Hi, was thrilled when i got my beautiful bearded collie, began to brush him from an early age to get him used to it etc. However, whenever I get the brush out he growls and runs all around the room, will not let me near. I can do it with treats, but then have to brus him with one hand? He stays nice on top, but his undercoat got so matted took him to parlour and they clipped him off - almost bald. Was so so so so upset ! Its starting to grow back, so i have started to do gentle brushing again - but hsi not having it ! I want him to be long haired again! dont want a baldy!! any tips please.....

Hi,
Have you discussed your problem with the groomer?
They obviously were able to clip him, so how did he behave with them? They don`t mind you asking for advise!
If you are able to groom him when you provide him with treats but not without, it seems that he is taking the mickey a bit.
Now that his coat is still short make it a daily routine. Make it a pleasant experience - reward with the occasinal treat for good behaviour - and place him on a lead - before you get the brush out - so he can`t get away from you.
Having to tug away at his coat doesn`t do much for his dislike of the whole thing, so get the right tools, be gentle but firm and if you really can`t cope, get him back to the groomers before his coat gets beyond saving.

hth

Trouble is now that he has been clipped the coat will take ages to grow back the proper texture and you may find it even harder to do until it all comes back properly.

As the other poster said he is taking the mick or it is painful, so he needs restraining preferably on a table.  If it gives you more confidence buy a muzzle (one of teh soft mikki ones wil do the job), and be firm, and praise him for co-operating.

Has anyoen shown you hwo to groom properly?  It sounds like you are using the wrong tools.  I wouldn't think you would get far with a brush.  A long toothed steel comb woudl be my choice for the main grooming?

Val any help here?

It sounds as though this has turned into a good game! ;) Before you start the groom him, put him on a lead and ideally get someone to hold him firmly and give him treats when he behaves - otherwise tie him to something solid. Then get the grooming tools out. It sounds as though the brush you use isn't suitable and isn't getting right down to the skin - my mother used to use a metal comb on her golden, as a brush simply tidied the top. You really need to be able to see his skin with each section of hair you're grooming.

This is similar to my 4 month old long coat GSD. She seems to see grooming time as play time, even though from as soon as I got her I used a soft textured brush to gently brush her when she was relaxed, she has never taken to being groomed, and it is becoming more of a struggle the bigger she gets, and more of a necessity now her adult coat is coming through. The only way she can get her to stay still for grooming unrestrained is by feeding her treats and going through some basic training like 'watch' and 'sit' and 'stand' so her mind is on the training and not on the grooming. If you even try to restrain her, she gets into a play frenzy. Is the tactic I am using right or should I be doing somehting else? I really need to get her away from seeing grooming as play time (and brushes as toys) because grooming her is so essential. I was thinking of taking her to a groomer and getting her groomed professinally (had a recommendation of a place from a lab puppy owner at puppy class) but I am not sure if a groomer would want to take her on and also I do not want her to fear being groomed if she is restrained. Any advice?

Hi Aliwongo,

Its probably not the correct thing to do, but when I groom my beardie I give him a big chew to eat whilst I'm brushing him.  He holds it between his front paws though so they get very sticky!! but at least I manage to do the rest of him while hes busy chewing, and have both my hands free to do it, then the paws get a quick brush at the end before I take the chew away.  Hes only 4 months though, so whether this will work when hes older I don't know?

(Also read about the ankle biting, mine gets very excited and likes to attack our ankles when we are walking down steps or hills! very strange? mad beardies!!!)

With a Bearded collie you really need to be lifting the coat and combing from the skin downwards ;)  pay special attention to areas behind the ears, under the legs, the belly and the legs+paws this is where mats form quickly.   You will need a pin brush, a flat slicker brush and several combs of different sizes.  Never bath the dog before combing thoroughly, this will make mats and tangles worse.  Always finish grooming by passing a comb through the coat to check for hidden knots and tangles.   If your dog is hard to handle tie his collar to a door handle or get him on a grooming table secured by a grooming arm or H-frame, as they would in the grooming parlour.  If you're unsure how to groom your dog, the staff at the groomers should be pleased to show you how and advise on brushes and combs. 

Hope this helps
Dill

Beardie boys can be notoriously difficult to groom and once they get the idea they can bully you out of it they will.  To get to the skin you need to learn how to line brush or use a steel comb with wide teeth.  Ideally you need to have the dog flat on the table rather that standing, and to brush in sections rather than trying to do the whole coat.  I know it is easier said than done and okay you can brush your Beardie by tying his collar to a grooming table stand but you will have a terrible job doing his underneath and feet as they dance and twist like a professional.

