I have a male black and tan cocker whose father was a golden and mother a blue roan. i am considering mating him with a orange roan whose father was orange and mother orange roan. what colour litter would probably result. could anybody see any problems with this.
kind regards
tina  

Hi Guest

Your black & tan carries recessive yellow (red/golden/orange), parti-colour and a 50:50 chance of carrying roan/ticking.  There's also the chance of carrying brown (liver) though unlikely as I believe it is not so common. His genotype is probably - at B Ee kk T Ssp.

Mating to the orange roan...most likely colours are red/golden, orange roan, black & tan, tricolour roan.  If both parents carry no-ticking then tri and red & white also possible and if the bitch carries black on the K locus, then black, black & white, blue roan also.

Also the rare "sable" could be carried by the bitch (but not the dog) and produced in the litter but I think this unlikely as it is uncommon....and if both parents carry brown, all these colours possible in the liver form.

Mismarks are also possible in any of these solid colours ie small amount of white on chest & legs.  Wouldn't be a problem unless the pup was destined for a show home.

I know there is a difference in roan and ticked coats but not sure of the difference in the inheritance of these so where I have said roan, either could be possibly.

Julie

Doesn't this class as solid to parti breeding, which shouldn't really be done?

Wow, what great colour combinations you have in Cockers! I would love to see pictures! Certainly in Cavaliers solid to parti breeding is often done, though with care and knowledger, to preserve the quality of the wholecolours, but I wouldn't know about Cockers! :-)

Hi Sandra

Only if your first criterion is producing colours to win in the showring.

Julie

Only if your first criterion is producing colours to win in the showring.

Not my breed but I would consider it "To fit the breed standard" rather than to win in the showring! :)
Though of course temperament and health would come first, my aim would be to make each dice fall the right way! ;)

The standard does allow for white on the chest which is the usual form of mismarking.  I think it's such a shame to discount such a large proportion of the breed for the sake of colour ;-)

Actually solid/parti matings do often produce solids with white markings in places other than the chest eg feet, muzzle etc which is contrary to the breed standard ;-) Ok maybe this is not relevant to those who are breeding only for the "pet market" but as it's not that unusual for the buyer of a pet puppy to decide to get into showing, breeders should inform their buyers that white markings (other than on the chest) will more or less rule a Cocker out for showing purposes. It's different in Working Cockers of course where markings are completely irrelevant (it's not clear whether the OP is talking about Working Cockers or show-type Cockers).

Jane

LucyD, you have an American Cocker don't you?

There cannot be all that many breeds that have as many acceptable colours as the Yankee.
1. Black.
2. Black & Tan.
3. Buff.
4. Sable.
5. Sable & White.
6. Black & White.
7. Red & White.
8. Brown.
9. Brown & White.
10 Brown & Tan.
11.Tricoloured, Black White & Tan.
12.Blue.
13. Blue Roan.

The last two are uncommon in the UK but seen more in the USA. There might even be more colours than I can remember.

Dawn R.

Hi nursey

If you incorportate blue and roan into the first 11 colours, there are many, many more possibilities!  But I don't see that blue is acceptable in the UK ie nose colour?

Julie

Hi Julie, thanks for that, I'm facinated by the subject of coat colour inheritance. Can you reccomend a good book for beginners or a website.

Dawn R.

I think Robinson's "Genetics for Dog Breeders" is a good book for starters.  Its a bit easier than Willis and has a good section on colour but of course a lot of the genetics on colour in books is now outdated with recent DNA sequencing.  A good website I would recommend is -

http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/Genetics/ColorGen.html

Be careful what you read on other websites though, there's a lot of duff information out there on colour...like everything else I suppose :-)

Julie

Hi Dawn, we also have Choc/White & tan, but other than that I think you have them all covered :)

Val, not sure what you meant in your comment about incorporating blue into the first 11 colours.  However, Blue Roan is a perfectly acceptable colour in Yankees, just not yet seen in the UK.  the noses are black, as in a Black/White parti colour.  We incorporate solid/parti hybrid breeding into our breeding programme.  Of course there is quite a high percentage of mismarks in the first generation, and undesirable markings can slip out a few generations down the line, but bearing in mind the small gene pool available in the UK for the breed, our aim is to breed the best dog possible, and the colour is corrected in future breeedings, wether we breed back parti or solid.  We currently have a young dog, who mated correctly will produce Choc, Choc/White, Black, Black/White, Red/White depending on what the bitch carries (or any combination in one litter)  He is choc/white, his sire is black.  Doing the hybrid matings opens up a fascinating  range of possibilities.
bye
Gwen

Hiya Gwen, I did think of that, but wasn't sure. It's really interesting I think.

Dawn R.

It's fascinating, and unless you are doing a very basic mating, like solid black to black, or buff to buff, you don't know for sure what you will get - Darcey whelped last night, and we knew we could get black, black/tan and buff,  but all 4 were black!  Just the luck of the draw :).  Looking forward to the choc/white boy being old enough to mate to Cecilia, as we can get any of the previously mentioned parti colours from this mating.  The introduction of the choc. possibilities from Prunellas trip to the USA has certianly widened out spectrum!  There are some excellent Yankee colour genetic info in Alvin Grossman's "Cocker Spaniel"  I have a copy  you can borrow, if you don't have one.
bye
Gwen
ps tell Kitty that her baby sister Daisy is almost as cute as she is.

>>not sure what you meant in your comment about incorporating blue into the first 11 colours

Hi Gwen, that was my comment.

I assumed blue to mean dilute as in the blue Great Dane with blue nose pigment.  If dilute does exist in the breed there are many more colours possible as this would then create 4 main base pigment; black, brown, blue and lilac with all the possible permutations in the patterns eg blue, tan & white; lilac & tan roan etc etc.  But if it's just roan, then you could add - choc roan; choc & tan roan, tri roan, orange (buff?) roan etc.

Julie

Hi julie,  OK, got what you meant now.  No, not dilute, just plain old Roan.   However, whilst I can see why the other colours you mention should be possible, as of course they are present in the English cocker, they do not occur in the American Cocker, or if they did they have vanished.    However, Blue Roan is a very "minority colour" in the breed, I only know of 1 kennel in the USA breeding them!  We do have a "looney fringe" over there trying to market "Merle" Yankees.  this is causing serious and understandalbe concern with the American Spaniel Club, who are trying to get AKC to act on the misrepresentation.  Big problem is, they are being registered as Sables to get roudn the regulations, which could lead to catastrophic future matings for the unwary.   The consenus of opinion about the Merle is that there have been several crosses to Shelties ( this seems obvious from some of the pics).
bye
Gwen

Yes, I did see some photos of merles when I did a seach!  Bit hard to believe that a spontaneous mutation just happened to have caused this. The same thing is happening in Chihuahuas I believe.

Julie

Val, not sure what you meant in your comment
Twasn't me Gwen!! ;)

Sorry Val, long day and going cross eyed at the posts!
bye
Gwen

Hi Dawn, Yes I have a Yankee but as he's a coatless wonder (buff, btw) I have never looked into the genetics of breeding them - he's just a cute fluffy pet! :-)

ps I have fallen in love with sable and white after seeing one at a show!

Hi Lucy,  it c an be a very glamorous colour, and there are a few nice ones around at the moment.  See if you can find some Canadian cocker sites for pics of  more gorgeous ones too!
bye
Gwen

I found a site once with about a dozen pics, but it'll only make me jealous. I'm jealous of any Yankee with a proper coat!!! :-D