it out during the day, or you use dog daycare centres.

I got MY first ever dog this way. He was a year old Golden, and he was home alone for several hours a day as his owners worked. They paid me to take him out during my lunch hour from school, and then again after school. He STILL ended up barking and chewing things to pieces, so that in the end they realised they couldn't keep him, and gave him to me. :)

Here in the UK, I hardly know anyone that is part of a couple where BOTH work. One of my first bred pups ended up in the situation where both her owners needed to work after a while (when they got her only the husband did) and they employ a dog walker.

There are always ways if you want it badly enough. I dare say there ARE dogs that will be okay on their own, but that is not something naybody can ever COUNT on. All dogs are different. Just look at the numbers in rescue suffering from "separation anxiety". I'd neer even heard that term until I came to the UK!

Like somebody else said, we have an old banger of a car smeling of dogs, we both wear tatty old clothes and hardly ever by new ones, we never go out, we don't drink, don't smoke, don't spend money on ourselves, and I am therefore able to stay at home.

I work a crappy night job a few days per week,i despise the hours and the work to be honest,i recently got offered a day position which i had to turn down,because of my dogs! My mum looks after them in the evenings,but she couldnt take them during the day because she also works. I turned down a plum position because i just couldnt leave my dogs alone 3 days a week for 6-8 hours,and i have a doggy door to boot! To afford a dog sitter i would have to take on more days/hours,which kinda defeats the purpose.

My dogs give me so much,my sacrifices seem like a small price to pay.

It's easy to get terribly emotive and personal over this but IMHO there's no need for drastic "sacrifices" when commonsense is actually what's needed. The commonsense to realise that life isn't perfect and people do have to work BUT, and it's a big BUT, you need to take economic and personal circumstances into account long before you get in the positition of wondering how to deal with a distressed pup who has to be left at home for 8 hours a day! Because simple commonsense should tell you that a pup - regardless of breed and basic temperament -  cannot cope with such a lengthy period of separation. At 17 weeks, a pup should spend its day playing, sleeping, socialising, exploring the wide world and generally feeling secure about things. You can't achieve any of those things from inside a crate without any company!

We don't know - and it isn't our business to know - the precise personal circumstances of the original poster. But if there really isn't any way that they can arrange some sort of sensible day-care arrangements then the kindest thing to do is realise that this wasn't the best of all times to get a dog. Making them feel like total failures who aren't fit to keep an animal isn't helpful but neither is it realistic for them to think that a different choice of toy could ever keep a 17 week old pup happy about being left home alone for so long.

Pups are totally different from older dogs - my 9 year old cocker used to sleep for his country while we were out! - but I wouldn't leave my 13 week old JRT for more than a couple of hours and he doesn't appear to have any problems being left in his cosy den for this amount of time.  However, if he needs all day leaving then I'd have to make arrangements for someone to be with him for longer than a brief lunchtime visit right now. And I doubt he's different from any other pup of similar age.

Hi,

I think we 've all got off track here ;-).

I thInk we /most agree that a puupy left in a crate for up to 8hrs way too long and is unfair on any dog.

So unless a possible other sensible solution could be found like friend,member of family/neighbour that come in and check on the puppy offer it the tolilet,feed it, give a little human company swap over some toys etc perhaps the puppy would be best offered back to the origainal breeder with an apolgy that okay circumstances have changed and the puppy would be better off where someone can into it and tend to its needs.

Wearing a puppy out before crateing is not good idea,especially in my breed Golden Retriever this breed thrive human company,and risk of doing some serious damage to its joints to enable to be so worn out to make  it sleep 6-8 hrs just doesn't bare thinking about.
At least the owner knows the puppy gone back to a safe place the person who bred ,understands the  breed and will carefully rehome.Hopefully the breeder will offer some advice if ihe/she good breeder.

Now if the owner can't  come back to check on the puppy at least I think twice and the original breeder is not any help then rescue would be better answer long term to rehome so the puppy gets the right start .

Crates were *never* designed to leave a puppy in or adult dog for than 2hr and and a puppy less still .Leaflets that you get with a good quality crate also advises puppies/dog not to be left in them for long periods of time.
The same as you would not leave a child in a playpen for long period s of time even if you were at home all day.

Now my own personal thought here i would not leave a dog (adult) for 8 hrs a day regularly, comming into to see it once no matter how well behaved the dog was.To me I couldn't do it ,I would still  think this far as too long in my opinion especially in my breed.

However I know people who do it, if they are happy with their situation thats up to them there opinion :-)

But this dog is not an adult its a puppy and its the puppy health and happiness that must be given prioity above everthing else and the current situation a solution needing  to be found as a matter of urgency for the sake of the puppy.

Briony :-)

I work full time but I think that my dogs get everything that they need!  I'm single and my dogs are everything to me.

I'm one of those rarities in England who started working as soon as they left school and has carried on to do so.  I also had to buy my own house as the council and the government don't give a stuff if you work hard! 

The one thing is though I have more than one dog, of differing ages and they all get on great.  I know that I would never be able to be a 1 dog person and I also know that I would never, ever leave one in a crate for 8 hours during the day!  When I'm not at work every waking hour is dedicated to my dogs.  They all go to different training classes during the week and all have a great weekend out.

If a ruling came in that I couldn't have dogs because I work I don't think I'd bother being for long as I much prefer dogs to people :d 

Well, Wow!  First off, I must say that I'm a little disgusted that someone suggests I live in a trailer park.  Hah!  What a true Texan streotype.  We also have horses and say "yeehaw."