I didn't notice how old the dog is but I will go back and re read you post in a minute.  Beardies have the worst Kevin stage I have every seen in a dog and can sulk for England over being brushed.  It is worth while teaching the flat position while you boy is relatively short haired, you can praise and treat when you have achieved this, personally I just lay them flat putting my arms around their legs and side and lay them flat with the command 'flat'.  They will struggle to get up but if you achieve any sort of control at this point I personally would stroke gently and encourage them to relax. 

My boy is so used to it now sometimes he goes to sleep, other times he grumbles like mad.  They are like bright children and will push the boundaries as far as you let them.

My best advice to you would be to join a Beardie Club and go to one of the open-days where they give demonstrations.

In the meantime I will see if I can find a link which gives a picture of a Beardie being groomed 'Flat'. 

Regards

Echo

This site is about to add pictures I understand

http://beardie.net/hobo/description/bearded_collie_faq/grooming101.htm

>> Beardie boys can be notoriously difficult to groom

I shall watch with trepidation for one coming on my grooming course then! So far I have done a rough collie with a year's worth of neglected coat, and a standard poodle - both very different from the small dogs with silky coats I own! :-)

LucyD

Sometimes the only answer is to shave them off and let it grow back if they are too badly matted.  I had a rescue years ago and we took the decision to shave him as it was kinder than trying to detangle.  It took 18 months to grow back but he looked marvelous.  I know some groomers who wont tackle difficult Beardies, not because they are nasty but because they are so smart at avoiding situations they don't want to be in.

Don't give up though we need lots more good groomers.

Best of luck

Echo

That is what has happened to this pup, so at least the poster can start from scratch.

I don't know that I'm a good groomer, but we shall see!! :-D Reassuring that groomers are needed though, I should like to be able to get a job once I'm trained!

OH MY GOD !!! not 18 months to grow back !!!!!!!!!!! I was in tears when I saw him, and everyone keeps saying 'oh it will grown back in 6 months'. I have been watching so close every day to see if its growing - he was only clipped 3 weeks ago!!

I so wish I could do all the techniques you have all suggested, I have the patience and time to spend on him, but he is a little sod ! He snarls, growls, nips and bucks his body so I cant do him. I think he does start off seeing it as a game. I have bought SO many different tools, but I dont have a slicker - and that is what the groomer suggested.

Im ashamed to say - he is spoilt ! and thinks he is the boss. Im determind never to have him clipped again, so will have to try something. i dont have a table to put him on, and when I try and tie him up he just keeps bucking and snarling! He sounds like a monster, but he is totally adorable and the love of my life !!!!  (hence the spoiled brat !)

Thanks everyone !

Nette - I think that is a good idea, and im going to try that, as I always give him little nibbles that are gone in a second, i think a good chew that will keep him still for a while may well work !

Aren't they adorable as puppies, do you get stopped constantly ? I was so proud of my boys beautiful coat, he was chocolate brown when i got him, then golden blond, and now he looks just like a little white lamb after its been sheared.

aliwongo, I was going to leave this to others, but as a groomer I have had many dogs who the owners say they find difficult to groom.  Imagine, as a groomer, I allow myself, let's say 2 hours to groom, bath and dry a dog before the next one comes in.  I'm talking about a trained groomer running a business, not someone doing two dogs a day for pocketmoney!  I don't have the time to keep feeding treats or playing with the dog - I have a job to do.
I would make a big fuss of the new dog and make friends when he came in.  Then I would lift him onto a grooming bench, put a half check collar around his neck and secure to a restraint.  I'd then put a tummy strap underneath and secure that too.  He can jump and yell for all he's worth and still be safe and secure.  I have two hands to reassure him, and to firmly and confidently (because he can't bite me) start to work through his coat with a slicker brush.  Universal Deluxe from Simpsons http://www.simpsons-online.co.uk/acatalog/slicker.html A slicker will groom out knots very quickly and with the minimum of discomfort.  I would cut out knots from sensitive areas that will not show, like under the ears, under the tail, armpits and the genital area.  He would very soon realise, as I keep working and talking in a reassuring tone, that I am not going to stop!  I can't - I have another dog coming in in just over another hour!!
I would then go through the coat with a metal come to check if I have missed any matts before the bath.  As I dry, I groom with a pin brush, by this time rarely needing the tummy strap because the dog understands what I am going to do and is relaxed about it and happy to stand on the bench.  He'll have a BIG cuddle on the floor and a treat when I've finished!  He will come back in 8 weeks time, jumping up at the parlour door to get in, and the owner will still be complaining that they can't groom him at home, so I put the dog on the bench and show them this angel standing there as good as gold!!  And they can't believe it! :)
You may well have a difficult time as now the coarse top coat and soft undercoat will be growing through together, so it is important to establish a system now.  Firm but fair is always my motto.  Good luck.

I used to pop into a couple of freinds who did a bit of grooming to pay for their horses needs, and what Val says is exactly what I saw.  Ylu have to be firm and matter of fact with the dog. 

He must be under no illusion that no matter what his protests you will continue grooming him until your finished, and not when he wants you to stop.

What would you do with one of yoru children if they refused to be bathed and have their hair brushed?

Thanks Val - and I know that his coat will be more difficult as he is about to be castrated!
I know what you said is true - as I took him to a groomer in the end, and when she said she had to use clippers, I thought 'good luck' cos he cant stand any loud noises - is total wimp. She said once he got used to the clippers he was as good as gold !
Thing is, when you dont have grooming table or restraints it is difficult ! (my house is very small - No space to put him in for a really good grooming session - tends to be done on the sofa)

I know Bo is better behaved for anyone else, other than me ! Sometimes I think, right, no matter how he shows off, im doing the job today. BUT, he just makes it impossible as only way I can do him, is to keep being bit, over and over. I wish i could knock him out for an hour !!

My groomer refused to de-tangle him and said I would be 'cruel' to expect anyone to de-matt him as it would be unfair on the dog, thats why i let her clip him, but I regret it. Wish I had bought him home and tried again.
Trouble is, he is always in/out river which causes him to matt.

Groomer said he was so uncomfortable from the matts, which is why he wouldnt let me near him, but now he is soft and short, he still growls and shows his teeth .

I do sympathise, really I do BUT ...... you have to make this work for the next 10-12-14 years!
There are lots of options.  You HAVE to choose one and make it work!
He's showing his teeth to try and make you stop!  You must make the situation safe and don't stop!
You can book him in at the groomers every 8 weeks, but you'll still have to groom him weekly and it'll be expensive too.
You can tie his lead to the door handle and sit on the floor.  You may need another strong pair of hands until he is happy for you to groom him on your own.
You can put a piece of old carpet on a worktop in the kitchen and tie him to a window handle.
You can stand him on a work bench/chest freezer, any old table from a car boot sale, in the garage/shed.  Then fix 2 BIG hooks in the wall to tie him on to.
You must find a way that suits your situation and do it!! :)
Eventually, when his coat is under control and you groom him thoroughly twice a week with few knots found, he will grow to actually enjoy the attention and your time together - honestly. :)

Val you re absolutely right about having to do it and my guess is that having the dog castrated is going to make the coat softer and harder to deal with again but it must be done.  My rescue was castrated and as I said shaved and this is when we managed to gain his trust to start with the brushing and combing. 

The only thing I would add is that it is worth getting your Beardie to accept the flat position.  I have a bench in the garage and can stand him and restrain him on that but the only way I get to do the whole dog it to lay it flat, as you will see all the Beardie people do at the shows.  I take my hat off to you if you can do them all over while they are standing especially when they are in full coat.

To the new Beardie boy owner.

Boy Beardies will grumble and show their teeth.  Mine still forgets his manners from time to time and I have to reinforce the fact that I am not going to let him get up until I have finished.  You have to keep retraining them all the time as the boys really are like wilful children, I find the girls so much better.  Try to just get him comfortable with the position you intend to use first, don't make it a battle, don't even brush or comb him the first couple of times.  Use a couple of drops of Rescue Remedy to settle him before you start, then drink the rest yourself (only jocking), Keep some really smelly treats in your pocket (liver cake or cheese).  Get him into position, when he is where you want him treat - that very minute.  If he gets up or struggles don't make the mistake of giving treats to get him back into position, make him do what you want, or treat when you see him doing what you want, so he knows he only gets goodies when he has done right.  They are really smart and they soon learn.

Make your grooming sessions short to begin with use a release word like 'all done' to let your dog up from the 'flat position' or any other position you feel comfortable with only treat when your dog is doing what you want it too.

Yes it took 18 months to grow back to the 10 inch long coat he ended up with but in six months he will be looking like a shaggy puppy again so don't fret about it.

Have you joined a Bearded Collie club branch near you, it is well worth it and there is always someone ready to give practical advice on grooming.  Not all dogs are the same and after all Beardies are people aren't they?