Second, my husband already comes home for lunch, and I do when I can.  So.

Third, we did not buy her from a breeder.  We rescued her from being put down at a shelter (she's a mutt).

Fouth, We have had her already for 11 weeks, since she was 6 weeks old (again, adopted her from a shelter where she was orphaned).  I haven't had a job for her first 11 weeks.

Fifth, we have gone through training with her.  She has held her bladder and has slept through the night since she was 7 weeks old.

Sixth, now that we're both working, and making more money than tingalay, doggie day care is within our budget, so I will look into that. 

However, since my question was regarding chew toys, I guess I'll have to go cruise the pet store again, and find a better toy for her.

Thanks to those who stood up for me, and to those who condemned me without the story, grow up and get all the facts before you pass judgement.

Fill the kong.. just fill it with stuff she CANT choke on, so cheese spread, the stuff that comes in squeezy tubes, frozen soup?? peanut butter.. give her several of those.

See if you can stagger yours and your OH's dinner hours, and see if there is a neighbour you could pay to come walk her or play wht her for a couple of hours, twice a day.

Working people CAN have dogs, it just takes some planning and some willingness to cough up for the dog walker/sitter.

I think some peoples responses were a little over the top, but then when a poster gives half the details and then doesnt respond for ages, its not that surprising peoples minds start overacting and inventing scenarios.

Em

Hi,

Firstly you didn't put all the facts on so people could go on what you posted.

2) A puppy in a crate for more than an hour whether from a breeder or rescue is unacceptable,

3) if you being comming home then thats fine to tend your pups needs and if your circumtances change people have advised to get someone to come into her.

If your puupy was brought from a good breeder and you were unable to see her  during the day to tend to her needs and no one to come in for you then in pups best interest a call to the breeder for further advice would been sensible.The fact that she from a rescue makes no difference her need s are the same just like if brought from rescue and you are unable to provide daytime care you would phone the rescue where you got her from.

But please don't leave any dog /puppy in a crate for more than 1/2 hrs beacuse that is abusing the crate system they were not designed for dogs  to be left in for long periods of time.

People are this board care very much for the welfare of dogs in general
.

I'm pleased you have got a solution to your original question.

Obviously there still alot of education needing to be explained to owners about crates  and how properly and sesnibly used they are safe and  useful and when crates are abused they are they are cruel.

You should should be grateful people took time to apply to your limited facts to try and offer help and solutions better people cared that people not getting all fired up and couldn't give a damn.

Briony you goes to great lengths ensuring puupy owners underrstand how to use a crate and to bring up a puppy happily.

Briony :-)

I think I speak for everyone in the UK when I say now that we have the full story, you are still wrong to crate a puppy 8 hours a day.  As a majority, we tend to believe in quality of life.  Please get doggy day care.  It's about £16.50 a day in the UK for some to pick up, care for and drop off - almost as much as having a horse on full livery (you'll know about that - being from TX :-)).  It's very worthy to rescue any dog (I would never buy from a breeder) but you have to make sure that the life you give the dog is better for the dog that the alternative.   And I'm not sure that anyone actually stood up for you - I think if you read carefully, you will find that everyone thought it wrong to continually crate such a young dog.  And you are possibly making more money than me - well done.  My dog is never, ever on it's own for more than two hours - and that's only happened twice in the past month.  What a materialistic world we live in!

Booyah
People replied to your original post. You clearly stated and I quote " She can hold her bladder all day while in her crate, but she gets very bored."  People will read exactly what you wrote and comment on it. The fact you said she holds her bladder for seven hours indicated that she was left for that amount of time. Just because she manages to hold all night does not mean she can hold it all day.
If you don't want negative comments, be careful of what you write and how you put it. You accuse us of commenting without knowing the full story, WELL YOU SHOULD OF PUT IT A LITTLE CLEARER.
I don't see anyone on hear actually defending what you said. Only making comments on what you wrote.
So to sum. I think the general view is noone knows of a toy that will keep a puppy amused in a crate for most of the day. 

Hi,

Noone knows of a toy because no one be so stupid or cruel leave a puupy in crate that long and companies don't make toys to enertain a dog in a crate for several hours everyday.

Briony       All crates should come with large bold type leaflets saying DO NOT LEAVE PUPPIES OR DOGS IN THESE CRATES FOR LONG PERIODS GET PROPER DAYCARE ARRANGED if your dog needs to be left for longer periods of time  CRATES ARE NOT READYMADE DOGSITTERS.

Also just because your dog is a mutt as you called it makes no difference to its welfare.

Mutts or pedigrees have the same basic needs of welfare.

Briony

exactly right there..... a poor man needs needs food and water as does a rich man!

No one knows you are American here, let alone Texan.  This is a UK based forum and you did not say where you live, so it's kind of impossible for us to suggest that you live in a trailer park...

Second: You didn't say you come home for lunch, or your husband, you stated that she can hold her bladder all day.  Which implies that is what she is being required to do.

Third: Taking on a dog is a serious commitment and it's no less serious if the dog comes from a shelter or from a breeder, so that's irrelevant.  Pups are the easiest to home so it's probable she would have gone to another home if you hadn't taken her and not been pts.

Fourth: You can't have "gone through training" with a 17 wk old puppy.  Training a dog to an acceptable standard takes a darn sight longer than that.

Fifth: Be careful of doggy day care, because at a lot of doggy daycare places they just let the dogs run about unsupervised together.  This can lead to your dog either becoming a bully or being bullied.  There is then a good chance your dog will become aggressive.

Sixth: A dog can't interact with a chew toy and a chew toy does not replace people.