Hi Echo.  I have no problem grooming full coated Beardies standing.  I clip out the undercarriage and underarms (delicate bits that tend to knot and don't show!) by touch without looking.  The belly is easy to part and brush, and the inside of the legs is accessible by lifting the nearest leg, putting it on my shoulder and working on the furthest leg with both hands!  My grooming benches are narrower than a grooming table (the right height for me and so that I don't have to bend my lower back!;)) so there wouldn't be room for a dog to lie down.

I think that standing and restraining is probably the best way to train this naughty boy and then when he understands what is required, maybe he could then be done in the flat position if the owner finds it easier.  It's a matter of whatever works best for you eh? ;)

That's where you have the advantage of me Val, if I clip my boy in anyway I can be disqualified from showing.  Even if I were to clip any part of his undercarriage I would be in trouble, hence the need to have him flat to do the belly and bits properly.   I would certainly be told that my boy wasn't in full coat if I trimed or cut any part of his coat.

For a pet though I can see your point and if you have to trim its better than shaving.

if I clip my boy in anyway I can be disqualified from showing.
Sure.  I'm grooming full coated pet dogs!

For a pet though I can see your point and if you have to trim its better than shaving
I think that I haven't worded it right!  I don't trim the body coat - it's against my religion! ;)  I clip the (tend to be knotty) bits under the arms and in the groin that don't show!  And I do that blind - I don't have to look at what I'm doing.

Hi Val

My other half has just been reading this thread and apart from the trimming, even underneath, he wholehearteldy agrees with you.  His words, 'as a groomer you cant spend time p****ng about with difficult dogs you simply have to show them who is boss' (he spends hours on our dogs). 

He has been 'in' Beardies for 17 years and he taught me the 'flat'.  I am a novice, only 12 years for Beardies.  No more softly, softly, for me I am off to buy a couple of harnesses to attach to the grooming bench and impress him with my new technique.

Sorry I have typed that wrong he has been in Beardies for 27 years not 17. Typing error.  I can definitely see a time saving technique coming in here.

Val - you are SO right, I know you are ! and I dont even think its my boys fault - its def mine ! I have probably gone about it all the wrong way from day one ! I am determind to get a grip on this brushing lark ! think thats a good idea about using window handles etc, or even getting an old table and putting it in my mum and dads garage and using that.

I have no idea if there is a local beardie group, but I would love to join, I will have to have a search, im living in North Cornwall (am sure they would burn my house down if they saw how bald he is tho !!!!!)

He was castrated this morning !! and is totally fine, thank god, I know the coat will change as a result . God help me ! (and him!)

Thanks again everyone !!

Bless you! ;)  Don't worry because you'll crack it because you are prepared to listen and learn - that's all that counts! :)

We are in Cornwall as well.  I will PM you with some details of Beardie Clubs.

Val

I tried the two lead groom today and it was so quick.  I have just bathed his undercarriage and I know when I try to dry him and comb his feet he is going to be a sod.  I attached one lead to his collar and to the bench and the other round his belly and to the door handle.  Wow undercarriage dry in 20 min's feet combed in 10 although he did dance around for a bit 'till his discovered he couldn't get far.

Thanks for the tip.  I will leave the flat groom for OH tonight as I have done half the work already.

Brilliant!  Really pleased for you.  Safe and secure for both dog and owner as we were saying on another thread.  No need for groomers to get bitten. ;)

If he dances while you're doing his feet, lift the other one just off the table.  So if you are drying the front foot nearest to you, lift the other front foot off the ground.  He'll have to keep 'your' foot on the ground to balance - until he works out....................... :)  Most will appreciate how quickly you finish are will be more tolerant.  Gundogs seem to be worst at having their feet dried - no idea why.

If OH prefers to groom on the floor, then that's fine.  We all have to do what's best for us, but my back wouldn't have stood that for just grooming my own, let alone the parlour dogs too! :)

Hi Val

He doesn't do the flat groom on the floor he lays the dogs out on the grooming table and brushes them up there.  We did have a rescue Beardie that we had to groom on the floor though, what a performance that was and I take my hat off to the OH for persevering.  The OH sat on the floor, back against the wall, dog on his back between other half's legs.  The dogs head was firmly held under one arm while the brushing went on.  Now that was hard work, but the poor dog did have issues with brushing, and bridges, and vinyl flooring and all sorts of other things.  Poor dog he really needed a shrink.

Riiiiiiiiiiight!  I see.  Well he has a choice now after watching you do a demonstration! ;)

Can you stand him on a table or somethink?
They are more likley to be responsive.
The grooming parlour my be able to sell you
a anti tangle spray. I would make a point of brushing
him every day. Not! open to debate! he will
learn, this has to be done "for his own good"
If not it could at a later date curse skin complaints.